HES Scheme, online application now open

construct06

applied for this today and got confirmation email so as far as i can see im ready to belt ahead.

just wonderin does anyone know how this is going to be carried out. terms seem very loose.

ive applied for and been granted approval for €2000 for drylining for instance.

now i just want to clarify can i just get as much drylining as i can get done by the builder for €2000. ie. no cost to me?

there isnt a mandatory requirement to get a BER assessment done so i dont know how this can be monitored? Also i presume the grant money can be used for making good/skimming the plasterboards...

does the builder/applicant have to supply receipts? how will they know if work has been done?

gizmo555

construct06 wrote: »

does the builder/applicant have to supply receipts? how will they know if work has been done?

After you get the grant approval you will be sent a "declaration of works" form in the post. When the works are complete, you send this in to claim the grant. I presume there is a section for the contractor (who must be registered with the SEI to participate in the scheme) to complete confirming the work done and the price paid.

The SEI will also be carrying out spot checks on some of the houses for which grants are approved.

sydthebeat

gizmo555 wrote: »

After you get the grant approval you will be sent a "declaration of works" form in the post. When the works are complete, you send this in to claim the grant. I presume there is a section for the contractor (who must be registered with the SEI to participate in the scheme) to complete confirming the work done and the price paid.

The SEI will also be carrying out spot checks on some of the houses for which grants are approved.

SEI have not stated what level of inspections they will be doing....
eg 0.001 % is a level....

This scheme is disgraceful.

€50 million euros of taxpayers money is being dished out to contractors who need to show no competencies other than a tax clearance cert and have insurance (im not talking about qualified plumbers here!).

There is no professional input to ensure best practises are being adhered to. The document that SEI refer contractors to adhere to regarding drylining is an extremely poorly writen and researched UK based document.

I will post a lot more on this later...

but to anyone looking to get drylining done... DO NOT use polyurethane, polyiso or phenolic foam boards!!!!

gizmo555

sydthebeat wrote: »

€50 million euros of taxpayers money is being dished out to contractors who need to show no competencies other than a tax clearance cert and have insurance (im not talking about qualified plumbers here!)

You're absolutely right that the fact that a contractor is registered with the SEI says nothing at all about their competence. From the grant scheme Terms & Conditions:

The fact of registration on the Registered Contractors List for the Scheme does not infer any warranty or endorsement of that contractor by SEI.

The fact that a grant is available will bring all sorts of cowboys out of the woodwork.

Anyone applying for a grant should take particular care to check that their chosen contractor is reputable, competent, and has a track record in the business.

BoozyBabe

sydthebeat wrote: »

but to anyone looking to get drylining done... DO NOT use polyurethane, polyiso or phenolic foam boards!!!!

Ok, I think this is what we're planning on doing in our new build.
100mm cavity, so 60mm cavity insulation & then putting insulation boards on the inside of the external walls also.
I'm assuming the latter is what drylining is.

I've no idea what type of boards we're intending on putting in, cos our research hasn't gotten that far yet, but what's whrong with the boards you've listed, or what type of boards should we install?

What is the overall consensus on drylining?
Will it also help with airtightness, etc?

I'm told we don't want to build a bigger cavity than 100mm :rolleyes:, but I want more than 60mm insulation.

Just seen the comment, so I thought I'd look for a bit of feedback.
Thanks,
BB

gizmo555

BoozyBabe wrote: »

Ok, I think this is what we're planning on doing in our new build.

Just so you're aware, only houses built prior to 2006 are eligible for this grant.

BoozyBabe

Oh I know,
I wasn't talking about the grant.
Just that we're planning on drylining our new build, & so I was wondering why STB was warning against those types of boards, & looking for peoples general opinion of drylining
Thanks

Smcgie

Syd... Can I ask why you don't recommend PIR / Phenolic boards?

sydthebeat

BoozyBabe wrote: »

Ok, I think this is what we're planning on doing in our new build.
100mm cavity, so 60mm cavity insulation & then putting insulation boards on the inside of the external walls also.
I'm assuming the latter is what drylining is.

I've no idea what type of boards we're intending on putting in, cos our research hasn't gotten that far yet, but what's whrong with the boards you've listed, or what type of boards should we install?

What is the overall consensus on drylining?
Will it also help with airtightness, etc?

I'm told we don't want to build a bigger cavity than 100mm :rolleyes:, but I want more than 60mm insulation.

Just seen the comment, so I thought I'd look for a bit of feedback.
Thanks,
BB

BB

i was specifically referring to drylining existing dwellings above....

if you intend doing it in a new build my advise is to ensure the drylining insulation doesnt exceed 0.5 that of the cavity insulation...

smcgie...

i havent time to go into it in the detail i want right now...
but have a god read of this months construct ireland mag and specifically teh 'breaking the mould' article

i write up more soon....

Smcgie

Thanks Syd I imagine its in relation to Thermal bridging.

sinnerboy

no - as Syd says very good article in CI - the primary risk is interstitial condensation i.e. condensation forming on the face of the wall behind the insulation layer

Let me pick up on syd's reservations in this way ....

As an Architectural Technician on a house project ( new build or re furb ) - once planning permission is in place .... I would typically spend around 3-5 weeks in preparing detailed documents for tendering . Drawings and specifications .

I would then spend the next 9-12 months regularly visiting site - to ensure that those documents ARE ADHERED TO . Approx 60-70% of my professional energies are spent at this task . It can be tough going .

SEI have done "the clever bit" ( only one can even pick holes in that as Syd has alluded to ) . The have produced "the spec" . Making specifications a reality is quite another matter - which SEI are absenting themselves from

Sure , they will do spot checks . Ask them to clarify this - really coy response
They are targeting 30,000 homes ..... what level of spot check can be expected ?

Look at the banner headline over the list of contractors that Gizmo has pointed out . Read the detailed SEI spec's carefully folks , because included in there SEI further expressly and clearly disown any responsibility for any harm arising out of this scheme .

sinnerboy

http://www.sei.ie/Grants/Home_Energy_Saving_Scheme/contractor/National%20-%20Guidelines.pdf

SEI and its Agents do not provide any warranty or guarantee concerning the completeness,
effectiveness, reliability, accuracy or otherwise of such standards or any work carried out on foot of
such standards. The provision of goods and/or services by Contractor to Customers of this Scheme
is entirely a matter between the Contractor and the Customer. SEI and its Agents accept no liability
or responsibility, whether for breach of contract, negligence, health and safety violations or
otherwise, in respect of any dispute, claim or cause of action arising out of, or in relation to, any
product, equipment, work, system or installation supplied or carried out by the installer under the
scheme. The Installer is entirely responsible for all such matters.

.

muffler

But there would be a responsibility on the approved contractor to ensure the works are carried to a proper standard.

gizmo555

muffler wrote: »

But there would be a responsibility on the approved contractor to ensure the works are carried to a proper standard.

And in order to get registered with the SEI, contractors must provide proof of insurance.

If a problem arises, it seems entirely reasonable to me that it would remain between the client and contractor. I don't see why the SEI should be liable just because it part-paid for the work.

It's your house - choose your contractor carefully and caveat emptor!

sydthebeat

muffler wrote: »

But there would be a responsibility on the approved contractor to ensure the works are carried to a proper standard.

unfortunately SEI are purporting the 'proper standard' to be based on a UK document from the energy savings trust (CE 17/GPG138).
http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/business/Global-Data/Publications/Internal-wall-insulation-in-existing-housing-CE17-GPG138

This, in my opinion, is a very poorly written document. it is interesting to note that in one section they suggest that the air gap behind the insulation MAY need to be ventilated. They suggest the following actions:

1. The internal wall surface should be checked for
dampness and remedial action taken if any moisture
is present.
2. If dampness (and
mould) is caused by condensation, the dwelling
may require improved ventilation and heating in
addition to insulation.
3. Solid brickwork and stonework may be damp from
rain penetration. External pointing or rendering can
sometimes reduce moisture penetration, but if any
doubt remains the best method of internal insulation
is to construct an inner frame of timber or metal
located at least 30mm clear of the masonry wall,
as described under ‘Method 3’ in section 3.3. The
resulting air space may also require ventilation, and
this should be taken into account when determining
the new U-value of the construction.
4. Plaster or fibreboard linings to timber-framed or
metal-framed walls should be removed to check
the condition of the structure, and to allow any rot
or corrosion of the frames to be treated. Insulation
can be placed within the frame and an additional
insulated lining can also be fixed over the frame.


Now how many of the above do you think will happen???
What makes a 'contractor' competent to determine the source of moisture ingress?


look at the paragraph on interstitial condensation....
6.5 Interstitial condensation
Air inside a dwelling tends to carry more moisture
than the same volume of air outside. If inside
air is able to leak from the dwelling through the
construction, the air cools quickly and can cause
condensation on any surface that is on the cold
side of this insulation. This can lead to mould or
deterioration of timber in contact with the insulation.
It is therefore important to separate the inside air
from the insulation by applying a ‘vapour barrier’, also
known as a ‘vapour control layer’, to the warm side of
the insulation.
Internal wall insulation in existing housing (2008 edition) 13
Design considerations
A vapour control layer can be achieved by using
polyethylene sheet or treated paper facing to mineral
wool quilts, or with an integral layer, e.g. in thermal
laminate boards. In all cases, the weak points are at
the joints between the sheets or boards and where
pipes or other services penetrate the lining. Careful
attention should be paid to the sealing and lapping of
joints and sealing around penetrations. Plasterboard
manufacturers supply a plasterboard primer that
helps control vapour penetration at the surface of the
board, but this should be an addition to and not an
alternative to polyethylene sheet or an integral vapour
control layer.
It is also recommended that mechanical extraction to
bathrooms/kitchens should be installed in addition
to vapour control measures as part of the renovation
works. For damp, south-facing masonry walls less
than 250mm thick, the cavity between the new
frame and wall should be ventilated to the outside to
prevent summer condensation (see BR262 ‘Thermal
Insulation: avoiding risks’).



so lets take a typical 1900 cottage.

The contractor is expected to

A. advise the client of the best and most economically advantageous course of action to reduce energy costs..... are they competent to do this??

B. the contractor is supposed to undertake an invasive investigation of the structure to discover and determine any source of moisture ingress or build up.

C. the contractor is supposed to determine if the method of dry lining requires ventilation behind in order to counteract the risk of interstitial condensation. The contractors is then expected to determine the best course of action to provide this ventilation.

D. the contractor is expected to calculate the u value of the resultant wall, with the view to reaching a value as close to 0.27 as possible. Therefore they have to be educated and informed in regard to TGD L and BR 443.

E. The contractor is expected to determine if, as a resultant of the works, wet areas require additional mechanical extraction. They need obviously to be competent in the installation of these vents and, of course, charge for same.

F. They are expected to create a non-broken continuous vapour control layer within the dwelling. This is extremely difficult to achieve without proper detailing. It is akin to creating a tank for a swimming pool. Any gap or hole in this layer will act like a pin hole in a dam, with moisture laden air focused and driven to these areas.

G. This is all without being expected to properly install the insulation. the insulation is expected to be installed in such manner as not to allow any air ingress into the dwelling from behind the dry lining. All junctions are expected to be properly sealed, floors / walls, ceiling walls, openings, service (m+e) opes, pipe opes etc.


In doing this 'proper' installation, it inherently means composite plasterboards or 'thermal linings' (cosy board type) dry lining is completely out. unfortunately this WILL be seen as teh easiest form of dry lining to use. CPBs plaster daubed onto existing walls will be the norm, and this is an EXTREMELY dangerous form of construction, in my opinion. There WILL BE no continuous vapour control layer. There WILL BE air ingress from behind the insulation. There WILL BE no ventilated air space behind the insulation.

Therefore, in my opinion, only breathable insulation with an intelligent breather membrane on the cold side of the insulation should be used, if dry lining internally. The sub strata for this lining should be selected to compliment the existing construction. Obviously external insulation is a much better option, but cost is a big factor here. Either rockwool batts, fibre glass batts or even expanded polystyrene. The loss of theoretical performance u value is counter balanced by a much healthier and low risk construction method. A water based breathable paint should also be chosen as a finish. This creates a construction that allows the warm humid air within a building 'breathe' out through the construction, while at the same time, preventing external moisture ingress at the first point of contact.....


whew....

more to follow....

sinnerboy

gizmo555 wrote: »

And in order to get registered with the SEI, contractors must provide proof of insurance.

If a problem arises, it seems entirely reasonable to me that it would remain between the client and contractor. I don't see why the SEI should be liable just because it part-paid for the work.

It's your house - choose your contractor carefully and caveat emptor!

Insurance - EL/PL yes . Insurance for defective works - no .

gizmo555

sinnerboy wrote: »

Insurance - EL/PL yes . Insurance for defective works - no .

Yep - you're quite right. My mistake - even more caveat emptor!

sydthebeat

gizmo555 wrote: »

Yep - you're quite right. My mistake - even more caveat emptor!

caveta emptor is all fine and well...

but in this case SEI are providing the clients with a list of contractors that THEY have deemed competent.

I think its disgraceful how they then go and 'do a pontious pilate' by disclaimining any responsibility what so ever for the standard and end result of any action...

i mean... read this statement carefully....
"SEI and its Agents accept no liability
or responsibility, whether for breach of contract, negligence, health and safety violations or
otherwise, in respect of any dispute, claim or cause of action arising out of, or in relation to, any
product, equipment, work, system or installation supplied or carried out by the installer under the
scheme. The Installer is entirely responsible for all such matters."


caveat emptor indeed..... people are being asked to buy into a rudderless boat on very choppy waters.....

gizmo555

sydthebeat wrote: »

caveta emptor is all fine and well...

but in this case SEI are providing the clients with a list of contractors that THEY have deemed competent.

They are not. They explicitly state in the grant T&Cs that "the fact of registration on the Registered Contractors List for the Scheme does not infer any warranty or endorsement of that contractor by SEI."

That seems pretty clear to me . . .

sinnerboy

SEI have deemed them competent ( by getting them to "sign up" to the SEI spec) - but disclaim responsibility.

Only in Ireland ........

muffler

sydthebeat wrote: »

The Installer is entirely responsible for all such matters.

This is the part that I see the problem with. The SEI have more than covered their asses but how is the ordinary Joe Soap going to be compensated for a shoddy job - and yes there will be some shoddy work done if grant aided work in the past is anything to go on.

gizmo555

sinnerboy wrote: »

SEI have deemed them competent ( by getting them to "sign up" to the SEI spec) - but disclaim responsibility.

Only in Ireland ........

I'm sorry, I really don't see what the issue is here. If you want to get the work done, the state via SEI will make a financial contribution. I don't see why this should absolve individual grant applicants from taking personal responsibility for who they get to work on their houses. Only in Ireland would people expect someone else to take responsibility for their choices.

As far as I can see, the main reason for the register is to make sure all the contractors have tax clearance and that grant funding isn't going to tax dodgers. SEI do not in any way deem registered contractors to be competent and explicitly say they don't.

John mac

gizmo555 wrote: »

I'm sorry, I really don't see what the issue is here. If you want to get the work done, the state via SEI will make a financial contribution. I don't see why this should absolve individual grant applicants from taking personal responsibility for who they get to work on their houses. Only in Ireland would people expect someone else to take responsibility for their choices.

As far as I can see, the main reason for the register is to make sure all the contractors have tax clearance and that grant funding isn't going to tax dodgers. SEI do not in any way deem registered contractors to be competent and explicitly say they don't.

Quallity of workmanship, i think is the main point .

any joe public can register (as long as they have tax clearance, and insurance )

this does not mean they can do the job properly.

I am not saying that all people registered are not competent tradesmen, but there will be some.

people getting the jobs done will look at the list on the sei site and presume

they will be getting people that have been approved to do the job based on

their ability and qualifications. not just insurance and tax compliance.


Thats what i think anyway!

Builderfromhell

Just to remind everyone, anyone can set themselves up as a builder, eco builder, Energy consultant etc. without the necessary skills to be competent at what they do.

muffler

^^^ Noticed that

sydthebeat

and just to clarify... i am mainly referring to dry lining contractors...

to install heating systems and upgrades a level of qualification from city and guilds is required. For gas, RGI registration is required. For external insulation the system must be NSAI'ed and teh installer trained by the manufacturer. For cavity wall the system must be NSAI'ed.

For attic insulation, at ceiling and rafter level, no competency is required. Fair enough you might say, it isnt rocket science, but a level of understanding of ventilation and condensation (basic building regs) should be required IMHO.

However, dry lining requires a 'contractor' to show no competency. This is the dangerous part of the scheme, in my opinion.

lphchild

Just on a side note - there's only one contractor currently listed for Dublin doing cavity insulation.. surely that's not right?

Also what's the point in giving fixed amounts without some kind of cost indications, price per ft or whatever. I've seen a grant aided scheme running for elderly people getting relevant upgrades to their house in which one contractor is 'recommended' for a particular area and charges way over the odds because of this and you have no choice but to go with him.

Anyone care to guestimate cost of insulating a roof roughly 30ftx30ft
and installing a new appropriate gas boiler and control panel? These should be pretty quantifiable and really should be given as a guide?

muffler

lphchild wrote: »

Just on a side note - there's only one contractor currently listed for Dublin doing cavity insulation.. surely that's not right?

Dont know what list you were looking at but the list here contains maybe 100 or more

lphchild

In Dublin doing Cavity Insulation specifically there's only 3?

muffler

Yeah I see what you mean. Id imagine thats a typo as I see 2 contractors listed in my area who currently provide cavity insulation and the box is left unticked after their names.

sydthebeat

muffler wrote: »

Yeah I see what you mean. Id imagine thats a typo as I see 2 contractors listed in my area who currently provide cavity insulation and the box is left unticked after their names.

maybe not...

the requirement to get onto the list for cavity wall insulation is that the installer must be NSAI approved....
http://www.nsai.ie/uploads/file/Issue%2038%20March%2009.doc

theres only 7 dublin based installers on that list !!!!!!!

timmer3

sydthebeat wrote: »

Therefore, in my opinion, only breathable insulation with an intelligent breather membrane on the cold side of the insulation should be used, if dry lining internally. The sub strata for this lining should be selected to compliment the existing construction. Obviously external insulation is a much better option, but cost is a big factor here. Either rockwool batts, fibre glass batts or even expanded polystyrene. The loss of theoretical performance u value is counter balanced by a much healthier and low risk construction method. A water based breathable paint should also be chosen as a finish. This creates a construction that allows the warm humid air within a building 'breathe' out through the construction, while at the same time, preventing external moisture ingress at the first point of contact.....

syd i'm very interested in what you wrote about drylining techniques. i'm currently rennovating a mass concrete end of terraced home and i had intended to go with Kingspan K18 boards with battens etc. i was just at the point of buying but i'm thinking twice now after reading this. i was going to install it myself having done a lot of research etc. it seems to be very difficult to get a problem free dry-lining installation using these products. i had an idea and i'd be very grateful of an expert opinion. i've read a lot about sheeps wool insulation and intend to use this for the attic. the thing i like most about it is that it is hygroscopic and can transmit moisture through itself with good breathability and without losing its ability to insulate. i haven't read about it being used as a wall insulator, but i'm imagining it could be installed between 100mm horizontal joists fixed to the external walls (vertical joists would cause sagging). i had previously decided to go for 80+12.5mm plasterboards, so i'm not too worried about the lost room space. then apply a plasterboard on top with the breathable paint as you suggested. are there special types of plasterboard that will help with the breathability? is this a stupid idea? it sounds like a very implementable project for a DIYer.
i like the sound of letting moisture breath in and out of the house rather than trying to trap it between insulation and the walls. the concrete walls in the house are 65 years old and seem to be quite porous, apparently there was a shortage of materials around the time of the war and the concrete mix used was a bit of a compromise!

in terms of a cost comparison, i was quoted €88 (inc VAT) per board of K18 @ 92.5mm by a local builders providers, for 2.88m2 area = €30 per m2.
The sheeps wool insulation works out @ €17.80 per m2 (inc VAT) for 100mm thickness. the cost of joists and plasterboard would be extra but not massively extra. no doubt the Kingspan would perform better but am very willing to trade on performance for better health and less problems down the line.

sinnerboy

You can see a good example here - sheepswool was used in this case

http://constructireland.ie/Articles/Sustainable-Building-Technology/Ecological-renovation-moves-F-rated-hollow-block-house-up-to-A3.html

timmer3

thanks sinnerboy. that is great to be able to see an example of it working well. i'll be aiming to do something like this. thanks again.