Legal Tender

Fey!

I'm looking to settle an argument.

Is it illegal for a person/business/state body to refuse a payment of cash in Euros, which is, IIRC, the legal tender of our state?

If not, then how should a person without a credit card, cheque book, or a laser card pay for an item?

I know that the answer obvious answer would be bank drafts/postal orders, but I'm looking for other alternatives, if they exist.

Thanks.

D.

servicecharge

Stamps are legal tender I believe.

JTER

I believe it must be accepted as legal tender to satisfy a debt.

So if you were seeking to purchase something with cash this would not apply generally.

Someone with more knowledge on it will come along and correct me Im sure, but thats all I remember from when I asked someone a few years back.

Fey!

Thanks for the replies.

Just as an example; one of the places where I've seen "no cash" signs is in the Customs VRT office. Technically, tax could be considered a debt to the state. So, how can they not accept cash?

Johnny Utah

JTER wrote: »

I believe it must be accepted as legal tender to satisfy a debt.

A 'Utah man' (not me I swear:o) had an innovative idea when he went to pay a motoring fine:

http://www.redorbit.com/news/oddities/107894/utah_man_pays_82_fine_in_pennies/index.html


Court officials are apparently not amused- no sense of humour if you ask me!

r14

The Economic and Monetary Union Act, 1998 (http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1998/en/act/pub/0038/index.html)

s 10: No person, other than the Central Bank of Ireland and such persons as may be designated by the Minister by order, shall be obliged to accept more than 50 coins denominated in euro or in cent in any single transaction.

That should stop you paying for things with a bucket of 1 cent coins.

I'm not so sure about people refusing to accept notes. I had heard that shops don't have to accept 100, 200 and 500 euro notes because of the risk of forgery but that is completely second hand information with no legal basis.

dermot_sheehan

Legal Tender simply means its a defence to a civil action to recover a debt to state that you tendered legal tender. It exists in euro bank notes and up to 50 euro coins.

The obligation to accept legal tender only arises once the debt occurs. So for example if you consumed a meal in a restaurant and offered cash as payment, and this was refused. You would be within your rights to leave, if the restaurant sued you you would put as a defence that legal tender was offered. It doesn't mean you have a right to demand a service provider accept cash if no debt has been created.

jpwicklow

gabhain is correct it really only pertains to the settlement of debt.

On a matter of interest as well, when bank robbers steal new cash from a sorting office or the place of origin they are stealing merely pieces of paper. new bank notes, which are promissory notes like all others, do not have value until consideration passes from the promisee to the promisor!!! Whereas that has already happened with used bank notes. not to mention that they are traceable!

Carawaystick

I wouldn't say it's illegal to refuse legal tender in payment of a debt, but as far as I'm aware, the debt would be considered to be repaid/cancelled

I don't know how revenue not taking cash stands regarding a debt as such?

Jev/N

Fey! wrote: »

I know that the answer obvious answer would be bank drafts/postal orders, but I'm looking for other alternatives, if they exist.

Take a leaf out of Cartman's book and try to pay with pubes

Red Sleeping Beauty

For what it's worth...Many English shops refuse Scottish printed notes which are of course Sterling which is their "legal" tender. Same with NI notes as well as that is still Sterling. Shops in the West of Scotland should accept NI notes no bother.*

Not sure if this is relevant but I think there's still a few ol' "English" laws in place in Ireland but perhaps not enforced.

Any shop can refuse to deal with you as far as I know so if you walk into Spar to buy 20 blue Mr Spar can say "no, I'm not serving you, leave my premises" - right to refuse admission or something I think. I'm not sure on any of this as I ain't a lawyer or law student.

* there's a proposed law in the works to try and make it illegal for Scottish sterling to be refused in England.

Our man in Havana

I have had no problems spending NI sterling notes in Birmingham airport.

Now I have seen signs saying that €200 and €500 would not be accepted in places like Lidl and Aldi. Say you went to pay for a trolley of shopping with a €200 note and they refused it, could you walk out with the goods?

axer

Bond-007 wrote: »

Now I have seen signs saying that €200 and €500 would not be accepted in places like Lidl and Aldi. Say you went to pay for a trolley of shopping with a €200 note and they refused it, could you walk out with the goods?

No since you do not own the goods.

Our man in Havana

How is a restaurant different then?

axer

Bond-007 wrote: »

How is a restaurant different then?

Goods and service already consumed thus you are already in debt before you pay.

freefromgov

Carawaystick wrote: »

I wouldn't say it's illegal to refuse legal tender in payment of a debt, but as far as I'm aware, the debt would be considered to be repaid/cancelled

I don't know how revenue not taking cash stands regarding a debt as such?

That's an interesting comment there Carawaystick. are you implying that there is no debt in place for the revenue and thats why they wont take cash ???

Trojan911

axer wrote: »

No since you do not own the goods.

Interesting point, however, could it be argued successfully that since you have placed the goods into the trolley you have assumed ownership prior to offering payment?

The refusal of the store to accept your €200 note & you leaving with the goods would not generate an allegation of theft as there was no dishonest intent on your behalf & should then be treated as a civil dispute between you & the store. This is what I would argue.

FruitLover

Trojan911 wrote: »

The refusal of the store to accept your €200 note & you leaving with the goods would not generate an allegation of theft as there was no dishonest intent on your behalf & should then be treated as a civil dispute between you & the store.

I doubt the police officer that the shop would inevitably call would agree...

r14

Trojan911 wrote: »

Interesting point, however, could it be argued successfully that since you have placed the goods into the trolley you have assumed ownership prior to offering payment?

You definitely would not be able to argue that you owned the goods once you placed them in your trolley. Having the goods on the shelf is an invitation to treat not an offer so you cannot accept it by picking the goods up. The offer is only made when you go to the till to pay and the shop owner is completely free to reject your offer for any reason. You don't own the goods until he accepts your offer to buy them and you pay.

Trojan911 wrote: »

The refusal of the store to accept your €200 note & you leaving with the goods would not generate an allegation of theft as there was no dishonest intent on your behalf & should then be treated as a civil dispute between you & the store. This is what I would argue.

They could still get you for making off without payment (s8 Criminal Justice (Theft and Fraud Offences) Act, 2001) because you obviously knew payment was expected if you tried to pay.

axer

Trojan911 wrote: »

Interesting point, however, could it be argued successfully that since you have placed the goods into the trolley you have assumed ownership prior to offering payment?

Nope, you do not own the goods until you either consume them or pay for them.

Trojan911 wrote: »

The refusal of the store to accept your €200 note & you leaving with the goods would not generate an allegation of theft as there was no dishonest intent on your behalf & should then be treated as a civil dispute between you & the store. This is what I would argue.

The store would not be leaving you with the goods if it did not accept your payment - it would take the goods off of you. If you leave the premises without payment for the goods (even if payment has been refused) then you are stealing the goods.

Scawgeen

Fey! wrote: »

I'm looking to settle an argument.

Is it illegal for a person/business/state body to refuse a payment of cash in Euros, which is, IIRC, the legal tender of our state?

If not, then how should a person without a credit card, cheque book, or a laser card pay for an item?

I know that the answer obvious answer would be bank drafts/postal orders, but I'm looking for other alternatives, if they exist.

Thanks.

D.

I went in to my local bank today to purchase a bank draft, it's many years since I last had to use a Draft as payment. It seems you can no longer just go in off the street and purchase one. I had to lodge the cash into my account and then withdraw it, they can then give me my Bank Draft. Corazy Corazy world we live in.

Our man in Havana

Would there be a possible defamation action if other people witness the stores refusal of a legal tender note namely a €200 note?

Keith186

Fey! wrote: »

I'm looking to settle an argument.

Is it illegal for a person/business/state body to refuse a payment of cash in Euros, which is, IIRC, the legal tender of our state?

If not, then how should a person without a credit card, cheque book, or a laser card pay for an item?

I know that the answer obvious answer would be bank drafts/postal orders, but I'm looking for other alternatives, if they exist.

Thanks.

D.

It depends on the contract that you made. They could make it a condition of the offer they made to you that you must pay via debit/credit card.
Or if you made them an offer they can accept on the condition that you pay via this method. They don't legally have to accept cash.

Trojan911

Interesting replies people & thanks. UK law must slightly differ from Irish law.

Quaver

Bond-007 wrote: »

Would there be a possible defamation action if other people witness the stores refusal of a legal tender note namely a €200 note?

Highly unlikely, although Ive never heard of it happening. It would be virtually impossible to prove the defamation elements (publication, identification, defamatory effect) and the store could just argue that it's their store policy.

axer

Bond-007 wrote: »

Would there be a possible defamation action if other people witness the stores refusal of a legal tender note namely a €200 note?

How so? It is neither embarrassing nor a false accusation.

Our man in Havana

If they said "your money is no good here!" that is surely defamatory?

If other people overheard that and particulary if they knew the person their opinion of them could be lowered.

Quaver

Bond-007 wrote: »

If they said "your money is no good here!" that is surely defamatory?

If other people overheard that and particulary if they knew the person their opinion of them could be lowered.

I fail to see how that could be defamatory at all. Anyway, in a shop it's a matter of contract law. So, A offers to buy the item at X price, B accepts that offer on terms which provide that they will not accept payment in €200/€500 notes, most shops display that they will not accept certain payment methods.

Red Sleeping Beauty

freefromgov wrote: »

That's an interesting comment there Carawaystick. are you implying that there is no debt in place for the revenue and thats why they wont take cash ???

There's some people in the United STate of America that claim there's no law that states they've to pay tax. Have a search for it there.

Trojan911 wrote: »

Interesting replies people & thanks. UK law must slightly differ from Irish law.

Irish Law is based on UK law, or it was. There's still a few aul' laws kickin about that haven't been written out.

Bond-007 wrote: »

If they said "your money is no good here!" that is surely defamatory?

If other people overheard that and particulary if they knew the person their opinion of them could be lowered.

The state owns the money , not you, I think....

Victor

Alan Rouge wrote: »

There's some people in the United STate of America that claim there's no law that states they've to pay tax. Have a search for it there.

These people being known as tax evaders and/or scammers.

Carawaystick

freefromgov wrote: »

That's an interesting comment there Carawaystick. are you implying that there is no debt in place for the revenue and thats why they wont take cash ???

I'm only wondering aloud. I'd imagine based on no experience whatsoever, that a district court judge wouldn't look kindly on a revenue employee explaining that you offered to pay them tax but they wouldn't take cash...

I mean, if you owed income tax, they would take cash.