Thermal Imaging and insulation

PeteHeat

Hi sinnerboy,

I agree it would be better if the subject of basic heat loss ergo higher emmissions had been addressed much earlier in the upgrade / grants process.

Now we have a joke Greener Homes Scheme with inefficient products still listed some do not even have spare parts available but they remain listed.

A further joke is the BER scheme, "Trust me says the developer I used top quality insulation" why are there no spot checks using thermal Imaging ?

The new joke is the insulation scheme, if the very people who really need the upgrades had the money to begin with most would have upgraded their homes anyway.

The small grants available will not encourage the many pensioners with homes that need insulation to have the work carried out because they simply can't afford it.

A chicken and egg situation, if they spend on insulation they don't have the money to buy fuel.

Top heavy with administration a typical Govt solution.

sydthebeat

PeteHeat wrote: »

why are there no spot checks using thermal Imaging ?

.

I have read this in a few different threads and id like to comment on it...

A thermal imaging survey is an extremely useful tool for find problems with the installation of insulation products... thats all. They are not a magic wand....

what it DOES NOT do is:
1. give you a construction u value
2. tell you the quality of the installation
3. identify the cause of the problem, just the result.

in the posters example above a 'spot check' using thermal imaging will not tell you if the developer used 'high quality' insulation or 'low quality insulation'.
Look, people are already complaining about the costs of getting a BER done on a new house.... imagine what they would say if they were charged for every site inspection an assessor had to make to visually confirm the type, depth and location of every insulation in the build.... the average €250 cost would probably be a 5 or 6 multiple.....

Whoever makes that joke about the scheme clearly doesnt understand the alternative.

yes i completely agree that the scheme is deeply flawed, but having to depend on the word of the client is endemic in all aspects of irish industry.
If you want a quote for car insurance you do not have to back up anything you say with documents... however if you lie and for any resason your audited, you can say goodbye to your insurance. Likewise if the developer lies on the questionairre, and is audited by SEI...... his BER is nullified and he has to pay to rectify the situation, or even worse if it happens through a court case.....

PeteHeat

sydthebeat wrote: »

I have read this in a few different threads and id like to comment on it...

A thermal imaging survey is an extremely useful tool for find problems with the installation of insulation products... thats all. They are not a magic wand....

what it DOES NOT do is:
1. give you a construction u value
2. tell you the quality of the installation
3. identify the cause of the problem, just the result.

in the posters example above a 'spot check' using thermal imaging will not tell you if the developer used 'high quality' insulation or 'low quality insulation'.
Look, people are already complaining about the costs of getting a BER done on a new house.... imagine what they would say if they were charged for every site inspection an assessor had to make to visually confirm the type, depth and location of every insulation in the build.... the average €250 cost would probably be a 5 or 6 multiple.....

Whoever makes that joke about the scheme clearly doesnt understand the alternative.

yes i completely agree that the scheme is deeply flawed, but having to depend on the word of the client is endemic in all aspects of irish industry.
If you want a quote for car insurance you do not have to back up anything you say with documents... however if you lie and for any resason your audited, you can say goodbye to your insurance. Likewise if the developer lies on the questionairre, and is audited by SEI...... his BER is nullified and he has to pay to rectify the situation, or even worse if it happens through a court case.....

I think this joker with close on 4 decades of experience with building standards and regulations has a good understanding of the alternative.

Using the Courts as the ultimate sanction is a real joke, by the time the audit takes place (If Ever) what chance of getting a developer in liquidation to pay anything ?

Thermal imaging is a very useful tool, not as expensive as they used to be and a lot easier to use and read the results.

Take the best insulation and install it badly eg gaps between the sheets, the walls, chopped with a trowel at junctions, the best windows with gaps around them (airtight ?), attic insulation fluffed up.

Of course there must be a balance, the vendor never likes the cost even €50.00 is too much, on the other hand the purchaser depends on the cert so why not add a touch of quality control on the installation.

BTW I have not offered a thermal imaging service for some ten years and do not offer BER services.

sinnerboy

PeteHeat wrote: »

Thermal imaging is a very useful tool, not as expensive as they used to be

So how much for a 3 Bed Semi , say in Lucan ?

PeteHeat wrote: »

Of course there must be a balance, the vendor never likes the cost even €50.00 is too much, on the other hand the purchaser depends on the cert so why not add a touch of quality control on the installation. BTW I have not offered a thermal imaging service for some ten years and do not offer BER services.

So you are suggesting you offer this for €50 ? - quick PM me - I can find you lots of work at that rate :rolleyes:

By the way I take you work to these guidelines

http://www.bsria.co.uk/services/compliance/thermal-imaging/

You oberve all the following ?

you work in darkness - i.e. no daylight
you take at least 3 hours to complete the task
you ensure no direct solar radiation has struck the building for at least one hour before you start
you ensure the building is dry before you start
you ensure a temp differntial internal / external of min 5K - for a period on 24hours before the test
you ensure that wind speeds do not exceed 10mph during your test

.

PeteHeat

Hi sinnerboy,

With all due respect i request that you read the previous slowly, I Do Not offer either Thermal Imaging or BER services.

I know how Thermal Imaging works, I was one of the first to use it in this country, and Yes I know when it works best and how to allow for any of the items on your list in the final analysis.

My point being it is a tool that has a place in rating the efficiency of the insulation in buildings simply because the majority of the insulation is covered up before the energy rating takes place.

If you have a better way of seeing through walls I am interested.

sinnerboy

No - no xray specs .

So if not for €50 a pop - what € would tempt you back to do something you have not done for 10 years ?

Really - how practical is this for most punters who resent paying anything for "the piece of paper"

PeteHeat

Hi sinnerboy,

We are way off topic apologies to O.P.

Reason why is I moved on.

Honestly can't say how much I would charge today I reckon you could buy a camera today for what I was getting back then, technology moves on.


Really - how practical is this for most punters who resent paying anything for "the piece of paper"

Your question kinda makes my point, many of the people who have to get the piece of paper do resent the cost because they don't see any value in it.

Of course the person who relies on the document (purchaser, leaseholder etc) are the ones who depend on the accuracy of the content.

As syd..... pointed out the results depend on the clients word, fair enough but very few clients are present for the full installation of the materials so they are depending on trades to install the insulation correctly.

The chain of command can be a very long one, none of us want to see disputes over an installation years after it was completed which is why I think a method of checking the installation should be used.

sydthebeat

PeteHeat wrote: »

Hi sinnerboy,

With all due respect i request that you read the previous slowly, I Do Not offer either Thermal Imaging or BER services.

I know how Thermal Imaging works, I was one of the first to use it in this country, and Yes I know when it works best and how to allow for any of the items on your list in the final analysis.

My point being it is a tool that has a place in rating the efficiency of the insulation in buildings simply because the majority of the insulation is covered up before the energy rating takes place.

If you have a better way of seeing through walls I am interested.

pete,

im going to open a new thread re thermal imaging and we can continue teh discussion there

sydthebeat

PeteHeat wrote: »

My point being it is a tool that has a place in rating the efficiency of the insulation in buildings simply because the majority of the insulation is covered up before the energy rating takes place.
.

pete, a couple of questions.....

can you explain how the TI (thermal imaging) can be used in "rating the efficiency" for the insulation, surely it just comments on the installation of the insulation. AFAIK TI does not measure heat transfer therefore cannot comment on the efficiency of the insulation.

second question, as DEAP has a facility to input specific thermal bridging factors, calculated specific to a dwelling, then TI can be used to locate these bridges...... however, as far as DEAP and the BER process goes, TI does not have any quantitive influence as it does not measure type thickness or thermal conductivity of an insulation material....

sinnerboy

Taking a step back

EU legislation requires all buildings sold or let must have a BER Cert .
Reason - to inform purchasers / renters

It is compulsory on property owner to provide

It should be therefore relatively simple and cheap .

It is quite complex actually . Download the DEAP manual ( and software too ) - anybody can do this - you will see this for yourself .

Consequently it cannot be produced cheaply , despite the demands of most ( punters ) and the promises of a desperate or disingenuous few ( Assessors) Much has been posted on that score here and elsewhere.

And so , to thermal imaging .....

The idea that "spot checks" with thermal imaging cameras has a role to play in 99% of BER assessments on existing houses is also disingenuous. The correct procedure is difficult as I have posted above and therefore costly.

Most homeowners would not pay for this -and right they are too . A punter would want to have a substantial property and be prepared to pay not only for the thermal imaging - but to act on it's findings too afterward . Otherwise - get real - there is no role for it

PeteHeat

Hi Syd,

You are correct thermal imaging will not tell you what is in the wall, for that info (as you pointed out) the client tells you or for a "Doubting Thomas" like me maybe take a small core sample.

TI can show any differences in the wall as noted earlier examples of bad workmanship or as I discovered over 40% of the side wall of a house had no insulation installed.

Bricklayers must have been on a role and forgot (I'm being nice) both ends and top of the sides of the house were insulated nothing in between, both gables had insulation to the second floor and around the windows.

Another was showing spots in a lot of places, honestly I thought the camera was at fault, the Architect was happy something was wrong, before opening a section of the wall started the foreman came in and admitted the insulation was damaged but used anyway.

I am not suggesting scrapping the BER, if anything it should have been in place a long time ago.

Used properly I know the services on offer are very valuable, I recommend customers to have heat loss calculations carried out before they start to build as they have the option to increase the levels and quality of the insulation before they discover that they could have had warmer homes for what is often a small increase in their spend on insulation.

Accurate heat loss calculations are very useful when sizing heating apliances be they stoves, boilers, heat pumps etc

I know one particular Gent (who I recommend) charges around double the figures I have seen posted here for the full service from the plans to the final cert.

The end result has been smaller heating systems, homes that are a lot cheaper to heat than they would have been if they were built to building regs standards.

Value for money for the life of the building, perhaps one day the public will see the real cost of not using the professional services available to them from the start.