VRT query - vehicle registered in name of non national

24-03-2009 2:31pm #1

Have a friend who owns a jeep which he brought in from NI a year or two ago. He paid for it and uses it down here, but put it in his sister's name and she lives in the North. He never paid the VRT. If stopped he will just say that is not his. I told him I doubt that will work, that if it were so simple then everyone would just get a friend in the north on the paperwork and the vrt system would collapse and I doubted there was a loophole so broad. Anyone know? I presume they would just impound it and it would gbe up to him to prove that it was genuinely hers.

DanGerMus · 24-03-2009 2:36pm

Is it commercial? Isn't VRT on them like 50 quid.

unkel · 24-03-2009 2:38pm

Tell your friend his situation means he is driving around without insurance. If he causes a serious accident with someone claiming substantial compensation, he'll be paying it back to the insurance company until the day he dies.

24-03-2009 2:39pm

Nope, it's not. It's a big new Cherokee, or it was new 18 months ago, so think vrt is a lot.

24-03-2009 2:41pm

unkel wrote: »

Tell your friend his situation means he is driving around without insurance.

He's named on his sister's policy, she's the insured driver. But guess there might be an issue if they don't cover driving south of the border, but not sure this is an issue - presume he's at least covered that one.

unkel · 24-03-2009 2:44pm

Deleted User wrote: »

He's named on his sister's policy, she's the insured driver. But guess there might be an issue if they don't cover driving south of the border, but not sure this is an issue - presume he's at least covered that one.

I doubt very much he's insured driving it on a daily basis in this country.

-Chris- · 24-03-2009 2:45pm

Presume nothing, stay away from that one.

I'd agree with you, I don't think he'll get away with it, or that it's worth the hassle of worrying about it all the time.

24-03-2009 2:51pm

Not even getting into the insurance matter, wouldn't even know what was disclosed and know the insurance contract is one of full disclosure and uberrim...ubberem...utmost good faith.

Just was wondering what the answer to the vrt poser, purely as a matter of customs and excise law, is. Or can anyone think of an obvious flaw in his logic.

-Chris- · 24-03-2009 3:24pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Or can anyone think of an obvious flaw in his logic.

The obvious flaw in his logic is that he's the primary user and the legal owner of the vehicle and he's resident in this state.
If it can be proven that the vehicle spends most of its time here, then they'll have no problem doing him.

24-03-2009 3:30pm

AudiChris wrote: »

The obvious flaw in his logic is that he's the primary user and the legal owner of the vehicle and he's resident in this state.

So this is the primary factor, and ownership is not relevant in the vrt tax regime?

If so then he has no defence at all.

-Chris- · 24-03-2009 3:35pm

As I understand it, he is the owner.
He paid for it and he's using it.

Who it's registered to and who owns it don't have to be the same person.

rugbyman · 24-03-2009 3:47pm

I am surprised that you,Unkle, suggest this man is not insured. there is no info in the thread to suggest this. if he is named on the policy he is insured regardless of where he lives or where in the EC he might have an accident,

regarding his risk of problems with Customs, in 90 % of cases that I have known of, he will be able to VRT (or perhaps re export ) the vehicle that day. The Customs may try and fine him for the illegal use. he can choose to pay that and export the vehicle , to pay it and within a short period pay the vrt, or ( and I am not so certain of this), do not pay the fine ,get rid of the vehicle and risk them summonsing him to court for the unauthorised use of the vehicle.

he can also not pay the fine and go and pay the vrt that day. Their following up this action with a court case would likely not happen.

If the Customs have noticed him for some time ,they may take the vehicle off him there and then(assuming he agrees). After this all arguements are futile, as they have the vehicle .

regards, rugbyman

24-03-2009 3:51pm

AudiChris wrote: »

Who it's registered to and who owns it don't have to be the same person.

True, and if they delve into it I am sure he paid for the vehicle and not her, so he is at least the beneficial owner.

I've tried explaining to him that not only do I think his scheme won't work, but that he is EXACTLY the person customs are looking for, the person who sets up the paper trail to avoid tax he should pay. He just can't seem to see it, and keeps on reverting to the 'but it's in her name' logic.

rugbyman wrote: »

regarding his risk of problems with Customs, in 90 % of cases that I have known of, he will be able to VRT (or perhaps re export ) the vehicle that day. The Customs may try and fine him for the illegal use. he can choose to pay that and export the vehicle , to pay it and within a short period pay the vrt, or ( and I am not so certain of this), do not pay the fine ,get rid of the vehicle and risk them summonsing him to court for the unauthorised use of the vehicle.

he can also not pay the fine and go and pay the vrt that day. Their following up this action with a court case would likely not happen.

Excellent, thanks. Was kinda wondering what the practice was.

lynchie · 24-03-2009 3:57pm

Insurance is irrelevant in this case. The person is covered assuming their insurance company is aware that they are driving a UK reg'ed vehicle.

Once the vehicle is not owned by a resident and they can prove that they are not the owner to customs, I don't see how customs can force payment of VRT as the vehicle is temporarily within the state and therefore exempt. However, a resident driving the vehicle within the state could be prosecuted for driving an unregistered vehicle.

24-03-2009 4:01pm

lynchie wrote: »

I don't see how customs can force payment of VRT as the vehicle is temporarily within the state and therefore exempt.

But I guess the nub of the question is, can they look behind the paperwork and simply impound the vehicle on a hunch, and put the onus on him to prove that it's not just temporarily within the state? It would be difficult for them to prove it's not just here a few days, on the other hand it would be impossible for him to prove it's up North all the time.

24-03-2009 4:14pm

The way I see things is this. Firstly he has not been stopped yet so I would keep driving it until he is. He may never be stopped. If he is stopped have a good story ready for them they may buy the story they may not. If not they would then most likely give him 7 days to register it so he can either do this or bring it back up north.

Even if they did impound it which I think they would find difficult when he is not the registered owner there is no way they could not release the car to his sister if she came down with proof she lives in the north.

Edit: Tell him to get a UK license to his sisters address. I can tell you from experience that on production of a UK insurance cert and License at a Garda checkpoint you can see them realise they have lost and abrubtly tell you to "get it sorted and drive on..."!!

unkel · 24-03-2009 4:18pm

rugbyman wrote: »

if he is named on the policy he is insured regardless of where he lives or where in the EC he might have an accident

Nope, don't presume any of that. Most EU insurance companies limit the amount of time the car can be driven in a foreign country (but within the EU). Last time I checked mine, it was 30 days. Most EU insurance companies limit cover to residents (so people living in foreign country are excluded)

Henry Ford III · 24-03-2009 4:48pm

I think unkel may be right on the money there. The insurance is most likely invalid.

peasant · 24-03-2009 4:54pm

Whatever about the insurance, a person "normally resident" in the Republic of Ireland is prohibited from driving a foreign registered vehicle (with very few exceptions and owning said vehicle outright aint one of them

)

24-03-2009 4:59pm

unkel wrote: »

Nope, don't presume any of that. Most EU insurance companies limit the amount of time the car can be driven in a foreign country (but within the EU). Last time I checked mine, it was 30 days. Most EU insurance companies limit cover to residents (so people living in foreign country are excluded)

I agree that insurance company's don't offer unlimited cover to non-residents but in this situation where the car can easily cross from one country to another and with the owner(on the log book) and main driver(on the insurance cert) being a resident in the north how would the insurance company disprove the OP's friend if he said he had a crash in the south but claimed he had just borrowed his sisters car for a few days.

-Chris- · 24-03-2009 5:07pm

Nox001, while your arguments may stand up from a "you'll probably get away with it" point-of-view, I wouldn't think they're good or constructive advice.

You're not allowed to walk into shops and stuff things up your jumper, you're not allowed to pay for things with "homemade" money, you're not allowed to lie to your insurance company in order to get a lower quote.

You may do these things, you may get away with them, but it's not good practice to advise people that these things are OK.

24-03-2009 5:24pm

AudiChris wrote: »

Nox001, while your arguments may stand up from a "you'll probably get away with it" point-of-view, I wouldn't think they're good or constructive advice.

You're not allowed to walk into shops and stuff things up your jumper, you're not allowed to pay for things with "homemade" money, you're not allowed to lie to your insurance company in order to get a lower quote.

You may do these things, you may get away with them, but it's not good practice to advise people that these things are OK.

Firstly I'm in no way advising anybody to ever lie to an insurance company and I would never do so. I was genuinely asking how they would go about proving whats what in the above situation.

There is no point in hiding the fact that I am not exactly against people avoiding VRT and I am not the biggest fan of car tax, although I probably over did it a bit in my first post in the thread it's still not being given as advice more of an opinion.

Also, Yes I was driving unregistered for a good while but I was not actually braking any laws as I had lived abroad and my car is now registered(for free).

Fey! · 24-03-2009 5:43pm

If customs have seen the car around a lot, then there is a very good chance that they will lift it. Despite what an earlier poster seems to think, the OPs friend will have very little to say about this.

Being stopped by customs and being stopped by the Gardai are two very different things; the Gardai are less likely to delve too deeply if offered UK license and insurance, wheras customs may get sticky, especially if they have a note of the car already.

On the insurance, if he is insured in the north, then he will need to have stated that the car is normally kept at an address in the south (standard insurance form asked if the registered address is the normal "kept at" address). Insurance in the north may dictate that the car can only be used out of state (Northern Ireland/Britain) for X number of days. It may also state that a named driver may not be covered out of state without informing them. All of this will hinge on the insurance company and the policy.

If his insurance is in the south, then there can be no argument (most southern insurance companies will insure out of state reg'd cars without fuss, and without any time restrictions concerning the car getting an Irish reg) as to whether or not he has insurance cover.

ART6 · 24-03-2009 6:03pm

The point made by Peasant is the most relevant. If the vehicle is registered in the north then as an Eire resident he can only drive it when intending to remove it from the state or when on a temporary visit for the purposes of a hire or similar. The Guards are not likely to be his problem, but the customs most certainly are. They have many more powers that have the AGS.

unkel · 24-03-2009 6:04pm

Larry Microscopic Hanger wrote: »

how would the insurance company disprove the OP's friend if he said he had a crash in the south but claimed he had just borrowed his sisters car for a few days.

Minor claims are just paid out - he'll get away with it. Big expensive claim and they'll start digging and they'll find the proof. Then they pay out to the victim and start recouping the money from the OPs friend. That was my point.

DonJose · 24-03-2009 7:34pm

If he is resident in the state then he would be issued with a PPS number, customs are a branch of revenue who would access to all sorts of information like PAYE, PRSI and income tax records. Irish residents are not allowed to drive foreign registered cars.

Vertakill · 24-03-2009 8:12pm

You can get insurance no problem on a UK/N.Ireland reg from an insurance company from the south. So all this guy would have to do is get his own insurance, but still use his sister for the whole VRT thing.
But what posters before me have said is very true regarding the situation where you'd need to inform some N.Irish insurance companies that you're leaving the country. If he was planning on continuing what he's doing he really ought to look into his/her policy carefully

Provided your friend hasn't done anything to draw attention to himself (ie. Caught speeding, details taken by a Garda at a checkpoint etc) then there's little or no way it can be proved that he's the primarily driving in the South and not just constantly travelling between the two.

Although there is always an element of risk doing anything like that.

There's many situations where an Irish driver can be driving a foreign registered car legitimately and vice versa so not every yellow reg'd car in Ireland is doing something illegal, despite what the majority of people seem to think.

Vertakill · 24-03-2009 8:25pm

unkel wrote: »

Nope, don't presume any of that. Most EU insurance companies limit the amount of time the car can be driven in a foreign country (but within the EU). Last time I checked mine, it was 30 days. Most EU insurance companies limit cover to residents (so people living in foreign country are excluded)

Yes that is true but how are the insurance companies going to prove how long someones been in the North or the South of Ireland unless said person has been pulled in or caught for something?

If I was the guy and I was planning to do what he's doing, I'd keep driving until something major happens (speed camera, checkpoint etc). Then I'd stop doing it. The longer period of time he 'avoids' getting noticed, the more money he stands to save.

I'm not condoning this so no need to lecture me.. I've paid quite a bit in VRT but it's still a load of bs.

Carawaystick · 24-03-2009 9:05pm

My car insurance covers me and any named drivers anywhere in the EEA all the time. but 26 county residents aren't allowed drive foreign reg'ed cars here unless it's the day of importation or before the end of the first business day to vrt it.

Guy:Incognito · 24-03-2009 9:17pm

Vertakill wrote: »

Provided your friend hasn't done anything to draw attention to himself (ie. Caught speeding, details taken by a Garda at a checkpoint etc) then there's little or no way it can be proved that he's the primarily driving in the South and not just constantly travelling between the two..

Presumably he is resident here. IE he has an adress here, pays tax here etc. therefore he is not allowed drive a foreign reg'd car here. Unless he has no income and isnt visibly here the majprity of the time, then all the proof they need can be got from their own systems.

unkel · 24-03-2009 9:26pm

Vertakill wrote: »

If I was the guy and I was planning to do what he's doing, I'd keep driving until something major happens (speed camera, checkpoint etc).

Or something really major happens like a car crash resulting in big claims. Then my scenario starts. For anyone still not realising how serious this is, think: the guy will never get a loan, will never own a house, won't even get a credit card. A life of poverty, really. Is that risk worth saving a few quid now?

crocro · 24-03-2009 9:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Have a friend who owns a jeep which he brought in from NI a year or two ago. He paid for it and uses it down here, but put it in his sister's name and she lives in the North. He never paid the VRT. If stopped he will just say that is not his. I told him I doubt that will work, that if it were so simple then everyone would just get a friend in the north on the paperwork and the vrt system would collapse and I doubted there was a loophole so broad. Anyone know? I presume they would just impound it and it would gbe up to him to prove that it was genuinely hers.

They establish that you are not resident in the UK, then lift the car. They check for in-date UK licence and insurance and tax. They search your car for envelopes with your irish address. Often this happens when somebody informs on the driver. C&E ring the person's home number and ask if he lives there. They check his revenue records. If they want they may give him a warning otherwise they lift the car and only release on payment of vrt and penalties and storage charges.

as for how the insurance companies might know where you were living for the past year, they just ring your friends and family. same way they find out you were a smoker after you die and then only pay out half your life insurance because your premium should have been loaded.

rgunning · 24-03-2009 10:42pm

Excellent point. The real point of insurance to to allow you to recover from a major accident and carry on your life. And a good valid insurance policy will help you do this.

However, the insurance company will break you if they catch you out. Worrying about the VRT in this situation is missing the point. While the cops have to go through the courts and don't have the time, the insurance companies won't hesitate in going after your ability to live in the real world.

And here's a rule of thumb for working out if you are in some way not fully insured - if you are asking here instead of ringing up and asking your insurance company and asking them because you are afraid of what they will uncover - you are not covered.

unkel wrote: »

Or something really major happens like a car crash resulting in big claims. Then my scenario starts. For anyone still not realising how serious this is, think: the guy will never get a loan, will never own a house, won't even get a credit card. A life of poverty, really. Is that risk worth saving a few quid now?

VRT query - vehicle registered in name of non national

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