Rent by standing order

jaffa20

Hi, it states in my contract that rent it to be paid on or before the 23rd of each month. So i set up a standing order from my boi ac for the 23rd to pay it into my landlord's aib ac each month.

So today, the money went out of my account which suits me fine because i get paid on the 23rd.

Got an email from my landlord saying that the rent is due today!

I said the money is out of my account. it should take 3 - 5 working days before you have it. Out of my control tbh. Anyway, he said from now on, he wants the money in his account on the 23rd but not paid on that day because of the delay it takes in the banking transfer.

I don't think i'm breaking the contract here. The contract states clearly "to be paid on or before".

He may have a mortgage but i also have bills and i don't get paid til the 23rd.

I guess i'll have to pop into an AIB branch and lodge it into his account every 23rd of the month. Of course, the contract states "by standing order" so i'll be breaking the contract then.

Landlords are becoming a pain in the whole. It's not my fault he got a massive mortgage for an overpriced apartment.

Anyway

/rant

Who's wrong, who's right? What to do? Comments appreciated

MysticalSoul

It should only take one business day. I had money before going into my account every month before, and it appeared on my account the next working day.

jaffa20

MysticalSoul wrote: »

It should only take one business day. I had money before going into my account every month before, and it appeared on my account the next working day.

Really? Well that's not too bad. I'll have to confirm with the landlord that he receives it tomorrow so i know what date to set the standing order for. Of course, it has to be in his account ON the 23rd so i need to be sure :pac:

sweetie

to be fair he is in within his rights to state a date and it's up to you to adhere to that. Does he do all his maintenance etc. on time or call over a few days later? If you have to depend on your wages being paid to meet the rent maybe you need to get a cheaper place? should be plenty out there

samhail

another point might be that he has other payments coming out of his account on the 23rd too and he needs to get paid

radioactiveman

You could change the date of the standing order to the 22nd or something so it's guaranteed to go in for the 23rd.
To be honest though if that's the worst problem he has as a landlord re. rent he'll be lucky

Agent J

Sorry buddy but if it says to be paid on or before the 23rd then it needs to be in the landlords account on that date.

The fact of delays in the transfer isnt the landlords problem. However i think hes being a bit of a dick.If he has to rely on the rent every single month on a particular date to meet a standing order and doesnt have at least a months to cover it anyway its a bit badly run.

Transfer should only take 1-2 working days max.

amcalester

The contract states the rent is to be paid on the 23rd so the money should be in his account on the 23rd not 3 days later. Its not his fault (not yours either) that it can take up to 3 days for the money to be transferred but you agreed to pay the rent on the 23rd and to do that you should set up the Standing Order for a few days in advance.

athtrasna

...

jaffa20

Thanks for the replies guys. Very confused about how long the transfer time is now but i guess i'll guess i'll check with the landlord with how many days it takes and set it up so it doesn't happen again next time.

belcarra

I would suggest that the fact "paid" is mentioned you are abiding by the contract. Surely he should have stated "received" instead, ie You pay it on the date agreed, when it's received into his account is another matter!! You can't affect the banks procedures!

In fairness though, he's probably got loads of committments he needs the money for so it affects him. I'm sure it's nothing a short conversation couldn't sort out!

amcalester

Paid is when the landlord recieves the money not when it leaves the account. How can the he be "paid" if he doesnt have the money.

Its well known that bank transfers take time to go through the clearing process and its up to the tennant to take steps to ensure the rent is in the landlords account on time.

You wouldnt post a cheque to someone on the day the bill is due and then say "well I posted it on the 23rd its not my fault the post takes 2 days"

belcarra

amcalester wrote: »

Paid is when the landlord recieves the money not when it leaves the account. How can the he be "paid" if he doesnt have the money.

Its well known that bank transfers take time to go through the clearing process and its up to the tennant to take steps to ensure the rent is in the landlords account on time.

You wouldnt post a cheque to someone on the day the bill is due and then say "well I posted it on the 23rd its not my fault the post takes 2 days"

Paid = Past tense of pay ... http://www.thefreedictionary.com/paid
Pay = http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pay
Basically, the act of giving the money...not of having it received.
I'd be pretty sure the definition should hold up until I see a contrary definition.

It may be well known about processing times, etc. but paying and receiving money are different things. And it's those technicalities that decide matters.

Just my two cents worth and I ain't no solicitor!
(And neither am I Kent Brockman, by the way!!)

the_syco

If you are the same bank as the landlord, it's either instant, or a day. Between banks, it can be 4+ days.

Agent J

belcarra wrote: »

Paid = Past tense of pay ... http://www.thefreedictionary.com/paid
Pay = http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pay
Basically, the act of giving the money...not of having it received.
I'd be pretty sure the definition should hold up until I see a contrary definition.

It may be well known about processing times, etc. but paying and receiving money are different things. And it's those technicalities that decide matters.

Just my two cents worth and I ain't no solicitor!
(And neither am I Kent Brockman, by the way!!)

That would get shot down in less then a second.

If you really want to get techinicall the method of transfer is irrelevant to the landlord and not his responsability. If the method of transfer takes a month/year then you cannot defend yourself by saying you will pay it on the 23rd of the month but the transfer method takes a month/year.

The landlord does not have possesion of the money while it is transit so it is breaking the contract term if he is not in possesion on it by the end of business on the 23d.

OP,
Walk in to your bank. Go over to the foreign exchange and ask for a international payment form. Then go over to the customer service desk and raise your problem. If the transfer is taking any longer then 2-3 days max then ask them how can they send money to anywhere in the Eu in 2/3 working days and not Ireland. It'll be stated on the back of that form that EU transfers must be done within 2 working days before cut off time(as in before say 1pm today(tuesday) would mean it has to be there End of day (Thursday).
Watch them fluster at that one. Dont you love EU rules?

Emerald Lass

think of it this way - if you were paying a mortgage and not rent, how do you think the bank would respond to being left waiting 3-5 days past your payment date?

the date your rent is due to your LL is the 23rd - arguing about semantics aside - this is the date your LL expects their money. Whether or not they have sufficient funds sitting aside to cover mortgages etc is not your business. Likewise, the fact that you may have to go to the bank in person etc is not his concern - how or where you pay the rent is not a worry of his.

I do not blame you LL contacting you about late rent - how is he to know that your standing order is late? likewise how is he to know you are not making excuses and that there is not something else going on? getting rid of a non-paying tenant is a pain so any decent LL will try to prempt this.

Also bear in mind, weekends etc - if the 23rd lands on a weekend, and the transfer takes a further 3-5 days, then it could be over a week before the LL gets his rent - hardly fair is it? And if he were to allow your the grace period of 3-5 days then should for any reason you not pay your rent, it would be at least 5 days after the rent date before he would know!

He is just doing his job and being professional and making sure everything is paid on time. I don't blame him AT ALL.

your rent is due on the 23rd, so pay it on the 23rd, no question.

However here is one suggestion:
explain to your LL that while there is NO prob paying the rent, you get paid on the 23rd every month. Given that the rent is due this makes it tricky for your Standing order. So offer to change the date to say the 28th of the month. So next month you will pay on the 28th, but will pay the additional pro rata rate for the intervening 5 days.
I.e rent €1000 so pro rata per day is €32.88. So next month you will pay on the 28th €1164.40 - €1000 months rent, plus the additional days. Then after that you will be up to date for the extra days and go back to paying €1000 but on the 28th from there on in.

this might make things easier for you, and given that you are ensuring that the LL is not out of pocket then he might go for it.
Having said that, you would have to be certain of being paid on the 23rd each month - even taking weekends etc into account.

jaffa20

Calm down folks.

His argument was that the contract states:

"rent to be paid on or before the 23rd by standing order"

That is exactly what i did. Set up a standing order for the 23rd of each month. It's not my problem the banking system takes 3-5 working days. It's not my problem he's with AIB. He's gonna get the money so i don't see the worry.

Wow, he has mortgage repayments but if he can't afford to pay off a mortgage with savings and relying on rental income then tbh, he is an idiot.

Anyway, i'm gonna set up the standing order for the 16th each month. That's 7 days in advance. If that is not soon enough to be in his account for the 23rd then he can come and collect it in person.

I'm doing this to keep him happy, not because i'm in the wrong. Nobody is sure how long it takes for the funds to clear. I told him to let me know when he got the money but he didn't even get back to me.

mikemac

Are you going to get a new lease?
Not a renewal but a new document showing that payment date has been amended?

I'd ask for written documentation for everything from a landlord.
I'd a similar situation to you as my rent was due on the 3rd of each month.
The landlord wanted it changed to 1st but wouldn't send an amended lease so it never happened.

It looks like I'm trying to be awkward, when it comes to dealing with landlords document everything.

You did nothing wrong here OP and are being accommodating to the landlord for changing

bobbbb

I bank with a different bank to my landlord.
It has to be paid on the 1st but it only lands in his account 4 working days after it leaves mine (inter bank transfer).

So i have to arrange for it to be paid on the 25th of every month to be sure.

Emerald Lass

jaffa20 wrote: »

His argument was that the contract states:

"rent to be paid on or before the 23rd by standing order"

That is exactly what i did. Set up a standing order for the 23rd of each month.

to clarify -rent to be paid on or before the 23rd - that is the date your rent is due to your LL
by standing order - the method by which the rent is to be paid.
This in no way reads to me that on the 23rd of each month a standing order agreement is to be issued, rather it reads I want my money on or before the 23rd and I want it by standing order.

jaffa20 wrote: »

It's not my problem the banking system takes 3-5 working days. It's not my problem he's with AIB. He's gonna get the money so i don't see the worry.

likewise its not his problem if you are with BOI and get paid on the 23rd. yeah he's gonna get the money, but late, so it is a worry, and as a tenant, you should be protecting yourself. You are giving him ammunition if he ever wanted to evicit you early - he has proof of continuous late payments in breech of your contract. Its for your won good to pay on time.

jaffa20 wrote: »

I'm doing this to keep him happy, not because i'm in the wrong. Nobody is sure how long it takes for the funds to clear.

eh, no you are wrong TBH. Regardless of how long it takes to transfer funds YOU have a contract to provide HIM with rent on a clearly specified date. You didn't do that.

you made a mistake, you now realise it and are amending your standing order accordingly. Rightly so, but you were wrong in this instance.

MysticalSoul

Would a direct debit be any faster?

I had a former lodger who was with Ulster Bank, who set up the rent to transfer from her account every month to my Bank of Ireland account, and it was always in the day after (ie 2nd of the month instead of the 1st, unless the 1st was on a weekend).

jaffa20

Emerald Lass wrote: »

to clarify -rent to be paid on or before the 23rd - that is the date your rent is due to your LL
by standing order - the method by which the rent is to be paid.
This in no way reads to me that on the 23rd of each month a standing order agreement is to be issued, rather it reads I want my money on or before the 23rd and I want it by standing order.

I suppose it depends from what perspective you look at it and what paid means in this context.

Paid to me means, it's out of my account and transferred to his.

Paid to you means, paid into his account.

Edit;

I actually i just reread the contract and it has:

"Monthy payment in advance by standing order on or before..."

So reading this, i think i'm still not in the wrong.

jaffa20

MysticalSoul wrote: »

Would a direct debit be any faster?

I had a former lodger who was with Ulster Bank, who set up the rent to transfer from her account every month to my Bank of Ireland account, and it was always in the day after (ie 2nd of the month instead of the 1st, unless the 1st was on a weekend).

Well, i've an ulster bank account too but i heard they're even slower. Nobody seems to be sure about how long it takes. Not even my bank :pac: I think it varies between 3-5 days unless both parties are with the same bank.

amcalester

To set up a direct debit the landlord would have to be a recognised company and no it wouldn't be any quicker as direct debits are called for up to 3 days before the due date to allow for the clearing process.

Basicly the OP has to arrange for the money to be in the landlords account on or before the 23rd (which he has done) by setting up an SO earlier than the 23rd.

The clearing times depends on the bank, I worked for a bank in Ireland and if you keyed an inter bank transfer before 2pm on a Monday it would be in the recipients account on Wednesday. If it was keyed after 2pm it would hit on Thursday.

If it was an internal bank transfer then it was instant between 9am and 4pm outside of these times it would go through when 9am next came around.

amcalester

jaffa20 wrote: »

Paid to me means, it's out of my account and transferred to his.

But its not transferred to his until its in his account (its in transit and you have to allow time for this) which takes up to 3 working days.

bobbbb

jaffa20 wrote: »

I suppose it depends from what perspective you look at it and what paid means in this context.

Paid to me means, it's out of my account and transferred to his.

Paid to you means, paid into his account.

Edit;

I actually i just reread the contract and it has:

"Monthy payment in advance by standing order on or before..."

So reading this, i think i'm still not in the wrong.

When do you consider yourself paid when you get paid for your work?
Imagine your employer teling you that you have been paid on payday. Only to find the money doesnt arrive into your account til 5 days later.

MysticalSoul

bobbbb wrote: »

When do you consider yourself paid when you get paid for your work?
Imagine your employer teling you that you have been paid on payday. Only to find the money doesnt arrive into your account til 5 days later.

Actually this happens me. Technically I get paid on the 25th of the month, but doesn't hit my account till the morning of the 26th, at Christmas it is a nightmare - was 30th of the month this year :eek:. If a weekend, won't go through till the Monday/Tuesday of that week (usually the Tuesday).