Too old to start training to be a commercial pilot

Seamus357

Is 38 too old to begin training to become a commerical pilot? I heard the PTC course in Waterford can bring you from no experience to full trained in 14 months. Would an airline hire a 40 year old fully certified pilot?

Delta Kilo

It's hard to know. There have been stories of 40+ year olds starting to train to be pilots and being hired but those stories are rare. The first thing I would recommend is get the First Class Medical done and see is your body still up to it. See how many miles you have left in you. An airline won't take on someone and spend a fortune training them if they think that you could fail the renewal in just a few years.

You will hear of loads of places such as PTC offering 14 month courses with "guaranteed" interviews at the end but a lot of this needs to be taken with a pinch of salt, especially in todays economic climate. Airlines are not hiring, including ryanair. When you come out of a school such as PTC, you will have minimum hours and experience and tbh, not very desirable. The school you go to is also supposed to be a big factor. Some say Oxford Aviation and FTE are the best as they have numerous links with various airlines and it is an industry revolved around "who you know".

If you do finish training in the 14 months you will most likely have to wait 6 months to a year to get hired. Then, you will still have to undergo line and base training with the airline which usually takes another 6-8 months. That is nearly 3 years before you really begin to make decent money and even then it won't be as good as you think. With a lot of airlines you have to pay for this line training yourself which usually costs around 25-30k. Add that on to the 98,500 PTC charge before you begin.

People who normally come out of these schools are usually young guys and airlines can get away with paying them quite little, but you may have a mortgage and family to support. I don't know your situation so this may be completely irrelevant. Will you be able to survive on basically no income for 3 years? Will you be in serious debt after training? Will you even be able to secure the finance to do the course? These are the questions that you should ask yourself before you look any further.

You could take up flying as a hobby. Get your PPL and join a club and bring the kids up flying. It is still flying and fun. If your adamant about doing it then do a trial flight and if you still like it, then get the first class medical done.

Finally, I will say that if you really want to do it then do it because you won't be happy until you do. You will get people telling you you are mad and others will tell you to go for it. Only you can make the decision. Don't let anyone get in the way of your ambition because it is your life at the end of the day. Just be prepared that it may not go according to plan the whole time and that it may not eventually work out.

FlutterinBantam

Very well said there.

Ticks all the boxes.

It has been done in the past, but in today's climate hard to say.

diverdriver

Would an airline hire a 40 year old fully certified pilot?

Short answer: Yes they would. Long answer: You're up against it at the moment. There's very little hiring going on and even people with lots of time and ratings are struggling.

Delta Kilo is spot on and I'll only add a few other comments. Be careful about PTC. Their reputation has been suffering recently and they are ridiculously expensive for what they offer. The course they offer is only a modular course which can be done more cheaply elsewhere. The likes of FTE and Oxford offer 'integrated' courses for similar prices as PTC.

Another thing to remember is that being a 'fully certified pilot' at the end of your training only means about 300 hours, which is not the same as being ready to step into the cockpit of an A320. Many a young kid has fallen for the marketing hype and thought they were being trained to be 'airline' pilots when in fact they are training to be commercial pilots. Some older 'kids' as well. There are other flying jobs, that mean long hours, low pay and a spotty income. I know, I have one.

Just one other point Delta Kilo said:

you will most likely have to wait 6 months to a year to get hired.

You could safely double or treble that. Bear in mind too that you would need to stay current in that time, which means more flying or at least hiring of simulators. Plus unless you maintain contacts in the flying game, it's likely you will miss out on opportunities. My current job is not great but I get to meet lots of people who one day might be asked if they know of anyone interested in flying for them. Or when I need a reference or for them to ring me and suggest I might apply to so and so. Like everything else, it's all about contacts.

donkey balls

Hi Seamus,

Delta kilo is spot on there are other schools where it can be done alot cheaper i.e 50,000 euro.

im in the process of training my self by doing it modular (pay as you train) with the way the airline industry is at the moment i would not be paying 98,000 euro.

there are a load of guys&gals out there who have thousands of hours on type and cant get work.

also if you can take about four weeks off work go to florida where you can do the ppl for about $6,000.

as for your age one of my captains was 50 before getting his licence

Mr Benevolent

Yes, it can be done. Don't do it in Ireland though.

jimbojetdriver

Hi Seamus

Have to agree totally with what has been said above.

However people training at your age is not as rare you might think. When I did my training at Oxford there was two 46 year olds there. I think one of them is with Fybe now and the other is in a Ryanair hold pool. So theres definitely a chance of getting hired, but these guys had nothing to lose, both had come out of very good careers and could easily afford to pay for the training and a type rating if needed. I don't know your personal situation but unless you can afford it I would think twice about getting into such debt in the current climate!

On the other side though, anybody I know of who is starting training at the moment is doing so because they believe that when they finish in 15 months time, the recession will be over and recruitment wll begin again. I personaly don't think 2010 will be a great year but I am a lot more optimistic about 2011/12.

And finally I just want to echo what diverdriver said above, be careful with PTC, I'm from Waterford and could have saved thousands in accomodation by going there but I chose Oxford instead, at the current exchange rate Oxfords integrated course works out at just over €70,000 compared to a massive €98,500 at PTC, you would have to be crazy to choose PTC now! That extra €28,500 is almost enough for a type rating at Ryanair!

I wish you the best of luck in anything you decide to do!

Jimbo

donkey balls

PTC are know doing modular training it,s on there website.

Seamus as i said in my previous post im doing my ppl in the US $6000 usd is roughly 4400 Euro thats for 45hrs instruction including ground school&exams fee/ night rating.

My flights return is 600 Euro (ex Dub) the school can provide me with accomadation about 20 Euro a night if i want to.

There is no way you would find those prices above in europe.

jimbojetdriver

Donkey Balls

PTC only offers modular training. What they have always done is a structured modular course where you do everything at PTC, zero to hero in a relatively short space of time, similar to integrated, or alternatively you can do whatever bit of training you need to there! But it is not an integrated school, as they lead some people to believe, although I'm sure they would love to be!

I have no problems with the way you are doing your training donkey balls, but it is known that certain airlines do prefer integrated over modular, and if Seamus wants to gain an advantage for getting that first job and can afford it Oxford or integrated is definitely worth looking into!

All the best

Jimbo

donkey balls

jimbojetdriver,

I know what you mean i.e modular dressed up as intergrated(i heard people say that all right).

As for certain airlines prefering the inter guys over mod maybe?.
i know one captain&FO working for FR who did it the mod way oh and my mate was offered a job as a FO he did it modular.

The arguments are allways going be there mod V inter.

Jimbo i have heard good reports on Oxford for the ATPL theory how far are you into the course at Oxford

jimbojetdriver

Donkey balls,

I've just recently finished the course at Oxford and have luckily managed to come out and get straight into a job! The whole course I thought was great and especially the ATPL theory, the instructors were all excellent, really knew there stuff and were very funny so it made it all a lot more bearable, however, I've heard due to retirements and other circumstances some of the subjects are now being thought by CBT and I'm not sure of how thats going!

I too know plenty of people who have taken the modular route that are working for FR and even Aer Lingus, however you still have the likes of BA (who only take integrated), BMI and even Ryanair are starting to hint towards a preference e.g consistently visiting Oxford to promote working for Ryanair, waiving the application fees for Oxford gaduates and bumping them up the queue for interviews, a few Integrated friends have been given an interview within a week of applying whereas some modular guys I know have had to wait up to four weeks just to hear back!

But you are right, there will always be the Integrated vs Modular debate! But its all down to every individuals preference. If I could do it again and new we would be in recession I perhaps may have done the Waypoint progaramme at Oxford to save some money but I have no regrets! The 15 months I spent training were the most enjoyable of my life.

Anyway sorry for the thread drift, but Seamus or anyone else that wants any info feel free to ask!

All the best

Jimbo

pclancy

Take up general aviation for a while at your local aeroclub and you'll meet other people into flying for both work and fun. You'll meet airline and commercial ilots of all levels or wanabees like yourself and its a great place to get good info and real-world examples from people that work as pilots. Its a real eye-opener. I've met pilots of all ages, one I know is in his 40s with kids and is just getting into flying Dash-8s with Air New Zealand after leaving his long term career in finance. He's on crap money and will be for ages but loves his job to bits. On the other hand ive met people who are 20-30 struggling to hour build and get work on anything bigger then a cessna. I dont think ages is very relevant, its more are you sure you want to spend so long training for what you want.

The key is to try and meet poeple from the industry and get more good info like the above so you can see what it will be really like. Ive learnt so much from people ive met and had a great time flying and doing competitions, flour bombings, cross country trips, landing/circuit comps etc. Flying for fun might be just as rewarding compared to sitting in an a320 staring at the autopilot slowy pay your debts....

Barname

pclancy wrote: »

Flying for fun might be just as rewarding compared to sitting in an a320 staring at the autopilot slowy pay your debts....

lol, well said.

skybus

To start at forty is old, although not impossible. With the retirement age in most airlines being 60, and in others 65 you could realistically give somewhere in the region of 15 to 20 years service. I can see the compulsory retirment age being challenged in years to come.

It sounds from your original post that you haven't put alot of research into it yet. Training is very expensive these days, unlike years ago when many airlines paid for your training. These days the onus falls on the individual themselves. For this reason getting your training done in the most cost efficient, whilst still ensuring high quality is imperative. I would suggest doing alot of research before embarking on any decision. I recommend speaking to actual commercial pilots in the industy, find out their paths to their jobs and seek as much advise from them as you can. Everyone like in all walks of life reach the same point but from very different angles. I have read on many websites over the years people recommending this and that to people wanting to get started in the industry, and many of these giving the information are the same people who have never flown a commercial aircraft in their lives.

To put it in perspective in recent years I have flown with many, mostly men in their late thirties to early forties who like yourself have changed careers. However, you will find that many of these have been invloved in general aviation for some years, when I say this I mean have been flying ceesna's and the like as a hobby for some years and are now looking to make a career out of their pastime.

The life of a working pilot can be difficult. It's not all glamour as made out by many. Your alarm clock can ring five times a week at four o clock in the morning, with you returning in the late afternoon completely shattered. When you fly on the longer routes whilst it's nice to have a couple of days off in some of the hotter climates in the middle of January, the novelty does wear off if you are married with kids. You will find you are away from home for an enormous amount of time each month, including on occasions Christmas as your roster keeps you away alot. Close friends of mine flying for two of the larger airlines for years out of London do this all the time, whist commuting from here in Ireland. They sometimes only spend 12 days a month at home. Your social life will be affected as you will have very few weekends off, so seeing your friends for that weekly drink or hobby can be a problem. Annual leave time is not necessarily at the same time as your wife and kids.

The day you qualify as a new pilot and get your first airline job is really only the beginning. The licence will allow you to get the job, and from there over the course of the next few years you will gain valuable experience. Despite what some people think on this thread the reality is that it's not just a case of

sitting in an a320 staring at the autopilot slowy pay your debts....

The annual testing of you as an individual and as a crew will stay with you until you eventually hang up your wings. Individual testing includes a bi-annual simulator check, which is examined to a very high standard involoving various scenarios. You will undertake a very stringent medical each year, with everything tested. Up until recently if you were over forty you had to undergo a medical twice a year. To put these into perspective six of my colleagues have in the past 12 months had their medical resinded, which paints a bit of reality on how serious they are. These will continue until the day you retire. You will also have various classroom type exam days you must pass on a annual basis ranging from your annual technical exam on the aircraft you fly, to carrying dangerous goods, to Safety and Emergency procedures. Not to mention an annual line-check in the air with somone watching your every move over the course of your flight. The reality is you are under the spotlight until the day you retire.

The industy at the moment is in poor shape. Airlines around Europe are struggling and some will not last the year. With failing airlines brings experienced pilots onto the market. Many airlines will hire those before someone fresh out of flightschool as the cost of training them is minimal especially if they are experienced on the particular aircraft type. Coming from someone working in the industry for many, many years now I would not be of the opinion to urge you to just drop your life as it is now and urge you to go for it. It depends entirely on your persoanal circumstances. For example if it dosen't work out can you start up where you left off and continue in the career you are currently in? Can you afford to pay for the training without a having a huge impact on your current personal finances? There are many questions you must seek advise on before doing anything.

For me, despite the realities spelt out above I wouldn't swap it for any other career. I entered the industry many moons ago on the back of a Masters degree in Technology. Personally I don't ever regret not going down that route. Flying is all I ever wanted to do but I know I had the safety net at the time of something to fall back on should it go wrong. Today, the degree certificate is gathering dust somewhere in the attic. I would probably be laughed at if I entered that line of work in the current time as I'm so out of touch with that indusrty. Despite the downturn in the industry I am lucky in that I am still well renumerated and still hold the postion where years later I say I still enjoy my job immensly. It is still a job however. This job usually means that I don't take any of my work home with me. When the parking brake on the aircraft is set, that's me and my colleague done for another day. Some of my colleagues are involved in various ways in general aviation outside of work with many owning their own aircraft. For me I had the urge for the first few years but after that it faded away. In fact I haven't flown a light aircraft since the day I got my first job, despite in previous years saving every single penny I could get my hands on to do a few hours of basic lessons here and there. I must have built every type of model aircraft that was out there and worked in a local small newsagents during holidays for pittance but as a payment I got to keep as many aviation related magazines as I wanted. You will find that many in the industry with years under their belt will usally come from a similar background. I wish you luck in your research. My words of advise would be to get as much relevant information as you can before making any decision and on one point I would agree with what one contributer says above. You can still enjoy flying without necessarily having to make a career out of it.

pclancy

Hmmm no offence meant there with that autopilot joke....I would trade everything for a chance to be an airline pilot Skybus and actually do a job I heartfelt enjoyed as Im sure I would as a pilot. Its just a reference to the fact you can save yourself a ton of money and years of hard work and the constant training/medical assesments by sticking with GA. I wanted to highlight this option to the OP. Personally I'd happily pay all that money and live that life if my dam eyes could see better

donkey balls

excellent post Skybus your spot on i think your post should be stickied
for any wannbe to read first.

As for a back up plan/job it,s a must i myself have a back up plan that in the current climate i will be using more than likely.

Pc Clancy your the mod whats the chance of having Skybus post stickied

pclancy

I'll add it to the how to start in aviation thread.