Pope warns against witchcraft in Angola

Bougeoir

Hey all,

I was looking through some news today on Google and apparently the Pope has made some controversial comments against witchcraft in Africa denouncing it as evil. Wouldn't you think those decades of witch hunts were over? Apparently not! Anyway here's the article if you're interested.

Pope warns against witchcraft in Angola

LUANDA (AFP) — Pope Benedict XVI issued a warning against witchcraft Saturday during his visit to Angola, after calling on African leaders to battle corruption and drawing a tough line against abortion.

The pope celebrated a private Mass for Angola's clergy and laypeople in the modernist São Paulo church, which along with much of the surrounding neighbourhood has been freshly painted and upgraded for his visit.

He praised the work of activists within the Church, and called on them to work to convert people to Catholicism, saying evangelising remains as important today as it was when Catholics first arrived in this region of Africa 500 years ago.

"Today it is up to you, brothers and sisters, following in the footsteps of those heroic and holy heralds of God, to offer the risen Christ to your fellow citizens," he said to the invitation-only crowd.

"So many of them are living in fear of spirits, of malign and threatening powers. In their bewilderment they end up even condemning street children and the elderly as alleged sorcerers," he said.

The issue has particular resonance in Angola, where traditional and home-grown faiths are flourishing, even though some sects have been linked to child abuse and human sacrifice.

Benedict criticised the idea that seeking to convert people was an affront to believers of other faiths.

"We do no injustice to anyone if we present Christ to them and thus grant them the opportunity of finding their truest and most authentic selves, the joy of finding life," he added.

São Paulo claims the largest congregation in Luanda, with seating for 1,500 people. Next door is the headquarters of Radio Ecclesia, a Catholic radio station that is one of the few independent voices in Angolan media.

Local Church leaders hope the pope's visit will push Angola's government -- run by the formerly Marxist Movement for the Popular Liberation of Angola -- to allow the station to broadcast nationwide, rather than only in the capital.

In a speech at President Jose Eduardo dos Santos's residence late Friday, Benedict urged African leaders to allow greater press freedom, as he made a stern call for the continent to do more to fight poverty and corruption.
Dos Santos has ruled Angola for 30 years, and the country is ranked among the most corrupt in the world by Transparency International.

But in a country still recovering from decades of war, two thirds of the population lives on less than two dollars a day, despite Angola's oil riches.
"The multitude of Angolans who live below the threshold of absolute poverty must not be forgotten. Do not disappoint their expectations," Benedict said Friday.

He called on Africa to show "a determination born from the conversion of hearts to excise corruption once and for all".

"Armed with integrity, magnanimity and compassion, you can transform this continent, freeing your people from the scourges of greed, violence and unrest," he said.

Benedict has also sought to reinforce Catholic teachings on social issues, taking aim at a part of the African Union's charter that guarantees women a right to an abortion in cases of rape, incest, or major health risks to the mother, saying abortion was not a health issue.

Those remarks followed his controversial denunciation of condoms as a tool to prevent AIDS, which has sparked an international uproar among activists and some governments.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5iZnVg-dfxuZEyGxXHR07q5OxSt5Q

Blessed be!

Nodin

Bit of a difference between certain elements of traditional faith in Africa and Wicca, tbh....Not that I'm defending him, but theres things that go on there that are grim indeed.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7730193.stm

Nevyn

Wicca is one form of religious witchcraft there are many other types and traditions
of witchcraft around the globe and there are many places were terrible abuses and atrocities
are carried out in the name of witchcraft and in the name of ridding people of
witchcraft. Such actions should be condemned imho.

Talliesin

Nodin wrote: »

Bit of a difference between certain elements of traditional faith in Africa and Wicca, tbh.

There's plenty of differences, though the most pertinent one in this case is the fact that most of us live in jurisdictions where we have better legal protection against fanatical nut-jobs.

philologos

Bougeoir wrote: »

Hey all,

I was looking through some news today on Google and apparently the Pope has made some controversial comments against witchcraft in Africa denouncing it as evil. Wouldn't you think those decades of witch hunts were over? Apparently not! Anyway here's the article if you're interested.

Blessed be!

Remember that the Pope is a Christian leader.

In Judeo-Christian tradition using mediums, witchcraft or anything associated with dark spirits is considered to be forbidden, if you want to know the truth you can see it through God. Any other alleged source, is dangerous and harmful.

In the Torah this is forbidden in Jewish tradition, and in Ephesus in the Acts of the Apostles Paul encourages people to burn books of witchcraft:

Acts 19:18-20 wrote:

Also many of those who became believers confessed and disclosed their practices. A number of those who practised magic collected their books and burned them publicly; when the value of these books[URL="javascript:void(0);"]*[/URL] was calculated, it was found to come to fifty thousand silver coins. So the word of the Lord grew mightily and prevailed.

I think it is also forbidden in Islam.

So where the Pope is coming from it's understandable that he doesn't advocate witchcraft.

Nevyn

Jakkass wrote: »

Remember that the Pope is a Christian leader.

I really doubt anyone here is going to forget that.

Jakkass wrote: »

In Judeo-Christian tradition using mediums, witchcraft or anything associated with dark spirits is considered to be forbidden, if you want to know the truth you can see it through God. Any other alleged source, is dangerous and harmful.

In the Torah this is forbidden in Jewish tradition, and in Ephesus in the Acts of the Apostles Paul encourages people to burn books of witchcraft:

I think it is also forbidden in Islam.

So where the Pope is coming from it's understandable that he doesn't advocate witchcraft.

Thats fine he can do that for all those who are catholic, they are his flock
to tend, the rest of us are not of his concern.

Phototoxin

Thats fine he can do that for all those who are catholic, they are his flock
to tend, the rest of us are not of his concern.

They are to him though as they are opposed to his views which are basically that you are wrong, his way is right and because he loves you he wants you to follow his ways this is why he believes that they are his concern. Though the same can be said of any religion really. I'd be more worried if he wasn't trying to convert people !

Lou.m

Actually phototoxin and Jackass you are wrong.

One of the things people forget is that technically the pope is supposed to channel and be guided by he holy spirit at all times one of the reasons the pope is said to be infallible.

The catholic church does not rule against magic or mediums. Infact the whole of the catholic mass leads up to the drama of tran-subtansiation. Where the priest acts as a medium for the holy spirit and transforms bread and wine into divine flesh and blood to be consumed by the congregation.

To be excommunicated is where the pope preforms a ceremony where he severs the link between your soul and his god. I say his god because he appears to think that his link to the divine supercedes the link that any other being might have with the spiritual world. So i do not see how he could call it our god??

Indulgences are still sold today , for a price the pope will sell the way into heaven for the rich are you sure he loves us all equally still????

As for the pope loving people well quite frankly there are wrong ways to love someone. And unrequited love is actually an abuse in some instances. No one has the right to force their love on someone it is an abuse of love.

I am sure the pope believes , that is the problem, good doers with unshaken belief often do much harm.

As for the pope and magic i think priests are witches and most witches are priests and priestesses.

They both claim to channel spiritual beings or the power of spiritual beings at times they both preform ceremonies and claim they have an effect on the physical world.

JimiTime

Lou.m wrote: »

Actually phototoxin and Jackass you are wrong.

One of the things people forget is that technically the pope is supposed to channel and be guided by he holy spirit at all times one of the reasons the pope is said to be infallible.

The catholic church does not rule against magic or mediums. Infact the whole of the catholic mass leads up to the drama of tran-subtansiation. Where the priest acts as a medium for the holy spirit and transforms bread and wine into divine flesh and blood to be consumed by the congregation.

To be excommunicated is where the pope preforms a ceremony where he severs the link between your soul and his god. I say his god because he appears to think that his link to the divine supercedes the link that any other being might have with the spiritual world. So i do not see how he could call it our god??

Indulgences are still sold today , for a price the pope will sell the way into heaven for the rich are you sure he loves us all equally still????

As for the pope loving people well quite frankly there are wrong ways to love someone. And unrequited love is actually an abuse in some instances. No one has the right to force their love on someone it is an abuse of love.

I am sure the pope believes , that is the problem, good doers with unshaken belief often do much harm.

As for the pope and magic i think priests are witches and most witches are priests and priestesses.

They both claim to channel spiritual beings or the power of spiritual beings at times they both preform ceremonies and claim they have an effect on the physical world.

Strangely enough, the RCC seems to me to have many remanents of witchcraft in it. The whole trinketry (holy medals, crucifixes, holy pics etc) thing is so like witchcraft its hard to differentiate. Replace the medals etc with Amulets, crystals, lucky charms etc. No difference IMO. As a Christian myself, I agree with the Pope on this occasion. I do however, think he needs to look closer to home and take his own advice to a degree.

philologos

Lou.m wrote: »

Actually phototoxin and Jackass you are wrong.

O RLY?

Lou.m wrote: »

One of the things people forget is that technically the pope is supposed to channel and be guided by he holy spirit at all times one of the reasons the pope is said to be infallible.

I don't believe in Papal infallibility as I'm not a member of the Catholic Church.

Lou.m wrote: »

The catholic church does not rule against magic or mediums. Infact the whole of the catholic mass leads up to the drama of tran-subtansiation. Where the priest acts as a medium for the holy spirit and transforms bread and wine into divine flesh and blood to be consumed by the congregation.

Read the Bible. You'll find it's prohibited in there at least 3 times.

Lou.m wrote: »

To be excommunicated is where the pope preforms a ceremony where he severs the link between your soul and his god. I say his god because he appears to think that his link to the divine supercedes the link that any other being might have with the spiritual world. So i do not see how he could call it our god??

God is God for everyone. God created the heavens and the earth, we are subject to His laws.

Lou.m wrote: »

Indulgences are still sold today , for a price the pope will sell the way into heaven for the rich are you sure he loves us all equally still????

Proof? I'm not going to get into defending the Catholic Church if they have done wrong. However the Pope is spot on on witchcraft and mediums in my book.

Lou.m wrote: »

As for the pope loving people well quite frankly there are wrong ways to love someone. And unrequited love is actually an abuse in some instances. No one has the right to force their love on someone it is an abuse of love.

The Pope should be warning people if it threatens their salvation.

Lou.m wrote: »

I am sure the pope believes , that is the problem, good doers with unshaken belief often do much harm.

What harm? He has merely warned people? I do hope people in Angola come to Christ however, and reject witchcraft.

Lou.m wrote: »

As for the pope and magic i think priests are witches and most witches are priests and priestesses.

No, not quite magic. God is believed to work through people, not people working wonders if and of themselves. Miracles by their nature are very very rare and they do not happen frequently.

Lou.m wrote: »

They both claim to channel spiritual beings or the power of spiritual beings at times they both preform ceremonies and claim they have an effect on the physical world.

Theres a difference in Christianity between being in communication with God, and being in communication with dark spirits of death and other things. It's considered dangerous.

Lou.m

I NEVER suggested you believed in papal infallibility.

What i said was that the pope is supposed to channel that aspect of god as are the bishops when they choose him, the white smoke released from the roof of the vatican, when the pope is chosen is part of a christian ceremony to release the spirit of god from those that choose the pope.

People often think it is just to indicate to the crowds outside that the pope has been chosen.

You must remember seeing it when this pope was chosen their was a documentary about it on the bbc i cant remember what it was.

There are instances in the bible when magic and channeling is actively encouraged also though. I would not use this to justify the argument either way as the bible is so conflicting.

Thus You will find reading the bible that it is is prohibited in some parts and actively encouraged in others.

Also You will find that one of the conditions of being beautified or sainted is preforming mystic acts.

In fact Christian mysticism is very much a part of catholicism.

And involves invoking often of celestial beings and angels.

Christian magic is very much a part of it.

I see no difference from this and other forms of magic you are free to have your own opinion if course.

Jackass- Quote - " i hope the people of Angola do come to Christ however and reject witchcraft"

Jackass this is a pagan forum for pagans and whilst christians are very welcome i find it upsetting the way you are going about this. THer eis no reason why you can be more open minded especially if you are going to post on a forum like this.

This is a place for pagans to feel safe and to discuss things with other pagans it is for the pagan community.

Differing opinions are welcome but perhaps sometimes they belong in another forum i dont know.
I want you feel feel welcome to post but i have noticed recently (not necessarily you) that there have been some posters here taking an aggressive stance towards paganism.

This forum was set up for the pagan community not as a middle ground or a forum for argument there are other forums on boards for that.

Differing opinions are welcome but this is our space to feel safe to come and chat.

Phototoxin

One of the things people forget is that technically the pope is supposed to channel and be guided by he holy spirit at all times one of the reasons the pope is said to be infallible.

The catholic church does not rule against magic or mediums. Infact the whole of the catholic mass leads up to the drama of tran-subtansiation. Where the priest acts as a medium for the holy spirit and transforms bread and wine into divine flesh and blood to be consumed by the congregation.

To be excommunicated is where the pope preforms a ceremony where he severs the link between your soul and his god. I say his god because he appears to think that his link to the divine supercedes the link that any other being might have with the spiritual world. So i do not see how he could call it our god??

Indulgences are still sold today , for a price the pope will sell the way into heaven for the rich are you sure he loves us all equally still????

As for the pope loving people well quite frankly there are wrong ways to love someone. And unrequited love is actually an abuse in some instances. No one has the right to force their love on someone it is an abuse of love.

Lou.m I'm not a catholic but I can tell you that this is incorrect.

It does rule against magic and mediums. The priest does not act as a medium in the mass. He is not 'channelling' the holy spirit. It would not need channeling.

the pope does not perform a ceremony which severs any link in your soul. It just means you're kicked out of the church. Its more leglistic than anything else.

Selling indulgences is called simony as is banned

Right so loving your kids even if they dont want to be loved and hate you is wrong as well?

My point is that because the pope thinks his religon is right, idealy because he cares about people he wants them to convert to his religion. That is the ideal. Your milage may vary. He might want more power, money or whatever. Different relgions may vary.

What i said was that the pope is supposed to channel that aspect of god as are the bishops when they choose him, the white smoke released from the roof of the vatican, when the pope is chosen is part of a christian ceremony to release the spirit of god from those that choose the pope.

The pope does not 'channel' any aspect of God. I suggest you read up on a religon before you spread false information about it. The pope is their saviours representitive on earth. He is mortal and fallible however they consider him to be infallible on issues surrounding faith and morals.

There are instances in the bible when magic and channeling is actively encouraged also though. I would not use this to justify the argument either way as the bible is so conflicting.

I've read the bible a couple of times and so I must also say ' O RLY? ' as I can think of places where yon God gets his smiting hammer on for people using witchcraft actually yet none of where it is endorsed.

In fact Christian mysticism is very much a part of catholicism.

And involves invoking often of celestial beings and angels.

Catholics may ask their guardian angel to PRAY TO THEIR GOD for them. This is a lot different than worshiping said angel or celestial being.

Lou.m

Jakkass wrote: »

O RLY?





Read the Bible. You'll find it's prohibited in there at least 3 times.



God is God for everyone. God created the heavens and the earth, we are subject to His laws.



Proof? I'm not going to get into defending the Catholic Church if they have done wrong. However the Pope is spot on on witchcraft and mediums in my book.



The Pope should be warning people if it threatens their salvation.

I do hope people in Angola come to Christ however, and reject witchcraft.

Theres a difference in Christianity between being in communication with God, and being in communication with dark spirits of death and other things. It's considered dangerous.

I cant believe you think you can get away with posting this on a pagan forum! READ THE RULES!!!

I just re read your post Jackass. I think you will find preaching is very much against the rules!

Saying you hope people come to christ, and the pope should be warning people if it threatens salvation is a bit much on a pagan forum.

Sorry but i am actually offended.

Whats with the preaching and dogma???

You can be any religion you want , so can i , but so can the people of Angola.

God is god for everyone??? YOUR idea of god???

I have the right to be any religion i choose without being harassed and so do the people of Angola.

Blessed be.

Lou.m

Jackass i assure you i am very well read up on catholicism.

In fact the institution where i received my degree from was a catholic University. Admittedly my degree was in philosophy not theology.


I have studied scripture extensively and have worked closely and professionally with the catholic church on occasion.



I am also very close personal friends with a number of jesuit priests.

I have no beef with christianity other than the fact that it claims it is the only way.

I really always am ready to learn more however i do not wish to be converted!

hairyheretic

Right, I think it's time everyone took a deep breath and a step back from the keyboard.

I have no wish to start tossing around warnings and bans, so I'll put it simply. If the forum charter is not respected, actions will be taken. Consider this a warning to be polite.

Respect for other people's traditions and practices is expected at all times, including non-Pagan traditions and practices. Disagreements and debate are okay, bigotry is not.

No prosyletising. Anyone trying to convert anyone to anything will be immediately banned.

I trust everyone will pay attention to this.

Nevyn

Lou please report posts.

I am not as benevlant as my co mod and Jackass has been warned for this behaviour in other fourms and has already had 1 ban from this forum. Jackass banned for a month and the next one will be permaban.

The ins and outs of the catholic church and christian churchs 'take' and rules on magic
can be discussed in the christianty forum or the spirituality forum but not here.

Lou.m

Apologies Thaedydal,

I did report it in the end i just did not want to over react so i was reluctant to.

Apologies again.:)

getz

Thaedydal wrote: »

Wicca is one form of religious witchcraft there are many other types and traditions
of witchcraft around the globe and there are many places were terrible abuses and atrocities
are carried out in the name of witchcraft and in the name of ridding people of
witchcraft. Such actions should be condemned imho.

i am very supprised at you for not sitting back and looking at the full picture-the church itself was as bad, some of the wichcraft abuses in the passed, in england alone during the 16th and 17th centurys over 170 people accused of witchcraft was burned at the stake or hung ,dozens of other people burned for reading the bible in english- ok times have changed but no good for the kettle[pope] calling the pot[witches] black .i myself believe i am a christian but as i now and again see images of people long dead in old buildings the ,church would of as in the passed accused me of witchcraft and like most other people who have a gift ,killed me