Strange behaviour on Fortec HD Passion+ freesat

ciaran_otoole

ok so here's the problem. I'm hoping someone can help with this as I'm running out of ideas.
I've got a dual LNB running from my dish, one feeding a Fortec HD Passion+ receiver (purchased from Maplin at Xmas time) and the other feeding a second hand Sky box (pretty old Grundig model). The problem is that not all the same channels appear in both. More to the point, I can only receive POP, Tiny POP and some other kids channels via the Sky Box.
When I initially installed everything, the channels appeared in both, but that's no longer the case. I've done multiple scans and it does not find the missing channels. I've updated the latest firmware including the latest channel list and still no luck. The funny thing is that on the Fortec box now the channel info comes up in the EPG but no picture. I know its not the dish as I can still receive via the Sky box.
Any ideas anyone? Kids are driving me mad!

Apogee

You need to first delete the blank channels and then do a manual transponder scan on 11642MHz, V, 27500.

ciaran_otoole

Nice one. I'll give it a go over the weekend. Thanks

ciaran_otoole

No luck I'm afraid. A scan at that setting didn't even pick those channels up.

Apogee

Did you make sure to delete all existing channels (e.g. Pop, TinyPOP) for that frequency first before doing the scan?

What happened when you did the scan - was th quality level OK?

ciaran_otoole

yes i wiped all channels and did a full scan. signal quality was about 80% if I recall. for some reason the channels didn't come up in the scan. Just to double check: i scanned at 11642MHz, V, 27500

fat-tony

That frequency (transponder) is only used for Tiny Pop, Pop, Pop Girl, True Movies and a bunch of the free music channels - Flava, Bliss Scuzz etc.

Is that all you're trying to receive? The thread is a bit confusing as you mention a Grundig SKY box also - which you can't do a scan on, except by using addtional channels. But you don't need to do a scan on the Tiny Pop and those music channels as they are on the free SKY EPG.

Can you clarify that it's the Fortec you are trying to tune to 11642V?

ciaran_otoole

Sorry if the thread is confusing. It is the Fortec that I'm having the issue with. I also have a Grundig which already picks up those channels, so I was just making the point that the issue was with the Fortec receiver and not with the dish.

The problem is that those channels you mention (Tiny Pop, Pop, Pop Girl, etc) no longer appear. I recently updated the firmware and loaded the pre-loaded channels. I can see the EPG but have no picture or sound. I'll retry on 11642V.

ciaran_otoole

Not much progress to report I'm afraid. I reran a scan on this transponder and it came back with the same result. The channels are found but no picture. I then ran a scan for the entire Astra 2A satellite again - it looks like this transponder is the only one causing an issue. Any idea what could be causing this?

fat-tony

You don't have a DECT phone nearby? They can cause problems with some transponders. If so, try turning the base station off temporarily or move it slightly.

ciaran_otoole

I did have a cordless phone and wireless router next to the STB. I moved both of them away and re-ran the scan. But I got the same results again. Could this be a fault with the STB? It seems strange that there's only a problem with one transponder though!

fat-tony

Did you turn off the router and phone?

The problem with DECT phones is that the transmission frequency band used is 1800 - 1900 Mhz, which is what various transponders get converted to by the LNB in your satellite dish.

For example the 11,642Mhz on the transponder you are searching gets mixed with the local oscillator frequency of 9,750Mhz in your LNB, resulting in a frequency of 1,892Mhz travelling down the cable to your receiver. This is in the DECT range. It mightn't be your DECT - your neighbour may have one just on the other side of the wall:eek:

kuro_man

fat-tony wrote: »

Did you turn off the router and phone?

The problem with DECT phones is that the transmission frequency band used is 1800 - 1900 Mhz, which is what various transponders get converted to by the LNB in your satellite dish.

For example the 11,642Mhz on the transponder you are searching gets mixed with the local oscillator frequency of 9,750Mhz in your LNB, resulting in a frequency of 1,892Mhz travelling down the cable to your receiver. This is in the DECT range. It mightn't be your DECT - your neighbour may have one just on the other side of the wall:eek:

That can't be the cause - otherwise both receivers would share the problem. Did you try connecting the fortec where the Grundig is? If it works, it might be just a cable problem or a fault with 1 output on the lnb. You could also try swapping the cables on the lnb.

fat-tony

The problem as described by the OP is only happening on one single transponder (see post #9), so I reckoned that it was likely not a cable or LNB fault.
I assumed the SKY box and Fortec were not located together, otherwise they both should be affected, but tuners differ, so what affects one box might not affect another. This is so like an RF interference problem...

Update - fired up the Freesat receiver, tuned in Tiny Pop, brought the 'phone handset near the cables and bingo - picture breakup! Other transponders no effect. Now I didn't test every transponder, but it's convinced me that I'm on the right track.:D

Apogee

ciaran_otoole wrote: »

The problem is that those channels you mention (Tiny Pop, Pop, Pop Girl, etc) no longer appear. I recently updated the firmware and loaded the pre-loaded channels. I can see the EPG but have no picture or sound. I'll retry on 11642V.

This does not look like DECT interference to me, especially considering you are seeing the EPG info. What it does look like is your pre-loaded channel list is out of date - so while the parameters for say Tiny Pop are there, the VPID and APID are wrong, so only the EPG is displayed. When you do a transponder scan, the receiver sees the channel is already in the database and does not scan in the channel with the updated PIDs.

You can check if this is the problem as follows:
1. Do a FULL factory reset - wipe everything.
2. At this point there should be no channels on the receiver whatsoever.
3. Do not load your preloaded list. Do not preform a satellite scan.
4. Do a manual transponder scan on 11642MHz, V, 27500.

Report back what happens.

ciaran_otoole

Good news finally! It turns out that the wireless router was causing the interference on this transponder. I turned off the router and was able to see the channels. The pre-loaded channels worked fine so the issue appeared to be more due to the interference than the channel settings. I re-ran a full scan just to be sure, but the pre-loaded channels worked fine.

Thanks again for all the advise.

fat-tony

That's fine - I'm glad we were able to help.

I'll now sit back and bask in the elevation of my status to that of supreme diagnostic god:D:D:D

ciaran_otoole

All hail the Diagnotic God

Rippy

I can confirm this transponder is affected more than any other by dect phones and wireless routers.
I have seen it many, many, times.
Move base station and/or change sat. down lead to wf100/ ct100 equivalent.
Problem is usually RF leaking into cable.

Apogee

I'd have thought that interference from a DECT phone or wireless device would be reflected in the quality level i.e. low or fluctuations?

fat-tony

The RF from the interfering DECT phone (not sure why a 2.4GHz wireless router would do this unless there's a sideband at 1.8 - 1.9GHz, I'm sure watty will provide a technical answer to this) is swamping the RF coming down the cable. The receiver should display very low quality and may not be able to construct any image from the MPEG-2 stream. It may be able to recover enough data from the stream to display the EPG now and next info as this is transmitted continuously. This is all relative to the field strength and frequency of the interfering signal, so it may be enough just to move the device away.
In my case I have to put the DECT handset right beside the cables to cause a problem. A DECT base station would probably emit more signal that a handset. Poorly screened cables or low signal from the LNB would exacerbate the problem.

Apogee

fat-tony wrote: »

The RF from the interfering DECT phone (not sure why a 2.4GHz wireless router would do this unless there's a sideband at 1.8 - 1.9GHz, I'm sure watty will provide a technical answer to this) is swamping the RF coming down the cable. The receiver should display very low quality and may not be able to construct any image from the MPEG-2 stream. It may be able to recover enough data from the stream to display the EPG now and next info as this is transmitted continuously. This is all relative to the field strength and frequency of the interfering signal, so it may be enough just to move the device away.

I agree with all the above but the OP never mentioned anything odd with the quality level.

In my case I have to put the DECT handset right beside the cables to cause a problem. A DECT base station would probably emit more signal that a handset. Poorly screened cables or low signal from the LNB would exacerbate the problem.

I've seen a case where an internal dish in an appartment used to display artefacts when an electric razor was in use, eventhough the cable was Raydex CT100. The suggested solution was both simple and effective - stop shaving and grow a beard!

ciaran_otoole

Not sure if this adds to the conversation, but there was no image or sound when the wireless router and phone were placed next to the STB, although the EPG seemed to work ok. By moving the router and phone away a few meters (still plugged in) I was able to see a poor quality image although very jumpy and not continuous and no audio.

I've since relocated these to another room and there's no issue with interference now.

fat-tony

The reason the EPG (now and next) was ok, was that the box had it stored. It obviously couldn't display the transmitted image data because the DECT/router signal was/were interfering with real-time reception of it.

Tony

Ciaran out of curiosity what type of cable is being used from the dish to the receiver?