The Power of Porn

Fanny Cradock

I'm somewhat reluctant to post on the subject matter because the people out there who believe that Christians are obsessed with sex or the repression of it would seemingly be coddled in their stereotypical beliefs. But let's not generalise!

Moving on...

Over the last while I've been working my way through some talks found in The Veritas Forum, and I've just finished listening to a talk entitled The Power of Porn by Gene McConnell and Kimberly Drake.

This talk is basically the story of how two unconnected people got into porn, the effects it had on their lives and what it took to get them out. Even though the talk was an hour and a half long, I was absolutely spellbound (not sure that's the correct word) by their testimonies, which certainly contain some ghastly details, and the subsequent paths to recovery.

Neither of them are prudes or anti-sex, nor do they shove the Jesus card down the audiences' neck - in fact I would say that the "J" or "G" words only appear in about 5% of the talk. There is no pontification or pointing the finger at the audience. Instead they approach the discussion in a mature and brutally honest fashion, which clearly causes the speakers some discomforts, and always stress that this is their story and allow the audience to make of it what they will.

After listening to them you can't help but wonder if porn is really as benign as some think.

Wow! What a talk.


::MOD NOTE::

As Wacker has kindly done, please use your discretion and put anything graphic in spoilers. This will leave the mods time to see if everything is acceptable without offending anyone's sensibilities. However, I really don't want this to be a swap on horror stories, so there will be absolutely no tolerance for messing.

Ultimately this is a discussion on the catastrophic effects porn had on two peoples' lives and how they overcame their destructive lifestyles through Jesus. In this regard it would seem essential to actually have listened to the link. Though I have heard that threads on the internetz sometimes go off on tangents

Wacker

You can't generalize about porn, because it's too big and varied. I'd say most of it is quite harmless, and I'm not going to spend any time discussing why unless someone asks.
However, look up the sort of material produced by the likes of Max Hardcore and Rob Black, if you dare. I'll respect the sensibilities of posters here by describing stuff of theirs that I've heard about in spoiler tags, but Mods, feel free to get rid of what comes next if you feel it to be necessary:

: Rob Black put out a film that depicts (acted, of course) the abduction and raping of a girl in a wheelchair. A favourite trick of Max Hardcore is to write 'SLUT' across girl's faces in lipstick, and he actually holds their heads in toilets and flushes while doing his thing

. To say that this is not degrading is quite frankly displaying horrendous delusions; I'd go as far as to say that the degradation is the whole point of a large part of porn. I would be quite worried about people who are in to that sort of thing.

Here's an excellent, if long, read. It's a blog written by a real 21st century liberal woman about her experiences in working as a cashier in a video store that stocked a lot of porn. It describes how what she sees challenges her preconceptions. It is really worth the time:

http://www.deepveininsomnia.com/SBcopsc1.php

Nodin

(I presume by "porn" they mean videos of couples and various combinations having sex)

I've no doubt that some end up addicted to it. However, there are people who are alcoholics, manage to kick the booze, and for some years don't notice the way they have rooms full of items they've bought, opened and never looked at again....

Suffice to say I believe that some amongst us are afflicted with a certain psychology that renders them 'vulnerable'. Whilst it struck me as suprising that imagery would be a danger to some of them, the human mind is a strange and complex thing. It is the mind however, where the problem lies, not the imagery as such.

That being said, if there is a problem with pornography, its probably in it creating false expectations and setting rather strange ideas of whats "normal" in terms of sex and body type. Thus it should be restricted to those of an age able to tell reality from fantasy.

Fanny Cradock

Nodin wrote: »

(I presume by "porn" they mean videos of couples and various combinations having sex)

No. He uses it as an umbrella term to include a whole range of activity.

Nodin wrote: »

I've no doubt that some end up addicted to it. However, there are people who are alcoholics, manage to kick the booze, and for some years don't notice the way they have rooms full of items they've bought, opened and never looked at again....

I'm guessing that you haven't heard it before, nor you can listen to speech at 3 times the speed of normal people, i.e. Dave Fanning speed. Because I'm not sure what you are getting at here. It doesn't really relate to the talk.

Nodin wrote: »

It is the mind however, where the problem lies, not the imagery as such.

Well, that is like saying that the problem isn't with the coke, it's with the addict. True in a sense. But to divorce the drug from the problem and reduce it into two into separate elements - the addict and the addiction - seems to .

Nodin wrote: »

That being said, if there is a problem with pornography, its probably in it creating false expectations and setting rather strange ideas of whats "normal" in terms of sex and body type.

Indeed, this was one of his points. And it was this exact mindset that basically destroyed his life but the ripples also had tragic effects on both his wife and daughter.

PDN

Everett Koop, former US Surgeon General, used to talk about the 'rape myth' that apparently figures largely in pornography. This is the idea that women derive sexual pleasure from being raped.

I really don't see how the propagation of such a notion can provide anything positive for society.

Black Swan

It would seem that there are very few women into porn watching? Does anyone wonder why? What audience does it primarily cater to? My boatmate somehow talked me into watching porn vids once, and after I got over the initial shock, I began to laugh at the role plays expected of women. The porn fantasies were so immature, unreal, and down right silly. How could anyone take it seriously?

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

Everett Koop, former US Surgeon General, used to talk about the 'rape myth' that apparently figures largely in pornography. This is the idea that women derive sexual pleasure from being raped.

I'm not going to pretend there isn't that type of stuff, but the pornography industry is far more mainstream that it was in Koop's day, and things like the Max Hardcore stuff is on the fringes.

The mainstreaming of pornography has forced the industry from an underground anything that sells goes type industry into one where things like fake rape are pushed to the fringes. You are not going to find that stuff unless you specifically go looking for it, and it doesn't feature in most pornography.

Zombrex

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

How could anyone take it seriously?

I don't think they do. The "actors" know the plots (for want of a better word) are nonsense, and that no one is watching it for the story anyway. Some of them are quite intentionally funny.

Zombrex

BTW is this thread about porn or about being saved from porn by Jesus? I don't want to get accused of being off topic again. I've really nothing to add about the second bit

Fanny Cradock

Well, given that this is on the Christianity, forum it would be nice to keep it relevant. In other words, talk about the talk. Then again, I realise that 1 1/2 hrs is a big commitment, so we can have a bit of leeway on this one. Tangents away...

Fanny Cradock

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

It would seem that there are very few women into porn watching? Does anyone wonder why? What audience does it primarily cater to? My boatmate somehow talked me into watching porn vids once, and after I got over the initial shock, I began to laugh at the role plays expected of women. The porn fantasies were so immature, unreal, and down right silly. How could anyone take it seriously?

It's funny, but in talk he played a vox pop recorded earlier in the day with kids from the campus (ugh, I'm so old) and that response or a type of pornographic relativism seemed to be the predominant female opinion. Oddly, and I realise that you can't really look too deeply into such things, there seemed to be a larger spread of male opinion on porn. This ranged from the enthusiastic to outright condemnation.

How could anyone take it seriously? Well, I would have though that porn could have been dangerous for some people before hearing the talk. Now, however, I would be of the opinion that for some people it most definitely is a form of reality and a destructive one at that.

PDN

Wicknight wrote: »

I'm not going to pretend there isn't that type of stuff, but the pornography industry is far more mainstream that it was in Koop's day, and things like the Max Hardcore stuff is on the fringes.

The mainstreaming of pornography has forced the industry from an underground anything that sells goes type industry into one where things like fake rape are pushed to the fringes. You are not going to find that stuff unless you specifically go looking for it, and it doesn't feature in most pornography.

You're kidding right? You must have a better spam blocker than me on your email programme!

Zombrex

PDN wrote: »

You're kidding right? You must have a better spam blocker than me on your email programme!

You should use Gmail :pac:

What I meant was you aren't going to go into an video store in the States and rent a Vivid Video (the biggest mainstream studio) hardcore movie to enjoy with the wife and half way through find a woman being fake raped.

You might see 3 women very over enthusiastically having sex with one guy, and some really ridiculous plots, but this sort of stuff isn't in mainstream porn.

JC 2K3

PDN wrote: »

You're kidding right? You must have a better spam blocker than me on your email programme!

?

You get spam about extreme hardcore pornography? The most boarderline pornographic spam I get would be about adult dating sites.

And how would you know how extreme it was unless you actually opened the spam and investigated it?

PDN

JC 2K3 wrote: »

?

You get spam about extreme hardcore pornography? The most boarderline pornographic spam I get would be about adult dating sites.

And how would you know how extreme it was unless you actually opened the spam and investigated it?

I can read the subject line and see the link to www.rapemykidsister.com

Mickeroo

PDN wrote: »

I can read the subject line and see the link to www.rapemykidsister.com

That's not a real url.

PDN

Mickeroo wrote: »

That's not a real url.

I know. I made it up. It was a fiendish Christian trick to see who would be perverted enough to click on it, and then who would be dumb enough to own up to being perverted enough to have clicked on it.

Mickeroo

PDN wrote: »

I know. I made it up. It was a fiendish Christian trick to see who would be perverted enough to click on it, and then who would be dumb enough to own up to being perverted enough to have clicked on it.

You crack me up.

JC 2K3

Eep....

IME, such spam is pretty unusual, and I'd still bet that any of that spam does not in fact link to child or rape porn, or any porn at all really, it's probably just viruses/spyware. I would agree with Wicknight, you really do have to go looking for extreme forms of porn if you want it. (That said, it doesn't exactly require much looking, but you have to at least actively search for it on google)

I think this is off topic though.

I didn't listen to the whole talk, but there's no doubt that over indulgence in porn is not healthy for the mind (in terms of both creating unrealistic sexual expectations of women (or men) and creating an obsession with sex and an addiction to sexual release). However, I think its fine in moderation and wouldn't support censorship. I think most people who watch it don't overindulge and I don't think something should be made illegal just because a minority of people don't have the will power to keep their use moderate (I've the same opinion of drugs, as you'll know if you've ever read any of my AH posts on the subject).

Support for those who don't have this will power and end up over using porn to their detriment is a good thing however, and if that support includes a belief in Jesus Christ I'm not too concerned (except for the fact that those who were "saved" from their lack of will power by religion tend to be the most preachy ones).

Iago

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

It would seem that there are very few women into porn watching? Does anyone wonder why?

In my experience that's incorrect, but it's also off-topic for this thread so I won't pursue the point.

Porn, like most other things is benign or malignant not on the basis of what it contains but on the basis of who views or is involved in it. Books and films that glamourise violence and degradation (either sexual, spiritual or physical) don't make every reader/viewer go out and commit these acts, or even consider the possibility or attraction of committing those acts.

Could they act as an enabler for a person whose natural tendencies were that way inclined? Prossibly and maybe even probably. Does that mean that the creators have a legal requirement to desist, no. A moral and ethical requirement to desist, I don't believe so. Ultimately I think that people will still do the evil things they do whether they receive perceived encouragement or not.

An addiction to porn is as bad as an addiction to anything else, ultimately it will drag you down and impact on everyone around you.

Fanny Cradock

JC 2K3 wrote: »

Eep....

I didn't listen to the whole talk...

Support for those who don't have this will power and end up over using porn to their detriment is a good thing however, and if that support includes a belief in Jesus Christ I'm not too concerned (except for the fact that those who were "saved" from their lack of will power by religion tend to be the most preachy ones).

Well, with regards to the talk they certainly weren't hurling bibles from the rostrum. Do you remember them mentioning Jesus once in the first hour or so?

who007

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

It would seem that there are very few women into porn watching? Does anyone wonder why? What audience does it primarily cater to? My boatmate somehow talked me into watching porn vids once, and after I got over the initial shock, I began to laugh at the role plays expected of women. The porn fantasies were so immature, unreal, and down right silly. How could anyone take it seriously?

Woah there! I've only ever been with 2 women who didn't actually enjoy porn - and I mean the hardcore group stuff! It's not just the domani of men any more.

JC 2K3

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Well, with regards to the talk they certainly weren't hurling bibles from the rostrum. Do you remember them mentioning Jesus once in the first hour or so?

Nope, what I listened to wasn't religiously orientated at all.

prinz

It overloads the senses, is addictive, presents a false picture of sexuality and generally leads to unhappiness and dissatisfaction. There aren't enough upsides to counter that.

Goduznt Xzst

why did that title make me think of a porno version of Back to the Future

Doc Brown: "if my calculations are correct if you hit that at 69Mph you're going to see some serious sh!t"

no but seriously, yeah Porn is bad. Stop watching it. Oh and look both ways crossing the street.

JimiTime

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

After listening to them you can't help but wonder if porn is really as benign as some think.

Wow! What a talk.

Wow what a talk indeed. I have to say, I've never thought of porn as benign myself though. I pretty much agree with all his conclusions about the damage that such a thing can do. Some of the bits about his daughter were really moving too. I actually couldn't believe the stuff in the cartoons that were in the porn mags neither. Again, I have to say, I have thought that this world sexualises children shamelessly, a point which he also makes. I really enjoyed this guys testimony, and I think in our 'fast speed internet' age, its something we should be really trying to protect our children and teenagers from. It is viewed as normal and blasé, no big deal etc. I would see it as the worst kind of Junk food for ones mind and sexuality, and thats before we get into the fact that you are supporting this horrible industry and its seedy expoitative underbelly.

Thanks for the link.

Ciaran500

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

It would seem that there are very few women into porn watching? Does anyone wonder why? What audience does it primarily cater to? My boatmate somehow talked me into watching porn vids once, and after I got over the initial shock, I began to laugh at the role plays expected of women. The porn fantasies were so immature, unreal, and down right silly. How could anyone take it seriously?

Doesn't sound like you've seen much porn

Theres a massive variation in the types of porn around and porn directed at women is getting more and more common place.

Zombrex

Ciaran500 wrote: »

Theres a massive variation in the types of porn around and porn directed at women is getting more and more common place.

Same with porn directed by women

Wacker

Don't really care about the issue at hand. Porn is porn. Much like everything else in the world, there are some who love it, some who hate it and some who really don't care that much either way.

Anyway, the reason im posting;

Wacker wrote: »

Here's an excellent, if long, read. It's a blog written by a real 21st century liberal woman about her experiences in working as a cashier in a video store that stocked a lot of porn. It describes how what she sees challenges her preconceptions. It is really worth the time:

http://www.deepveininsomnia.com/SBcopsc1.php

Just had to say thanks for that link, it's a great read. I'm almost finished it now. Very interesting and entertaining.

Bougeoir

I don't really like porn actually. It's not that I'm anti-porn which I'm not or really really religious and think it's sinful which I'm definitely not. I just don't like it. I mean some of it is ok like really mild stuff but I was in a sex shop with my friend before and there was all this really vulgar, disgusting porn which made my stomach churn. But I think sex and stuff is a very personal sort of area and it would be wrong for me to judge sb if they were into porn. Of course if it is harmful like child porn or some really disturbing porn snuff films then naturally something must be done about that.

Wacker

Deleted User wrote: »

Don't really care about the issue at hand. Porn is porn. Much like everything else in the world, there are some who love it, some who hate it and some who really don't care that much either way.

Anyway, the reason im posting;







Just had to say thanks for that link, it's a great read. I'm almost finished it now. Very interesting and entertaining.

You're very welcome.

,8,1

Here's an excellent, if long, read. It's a blog written by a real 21st century liberal woman about her experiences in working as a cashier in a video store that stocked a lot of porn. It describes how what she sees challenges her preconceptions. It is really worth the time:

http://www.deepveininsomnia.com/SBcopsc1.php

What's so great about it? She's reproducing the standard feminist reaction to porn:

What I learned in Women's Studies is that porn is not necessarily degrading. What I've learned at the video store is that sometimes it is.

My position on porn hasn't really changed. I would still defend to my death the right to produce it.

Nothing out of the ordinary.

,8,1

Wacker wrote: »

A favourite trick of Max Hardcore is to write 'SLUT' across girl's faces in lipstick, and he actually holds their heads in toilets and flushes while doing his thing

.To say that this is not degrading is quite frankly displaying horrendous delusions.

I'll say it's not degrading because "degradation" is relative. And there's always the old "consenting individuals can do what they want in their own private lives".

Porn has been deemed "free speech" by the US Supreme Court, and thus, the rest of the world. Adding delineations of "acceptability" was not in their heads at all. The whole status quo towards porn today is on the basis that there is no censorship and no boundaries of decency.

Were boundaries of decency an issue, or if they were deemed legitimate in the first place, we would probably have much less tolerance of porn in general.

Someone who is pro-porn bringing up the idea of decency boundaries is somewhat hypocritical.

Everett Koop, former US Surgeon General, used to talk about the 'rape myth' that apparently figures largely in pornography. This is the idea that women derive sexual pleasure from being raped.

I'm not sure what Everett was talking about, but people should be aware that there is no link between porn and increased incidence of rape. That idea gets interjected into the discussion every so often; it has no basis whatsoever.