Is there a bias towards Men over Women in Irish Athletics (split thread)

thirtyfoot

Stupid_Private wrote: »

On the scale of things breaking this record is bigger than the bronzes won last week in the european indoors.

I think this depends on your perspective and your proximity bias. In running/athletics its all about the hardware (as Mary Cullen might say) in my opinion . Times are good and great but the championships is where its at. Martin Fagan will no doubt be a great athlete in future champs and who knows a top 10 could be on the cards in Berlin but to say a half-marathon record is bigger than winning a medal even if it was only the European Indoors is a little bit over the top.

You are a man (I presume) and do long distance so that is understandable from your perspective but as regards the general media and general public and even the athletics community its about the hardware. Martin is probably the top half-marathoner in Europe now and will be favourite for a medal in both Dublin '09 and Barcelona '10 but until he does he will play second fiddle to medal winners.

Sorry if this seems negative as I am a big fan of Fagan and thought he was gone as an athlete when he hobbled off the track in the 3k in Cork in '07 and his comeback to realise his potential has been massively motivational. But two things that p*ss me off about Irish athletics are (i) the massive bias and acceptance of male atheltes over female athletes and (ii) the fascination and striving of athletes to get fast times which sometimes means they forget how to race in championship/tactical races. Unfortunately timetrial racing is dictated by the fast race put on by directors at the elite level but also at the national level by athletes who just seem to run BMC races for a good time and get destroyed when they are faced to think or react in a slow typically championship style race. Timetrial racing won't be a problem for Fagan as he just goes hard anyway but it does apply to many athletes. Bit off topic but it grinds my gears. Medals lads, thats what its all about (which Fagan can no doubt get in Santry in December)!!!!

TheRoadRunner

Hi Tingle, I'd agree a lot of what you have said.

I thing the point SP might have been trying to make is that the half marathon record that Fagan broke is a long standing distance record, and lets be honest up until a couple of years ago non of these records were under threat. It's a big achievement and won't get the recognition it deserves. I would agree with you that medals are more important than time IMO.

Regarding the attention bias towards males. Do you really believe this exists especially seen as most of our recent medal winners/prospects are female ?

Going further off topic. I was talking to a friend of mine a couple of weeks back after the interclub x-country and we were talking about the lack of dept in quality in the ladies race. However, by the end of the conversation we had the Irish women's team medaling (we reckon minimum of silver ) in next years euros when we put the best 6 ladies down on paper. In our opinion and in no particular order
1) Britton
2) Cullen
3) McCambridge
4) McGettigan
5) Linda Byrne
6) Deirdre Byrne

The junior team are in a similar position. They have (not too sure about next year though) 4 stand out athletes relative to the rest of the field that have a realistic chance of medaling and narrowly missed out this year due to sickness of one of the ffrench O'carrolls if I remember correctly.

Based on that and what Cullen and O'Rourke have done in the indoors my mind boggles how we would do in major champs if there was a concerted effort to keep girls interested in running. The Russians would be running scared :cool:

**Just reread this and I have gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy off topic maybe I shoud move the second part of this to a new thread**

thirtyfoot

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Hi Tingle, I'd agree a lot of what you have said.

I thing the point SP might have been trying to make is that the half marathon record that Fagan broke is a long standing distance record, and lets be honest up until a couple of years ago non of these records were under threat. It's a big achievement and won't get the recognition it deserves. I would agree with you that medals are more important than time IMO.

Thats true and I would love to see him break or get close to Cragg's 10k record in the summer.

TheRoadRunner wrote: »

Regarding the attention bias towards males. Do you really believe this exists especially seen as most of our recent medal winners/prospects are female ?

Going further off topic. I was talking to a friend of mine a couple of weeks back after the interclub x-country and we were talking about the lack of dept in quality in the ladies race. However, by the end of the conversation we had the Irish women's team medaling (we reckon minimum of silver ) in next years euros when we put the best 6 ladies down on paper. In our opinion and in no particular order
1) Britton
2) Cullen
3) McCambridge
4) McGettigan
5) Linda Byrne
6) Deirdre Byrne

The junior team are in a similar position. They have (not too sure about next year though) 4 stand out athletes relative to the rest of the field that have a realistic chance of medaling and narrowly missed out this year due to sickness of one of the ffrench O'carrolls if I remember correctly.

Based on that and what Cullen and O'Rourke have done in the indoors my mind boggles how we would do in major champs if there was a concerted effort to keep girls interested in running. The Russians would be running scared :cool:

**Just reread this and I have gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy off topic maybe I shoud move the second part of this to a new thread**

Thats the funny thing alright. The depth in womens is so much weaker than mens yet the hardware or qualifications for majors are coming from the women. Its the same at Junior, women very strong. Eamon Coghlan was on during the Euro Indoors on RTE and was talking about the great juniors we have coming through. He proceeded to list off a gaggle of good but by no means world beating domestically based male middle distance athletes, quite a few he coaches himself. No mention of Mageean or Everard or the Twins. I see this a lot.

Maybe I'll split this as it has little to do with Martin's tats unless he has one that says "All Womens Are Bitches"

Peckham

Tingle wrote: »

But two things that p*ss me off about Irish athletics are (i) the massive bias and acceptance of male atheltes over female athletes

This is surely a wider issue than just athletics - "male sports" generally get a lot more coverage than "female sports".

thirtyfoot

Peckham wrote: »

This is surely a wider issue than just athletics - "male sports" generally get a lot more coverage than "female sports".

Thats true. But in our sport they can be and are equal. Apart from Decathlon and Heptathlon there is now parity. Football, GAA, Rugby, Golf are all unisex sports by and large. Athletics/running are done together with at the end of the day the same gold, silver or bronze medal. Maybe more money for the top guys like Bolt but I wonder does Radcliffe do as well as Geb when winning and breaking records, maybe not sure.

The problem is when it is overwhelminly obvious that women are more successfull than men and yet the old boys still hark back and don't give the just dues. US track is the same in middle/long distance. They have been waiting for the next Ryun/Prefontaine for years and every guy is the next great hope. Maybe thats it in that many of the commentators or journalists or athletic fans I know are male and ex middle/long distance and thats their focus - male middle/long distance.

As Roadrunner says, what would happen if we kept all the women in the sport?

Stupid_Private

Bah - I can't reply to this now.... The new thread title has absolutely nothing to do with my original post besides the fact that Tingle went with the fact that I am a man....

Running Bing

I must say I never really thought there was a bias in this country towards male athletes.

When you look at the last decade or so the only athletes who have really become household names are the likes of Sonia, Derval and now Mary Cullen and to a lesser extent Gillick and Hess.


I also think this will become even more pronounced in future. Young girls have people like Derval and Mary Cullen to look up to and while boys with athletic promise have the very glamorous allure of the football pitch (be it soccer or GAA) for athleticly gifted young girls athletics is a very attractive option.

This is coming from a more mainstream viewpoint though. I would not have a great knowledge of underage athletics or of Irish athletes beyond the big names (i.e. the olympians and very promising younger runners) so maybe Im missing something.

thirtyfoot

Stupid_Private wrote: »

Bah - I can't reply to this now.... The new thread title has absolutely nothing to do with my original post besides the fact that Tingle went with the fact that I am a man....

No, probably still relevant to reply. Mary Cullen broke Sonia's 3k indoor record and got a similar (and I would say justified) muted response in mainstream media despite Sonia being more of a mainstream name than John Treacy. Her medal run was slower than her solo 8:43 in a gym in Boston but the medal is so much more important. Having said that Treacy's HM time could have been more impressive than Sonia's indoor 3k, I don't know.

dna_leri

Tingle wrote: »

No, probably still relevant to reply. Mary Cullen broke Sonia's 3k indoor record and got a similar (and I would say justified) muted response in mainstream media despite Sonia being more of a mainstream name than John Treacy. Her medal run was slower than her solo 8:43 in a gym in Boston but the medal is so much more important. Having said that Treacy's HM time could have been more impressive than Sonia's indoor 3k, I don't know.

Mary Cullen has obviously got more attention for breaking Sonia's record and then winning a medal than someone who just breaks a record. So where is the bias there?

Fagan's record is to be admired but it takes ths edge of it that he was not even in the top 3 when he it did.

In the general media, I see little evidence of bias towards men in Irish athletics, but in the old boys network its still there.

Hard Worker

In a different thread, a question was asked "who won the Wheelworx duathlon". A reply was given shortly afterwards. Obviously in most peoples minds, there is only one winner, the male winner. It was forgotton and ignored that Bronagh Ni Bhriain was also the winner. But she's a woman.
Yes, there is a bias.

thirstywork

maybe this is slightly of the topic but if you compare male v female athletics in Ireland at a club level you will see that male competition is of a much higher standard.
Im a distance runner so will base most of my opinions around this but Tingle makes some good points in regards to a medal meaning more than a time and i know alot of lads who base there whole season on a pb rather than a national medal.
Last year i know runners who went to Belgium to run a race rather than run the nationals.
Even fagan did it one year and the following day was beaten or did he win the 5k(cant remember if it was the year Murray beat him)
The womens national cross had alot of veteran athetes fill the top 10 positions and even though maria Mc is in great shape she is training for a marathon around the corner so im sure the win was a bonus/suprise for her.getting of the topic and waffling here sogona shutup;)

myflipflops

To argue the opening quote of the thread, you have to define the 'scale' that is being used to judge the merits of each achievement.

Fagan's half marathon time is a more impressive achievement than Mary's bronze medal run when comparing them as physical athletic accomplishments. Fagan ran with someone considered one of the greatest 2/3 distance runners in history for 15k. The quality of the guys in front of him was world class. (This is my opinion, i havent ran the stats on it to compare the too, i would guess that they would back me up though).

In terms of meaning to a career, I would insist that Mary Cullens bronze has more value. I think Fagan would give up his time for a medal at a major European championship in a heartbeat (no 'it's only indoors' argument from me).

With relation to value to Irish Athletics as a whole, there is no comparison. Medals is what the public judge our athletes by. If the mainstream media and general public picked up on world class performances outside major Championships then Mark Carroll would be a household name in this country. 3.34/7.30/13.03/2.10 - the guys times are unreal. Add in the fact that he also won a bronze at Euro outdoors and gold indoors and you begin to realise what you need to do to get recognition.

The discussion on the attitudes towards womens/mens athletics in this country is a separate arguement to have. On the face it, womens athletics should be a joke in this country. The only thing you have to do in order to make the final of a National Senior track championship is fill out the form and pay the few quid. To make the Junior girls Euro Cross team, you have to finish in the top 25% or so in the intercounties.

Despite the basic figures, we are continuing to churn athletes to compete successfully on the world stage. From Sonia, Mckiernan, Gillian O'Sullivan, Derval, Mary Cullen, Finnualla Britton, Olive Loughnane and now Kelly Proper looks a real star in the making. It's mind boggling that this occurs. When you consider the relative numbers that compete in athletics between the sexes, our top level of women far outstrip the men. This could possibly be explained by two reasons:

1. The quality of womens athletics at the highest level (World/Olympic/European) is lower than that in the mens events.

2. We have some serious talent on the female side of the sport and it needs to be mined into straight away at a core level.

thirtyfoot

Hard Worker wrote: »

In a different thread, a question was asked "who won the Wheelworx duathlon". A reply was given shortly afterwards. Obviously in most peoples minds, there is only one winner, the male winner. It was forgotton and ignored that Bronagh Ni Bhriain was also the winner. But she's a woman.
Yes, there is a bias.

Thats a good point and probably something we are all guilty of. For example a thread of 'who will win the inter-clubs' or 'who is running this or that' will invariably be about the men. Maybe its just the internet world that there is this bias.

hunnymonster

Leaving aside the Fagan/Cullen comparison for the moment, there are at least 3 issues that I see
1. the old boys network that has been mentioned, most of our reporters/commentators are men and grew up with the mens events and records
2. women don't do as much sport as men - men run, women diet to stay in shape appears to be how it works in Ireland. With less women taking part the logical result is less quality at the top.
3. Men are ultimately faster, stronger (and longer, higher, further or whatever you're measuring). While we can appreciate best within gender, we are naturally drawn to absolute best.

ChickenTikka

pwhite587 wrote: »

Despite the basic figures, we are continuing to churn athletes to compete successfully on the world stage. From Sonia, Mckiernan, Gillian O'Sullivan, Derval, Mary Cullen, Finnualla Britton, Olive Loughnane and now Kelly Proper looks a real star in the making. It's mind boggling that this occurs. When you consider the relative numbers that compete in athletics between the sexes, our top level of women far outstrip the men. This could possibly be explained by two reasons:

1. The quality of womens athletics at the highest level (World/Olympic/European) is lower than that in the mens events.

2. We have some serious talent on the female side of the sport and it needs to be mined into straight away at a core level.

I think the quality of our female athletes vs quality of our male athletes can be explained quite simply ... for top class sports women, athletics is right up there in the top echleon of sports which they might choose as their main sport.

For top class sports men in Ireland, most end up playing one of the team sports GAA, soccer or rubgy. Athletics doesn't have the same attraction. In many cases, becoming an intercounty hurling or Gaelic football star is viewed as a higher calling/achivement that becoming an international male athlete. But for girls, intercounty camogie or football doesn't get much recognition in Ireland. How many senior intercounty (any county) lady footballers/camogie players can you name? How many male intercounty football/hurlers can you name?

So our sport attracts more elite potential women than it does men because it offers greater recognition.

Its not just athletics that there is a bias against the female side of it. In fact, I'd say there is very little bias in athletics compared to most sports ... GAA for one, golf for another, ladies boxing for another. If Katie Taylor was a man, she'd be a National hero. Pick up any paper any day and how much of the sports pages are devoted to women's sport. So the bias is against female sport in general ... but athletics is probably better than most or possibly all others in terms of female athletes been recognised/applauded.

Its great to see the likes of Brona Furlong in Wexford who excels at both camogie and athletics. Or Gillick who excelled at GAA and then swapped to athletics. Pity there isn't more of that as it would greatly boost athletics participation if it were viewed as a partner sport rather than a rival sport for the team sports.

If Paul Hession hurled with Athenry, perhaps it would be they rather than Portumna who picked up the hurling interclubs title yesterday :-)

Running Bing

ChickenTikka wrote: »

Its not just athletics that there is a bias against the female side of it. In fact, I'd say there is very little bias in athletics compared to most sports ... GAA for one, golf for another, ladies boxing for another. If Katie Taylor was a man, she'd be a National hero. Pick up any paper any day and how much of the sports pages are devoted to women's sport. So the bias is against female sport in general ... but athletics is probably better than most or possibly all others in terms of female athletes been recognised/applauded.

It might sound harsh, unfair but the bias is pretty rational tbh. Female GAA and boxing is nowhere near the standard of the male version. Also as an avid boxing fan I think its only to fair to point out that while a great achievement and something the country should be proud of, you can hardly compare Katie's success to the male equivalent. Male and female boxing are completely different levels.

As an illustration Katie boxes and represents the country at the highest level in football. A man could never do that simply because of the depth of quality in both sports.


As far as the triathlon is concerned, again it might not be fair but it is pretty rational. When somebody ask "who won" the first thing we think of is the first person to cross the line....even if the female victory took equal talent and dedication.

Athletics is a bit different to other sports and like I said I dont think there is a bias there at a media level or from the general public. The reason for that is very clear imo, quality.

The reason sports like football get more attention on the male side is nothing to do with gender, its about quality....the same reason the Premier League gets more attention and recognition than the League of Ireland. The quality and standard of female athletics is very high and often just as good if not more entertaining than the male equivalent and so it gets equal attention.


I know Im waffling on but the bottom line is you cannnot compare female athletics with femals Boxing, GAA or football.

myflipflops

ChickenTikka wrote: »

I think the quality of our female athletes vs quality of our male athletes can be explained quite simply ... for top class sports women, athletics is right up there in the top echleon of sports which they might choose as their main sport.

So our sport attracts more elite potential women than it does men because it offers greater recognition

You see, i disagree with this theory. I don't think the sport attracts any more potentially talented female athletes than other sports. In fact, I reckon if you compared the numbers of women/girls engaging in competitive Gaa compared to competitive athletics (at schools/junior/senior level in both sports), you would find the GAA have a much bigger participation rate and a smaller drop off rate at all stages.

In fact, i think we definately lose talented female athletes from athletics because they go off any compete in toher sports, as well as just stopping playing sport altogether. People simply simply don't see athletics as a more attractive proposition despite the potential recognition involved in comparison with other womens sports.

ChickenTikka wrote: »

Or Gillick who excelled at GAA and then swapped to athletics.

Off topic but this statement always makes me laugh. I was at school with Gillick and i played football with Ballinteer St Johns at an age grade below him. He was a reasonable Gaelic Footballer. He probably would have played senior football with the Johns 1st team but no more (i was an atrocious footballer, may have subbed for the junior 8ths). This idea that he was an immensely talented GAA player who would have played inter county football is just completely false. It's just a great example of the publicity power of the GAA - not one newspaper i read at the time described him as a DSD athlete (also my former club). Every time, he was Balinteer St Johns clubman David Gillick. It was like the GAA was single handedly responsible for the creation of his athlete.

ChickenTikka

Its a matter of opinion I guess. The experience in our club is that talented girls stick at athletics longer than talented boys ... because the talented boys have too much sport on and the other sports are more attractive to them ... whereas the girls don't have as many sports competing for their time.

Re Gillick, I had thought I read somewhere that he represented Dublin at underage level? I guess not?

shels4ever

I'm all for equality , so I say scrap all men's and womens national records and only have one record