Good IT/developer salary?

donegal1

Hi, what would you consider to be GOOD salary (upper end of what is realistic) for an experienced IT professional in Co. Donegal (or Dublin or anywhere for that matter)?

I've looked at salary surveys but the averages on some surveys seem far off.

E.g. specifically, for a senior java developer/architect with 10+ years experience, at a midsize company (+/- 20 developers). I'm trying to see where I fit on the scale.

Thanks!

Thumpette

I would think (for Dublin anyway) you should be looking around 70k as things are, however I have heard of people at that level getting up to 100k in better times.

Depends on the industry experience too... a lot of places seem to be looking for specific financial experience for example.

Dunno about Donegal- is there many places other than Pramerica? I dont think they pay so great- maybe 55-60....

BostonB

I wonder will salaries be hit now though. I can see IT projects taking a hit in a recession.

AARRRGH

It really depends on the company, but 70k is not unreasonable. Or at least, wasn't before the recession.

qwytre

With your experience, if its for a straight forward developer role then 55-60k give or take.

60-65k if you are a team lead.

70-80k as architect, maybe more.

bobbbb

As far as i can see the recession hasnt hit IT Development yet - unless youre in a bank. In my opinion people should be bailing out of the banks now if they want to be increasing their salaries.

We're still finding it hard to get experienced staff. No shortage of inexperienced or dumb people applying though. We have to offer nice perks and finders fees to even get experienced people to come to interviews. Most people are staying put or milking it in the UK, instead of moving companies in Ireland (Possibly the only effect of the recession on IT).

Id say you should be looking at 70K min.

I know a few guys who went contracting to the UK on massive money. Big demand there too.

http://www.jobserve.com/JobListing.aspx?shid=5FB4FDDB6BF36440

Ive attached an image of the results too in case that jobserve.co.uk link doesnt work.

results for .Net are even better.

With that kind of safety valve only an hour away (plus massive expenses too when contracting) i think experienced Developers neednt worry here for a long time. Thats the main reason we cant attract experienced .net devs for €70k +.

The problem is that the pool of contractors is drying up both here and the UK because people are staying out, just in case. Therefore much harder to get good staff

daigo75

I don't want to be sound negative, but I have 10+ years experience, and I work as a team leader since 2004 (I've never worked with Java, though, I'm more focues on databases) and I still have to find offers exceeding 50K in Dublin/Wicklow area...

I'd like to figure out if I've been unlucky or if I looked in the wrong places...

bobbbb

daigo75 wrote: »

I don't want to be sound negative, but I have 10+ years experience, and I work as a team leader since 2004 (I've never worked with Java, though, I'm more focues on databases) and I still have to find offers exceeding 50K in Dublin/Wicklow area...

I'd like to figure out if I've been unlucky or if I looked in the wrong places...

What is your job description? Are you a DBA? What kind of job do you do with databases?

ie - When you do a search on job sites, what do you enter for the search.
Are you prepared to go contracting in the UK for 6 months to earn a years wages? Assuming you have a contractable skillset.

In my own experience - You get the largest salary increase when you move employer. Those staying with the same employer for too many years just get much smaller annual increments. Thats just the way is is.

chughes

Is COBOL dead ? I've been contracting for over 11 years and I'm currently "between contracts". There doesn't seem to much out there in Dublin, either permanent or contract. I'd imagine that this will have a negative effect on salary levels/contract rates.

daigo75

bobbbb wrote: »

What is your job description? Are you a DBA? What kind of job do you do with databases?

In my career I covered many positions in IT, from DBA, DB Development, Web/Client-Server Development and System Administrator, but recently I focused on a DBA and DB Development role. I'm just about to study Business Intelligence and increase my knowledge of Oracle (I really hate this database :mad:).

bobbbb wrote: »

ie - When you do a search on job sites, what do you enter for the search.
Are you prepared to go contracting in the UK for 6 months to earn a years wages? Assuming you have a contractable skillset.

I've used many keywords, but I never looked in UK. At the moment I'm not actively looking, just "keeping an eye" on the market. Besides, having a family here, I'm not really attracted by the idea of "contracting around".

bobbbb wrote: »

In my own experience - You get the largest salary increase when you move employer. Those staying with the same employer for too many years just get much smaller annual increments. Thats just the way is is.

I agree on this point. Especially in this period, with the word "recession" appearing everywhere, it'd be difficult to even get an increase, if any.

bobbbb

Companies have to pay a premium to encourage you away from your current job. When you start applying you will notice that there are more, better paid jobs around than you think.

Last month we had to pay €75k + pension and Bens for a SQL Server developer. We could have got away with paying 50 - 60k for a couple of idiots, but went for someone who is actually worth the money. Everybody is afraid to move these days and staying put.

http://irishjobs.ie/showresults.aspx?IsProvince=1&MatchPerc=40&Location=1&Ranking=&Roles=&Recruiter=Both&Category=3&cboLocation=1%2C1&KEYWORDS=dba&I7.x=0&I7.y=0

You can ignore all the ones that pay less than 60k for a DBA. They are not looking for a DBA at all. They are just looking for idiots if you ask me.

You'll find some managers really hate the idea of paying people more than they themselves get too and think you should work for them for peanuts. I wouldnt entertain these guys at all. There is a market rate. Aim for the top of it.

daigo75

bobbbb wrote: »

Companies have to pay a premium to encourage you away from your current job. When you start applying you will notice that there are more, better paid jobs around than you think.

Last month we had to pay €75k + pension and Bens for a SQL Server developer.

Wow, that's good! :eek:
In which area was that?

John_Mc

bobbbb wrote: »

Companies have to pay a premium to encourage you away from your current job. When you start applying you will notice that there are more, better paid jobs around than you think.

Last month we had to pay €75k + pension and Bens for a SQL Server developer. We could have got away with paying 50 - 60k for a couple of idiots, but went for someone who is actually worth the money. Everybody is afraid to move these days and staying put.

http://irishjobs.ie/showresults.aspx?IsProvince=1&MatchPerc=40&Location=1&Ranking=&Roles=&Recruiter=Both&Category=3&cboLocation=1%2C1&KEYWORDS=dba&I7.x=0&I7.y=0

You can ignore all the ones that pay less than 60k for a DBA. They are not looking for a DBA at all. They are just looking for idiots if you ask me.

You'll find some managers really hate the idea of paying people more than they themselves get too and think you should work for them for peanuts. I wouldnt entertain these guys at all. There is a market rate. Aim for the top of it.

Your use of the word "idiot" is an interesting way to describe someone not as qualified for a job...

bobbbb

daigo75 wrote: »

Wow, that's good! :eek:
In which area was that?

Dublin city center.

bobbbb

John_Mc wrote: »

Your use of the word "idiot" is an interesting way to describe someone not as qualified for a job...

Someone who thinks that they are better at their job than they actually are and not really worth investing in. A pet hate of mine.

I dont mind inexperienced people who i feel are actually are worth investing in, but these days you're probably better off paying for people who can hit the ground running.

the_syco

bobbbb, forgive me if I'm being too cynical, but are you an employer taking people on for this money, or a recruiter for an agency getting this money for people?

bobbbb

the_syco wrote: »

bobbbb, forgive me if I'm being too cynical, but are you an employer taking people on for this money, or a recruiter for an agency getting this money for people?

Im just trying to help people out with my take on the IT job market over the last 6 months as ive been there done that before i was in my current position - ie. looking for jobs myself.

But to answer your question.
I am a software development manager. Over the past 6 months i have been building a team for a large project from scratch so i have recent relevant experience here. The team is about 95% in place now. And trust me, it was harder to get staff than i thought, with people not wanting to move and going contracting in the UK etc.
The amount of inexperienced (say less than 5 or 6 years experience) applying for jobs they just werent going to get also stood out.

Dont talk to me about agents. The scum of the earth. But you have to deal with them to get to the people you want. They should just shut up and hand over CVs and leave it at that, without all the accompanying BS.

BostonB

I think this demonstrates very well, why theres a lack of experienced people with the right skills. Few places are prepared to train people up, or take on inexperienced people. It can only have one result in the long run. Shortage of people, and people leaving the industry.

hobochris

BostonB wrote: »

I think this demonstrates very well, why theres a lack of experienced people with the right skills. Few places are prepared to train people up, or take on inexperienced people. It can only have one result in the long run. Shortage of people, and people leaving the industry.

You've hit the nail on the head there.

I'm a junior Developer with around a years experience under my belt(not that long graduated),I got into development because of my love of programming. I have encountered this phenomena a lot regarding the attitude of employer's only wanting experienced(5-6 years +) developers.. It is disheartening to have the skills but not the experience... believe me.

I'm constantly learning about/experimenting with new languages/skills/technologies in my own time to broaden my skill set. But the fact that most employer's are not willing to take on developers with less experience makes me wonder "Whats the point?" I've had to resign myself to a development position in a small company with very little room for training or career advancement while waiting for my experience to increase while at the same time my motivation to stay in this industry is decreasing rapidly.

The way things are going I'll probably leave the industry before I've gained enough experience to be generally considering employable.

John_Mc

hobochris wrote: »

You've hit the nail on the head there.

I'm a junior Developer with around a years experience under my belt(not that long graduated),I got into development because of my love of programming. I have encountered this phenomena a lot regarding the attitude of employer's only wanting experienced(5-6 years +) developers.. It is disheartening to have the skills but not the experience... believe me.

I'm constantly learning about/experimenting with new languages/skills/technologies in my own time to broaden my skill set. But the fact that most employer's are not willing to take on developers with less experience makes me wonder "Whats the point?" I've had to resign myself to a development position in a small company with very little room for training or career advancement while waiting for my experience to increase while at the same time my motivation to stay in this industry is decreasing rapidly.

The way things are going I'll probably leave the industry before I've gained enough experience to be generally considering employable.

I'm a developer with 2 years commercial experience, but when interviewing for a new position recently I was able to use all of the projects I have worked on in my spare time over the years. This was enough to demonstrate what I'd taught myself and the company had no problem with my official 1 official years experience at the time.

I can completely understand a company's reluctance to hire graduate developers because they don't know enough to contribute quality work, but they do know enough to contribute something that works, but its laden with bugs & against best practices...

bobbbb

BostonB wrote: »

I think this demonstrates very well, why theres a lack of experienced people with the right skills. Few places are prepared to train people up, or take on inexperienced people. It can only have one result in the long run. Shortage of people, and people leaving the industry.

Trust me there is a massive massive difference in skills between someone with 5 years experience and someone with 2 years.

The problem is that people who have only a couple of years experience think that they are skilled. They just arent. Its a fact. Ask anyone whos been there done that has 5 or 6 years experience and is now looking back at how they were when they had only 2 years experience. They'll tell you how green they were and yet they never realized it.

Most companies are perfectly willing to take on graduates or people with only a few years under their belt. But the companies have to carry these people for a couple of years until they learn the required skills to work under their own steam and handle anything thats thrown at them, quickly and with the minimum of fuss. So when a company has to carry you, you are actually costing them money. They have to hold your hand and fix all the cock-ups you will do while you are learning. Some companies cant afford that.

I would certainly hire more graduates and inexperienced people if they recognized this fact instead of someone with a year or twos experience coming to an interview and bull****ting about how ahead of the curve they are as they did work experience for 6 months or built their granny a website last year so that counts as experience. If you have relevan experience your interviewer will be able to tell, dont worry.

BostonB

You're backtracking now. You made it very clear your only looking at experienced people and willing to pay higher salaries to get them. I'm just pointing out thats not unrelated to what you're complaining about. The lack of experienced, skilled people. Cause and effect. Same thing with using agencies and getting unsuitable people to interview. I'll bet thats not unrelated either.

I'm not being critical, bobbbb sometimes theres no choice. (well other than using agencies, no one needs to do that, its self defeating). Just pointing out the causality. Some companies simply don't have junior roles for example, or just need the top guys, and its worth paying for them.

While I'd agree in general about experience. Experience only goes so far. Some people have no common sense and are still doing daft things despite years of experience. Best practice is a nice term for doing things the most efficient and usual logical way. Good ideas and common sense. People with years of experience don't always do this. I've met a few brilliant graduates, but not many. What graduates and people with low experience generally lack, is business acumen, and pragmatism, practicality.

I think IT sector has already had a few recessions already, post Y2K, 9/11, post the Web explosion etc. I'd say its only starting to feel this one.

bobbbb

BostonB wrote: »

You're backtracking now. You made it very clear your only looking at experienced people and willing to pay higher salaries to get them. I'm just pointing out thats not unrelated to what you're complaining about. The lack of experienced, skilled people. Cause and effect. Same thing with using agencies and getting unsuitable people to interview. I'll bet thats not unrelated either.

I'm not being critical, bobbbb sometimes theres no choice. (well other than using agencies, no one needs to do that, its self defeating). Just pointing out the causality. Some companies simply don't have junior roles for example, or just need the top guys, and its worth paying for them.

While I'd agree in general about experience. Experience only goes so far. Some people have no common sense and are still doing daft things despite years of experience. Best practice is a nice term for doing things the most efficient and usual logical way. Good ideas and common sense. People with years of experience don't always do this. I've met a few brilliant graduates, but not many. What graduates and people with low experience generally lack, is business acumen, and pragmatism, practicality.

I think IT sector has already had a few recessions already, post Y2K, 9/11, post the Web explosion etc. I'd say its only starting to feel this one.

As far as I've seen there has been only one it recession. After the dot com bubble burst. And it lasted about 2 years.

I never said I don't take on grads. I said I will take them on if they are the right people and in the project we can carry them and invest in them. At the moment we can't do this on my current project.

An I don't really care what anyone says. Grads and limited experienced candidates have not hit a patch on any candidate with a few years under their belt.

Since when did this thread become an arguement anyway.

BostonB

Argument? I thought it was discussion. Mostly in agreement

I think if you are not getting the market rate for your skills and experience, you need to look into why that is.

irishguy

So what would people think a Java software engineer (Spring/J2EE/JSP/websphere) would get with 2 years java experience (Large scale high availability enterprise systems)+ 1 years PM/Implementation management experience, all in the financial sector would get?

Also would people think a masters is worth the time/effort? Specifically M.Sc. in Advanced Software Engineering in UCD

bobbbb

irishguy wrote: »

So what would people think a Java software engineer (Spring/J2EE/JSP/websphere) would get with 2 years java experience (Large scale high availability enterprise systems)+ 1 years PM/Implementation management experience, all in the financial sector would get?

Also would people think a masters is worth the time/effort? Specifically M.Sc. in Advanced Software Engineering in UCD

Id say if you are in a job, stay there for another couple of years. It will be tough for you with only a couple of years under your belt.

Masters really counts for nothing when looking for a job in IT. Might keep you busy though if you are finding it hard to get a job.

irishguy

I am in a job at the moment but I have been moved from a pure development role to a semi development / websphere deployment management /implementation management role. Which is good experience, but when your not developing regularly you start forgetting it. Just wondering what people think I should be getting? Wont be moving though as I have very good job security and I am buying a house soon too.

dazberry

Experience is all relative, I've 15 years experience in development and no matter how good the experience itself - it stands for nothing because the product names/tools don't match those in vogue. My heart's broken at this stage.

D.

the_syco

bobbbb wrote: »

I am a software development manager.

Ah, cool. Had to ask, as I've seen a few people giving nice figures, and then you find out that they're an agent trying to fill a spot. Esp when they ask for 5+ years on a technology that is just out (I remember reading a job spec looking for 5+ years exp in Vista in Februray 07...

Best of luck with the team.

AARRRGH

daigo75 wrote: »

In my career I covered many positions in IT, from DBA, DB Development, Web/Client-Server Development and System Administrator, but recently I focused on a DBA and DB Development role. I'm just about to study Business Intelligence and increase my knowledge of Oracle (I really hate this database :mad:).

That's your problem. You don't really have 10 years experience; you have 2 years of this, 2 years of that, 2 years of something else, etc.

If you had of stuck with the one skillset, you'd be on a lot more than 50 - 60k now.

I speak from experience. I've gone from developer to accountant to automation engineer. But I wouldn't take it back, as I've had an interesting career so far.

daigo75

AARRRGH wrote: »

That's your problem. You don't really have 10 years experience; you have 2 years of this, 2 years of that, 2 years of something else, etc.

If you had of stuck with the one skillset, you'd be on a lot more than 50 - 60k now.

I speak from experience. I've gone from developer to accountant to automation engineer. But I wouldn't take it back, as I've had an interesting career so far.

I believe it could seem like that, but it's not, really. I used to work VERY long hours and covered multiple roles at the very same time. It was not infrequent to work double shifts to be able to do all, but, as a "side effect", I could increase my knowledge very quickly.

Learning a lot of stuff was also a choice, I never liked the idea of knowing "one and only one thing" (for instance, I had a colleague in the past who knew one and only one development tool, not a single clue about anything else, and I think this is a terrible limitation).

It's true that I can't sell myself as a "super-guru" of a specific technology, but, at the same time, I can easily move from one role to the other.

ntlbell

daigo75 wrote: »

It's true that I can't sell myself as a "super-guru" of a specific technology, but, at the same time, I can easily move from one role to the other.

the problem is you can't earn the mega bucks

it will go from one mediocre role to the next.

There's no harm in having a specialty where you can earn big bucks while keeping your skill set more broad on the side.

e.g. You if you specialise in IT security and are a CISSP SCP etc.

You can still keep your MCSE/CCNA/CCNP/CCIE/etc etc up to date every few years so should you need to switch into a generalist again you're ready to do so.

c4sea

Hi guys,

this is interesting thread . becuase i was also wondering myself .
I have been in development for more than 8 years. i work in development ,
manager just give me requirement verbally or by project document. from then i do everything myself, no body help in the company and no training provided by company.
Guys what kind of salary should i expect in my situation.
i used java, jsp, struts, tomcat, html, javascript , databases any etc. only on windows.

BostonB

As a jack o trades myself, I'd have to agree that if you specialise you'll be able to command better salaries and roles. Same in most things in life.

daigo75

ntlBell and BostonB, I agree as well. At the moment I'm in software development, but my boss moved me to a team leader position quite quickly because he noticed that I could better use my knowledge that way instead of simply coding (also, I don't really like coding). The reason why I took a development job was that I'm quite good at that (I liked it in the past) and they were paying much more than in my country (almost 3 times more).

However, I started focusing on databases some years ago, and now I'm specializing on them. I had a big boost in job offer when I got a certification (which, at the same time, confirmed my idea that certification don't mean a lot, since I could obtain it by just using what I already knew for ages). Business Intelligence will be the next step, but I will still "keep an eye" on the rest, as it's knowledge I don't want to lose. SQL Server now, Oracle next.

Maybe I won't get rich, but at least I will work on something I like.

bobbbb

the_syco wrote: »

Ah, cool. Had to ask, as I've seen a few people giving nice figures, and then you find out that they're an agent trying to fill a spot. Esp when they ask for 5+ years on a technology that is just out (I remember reading a job spec looking for 5+ years exp in Vista in Februray 07...

Best of luck with the team.

What they mean in that case is that you have 5+ years experience under your belt, but are now in Vista / .Net or whatever they are asking for.

bobbbb

For those looking to see what they are worth at present, all i can say is, the only way to find out is to send your CV off to a few agencies. Ask for significantly more than you are on now for a start and dont settle for less - otherwise whats the point in moving.
Then if the right job comes up for the right money you can take it, if it attracts you. If not you're still where you are now. Nothing to lose.

Dont be afraid to go to the UK or Europe either. Only short flights away. Obviously there are those of us with families who cant travel, but if you dont, nothing to stop you.

The problem most employees have in any company is that the longer they stay there the more happy in their nappy they get. Your employer knows this only too well. Next thing the new employee on the team is on more money than you but with less experience. And the team just gets unmanageable because people arent happy.

I know, ive been there myself.

We have a HR dept here making sure people arent getting paid what they are worth. Thats just sad. I have to fight with them to get people paid what i feel they deserve. Otherwise i'll just lose them at a time when i need them most.

You have to make your breaks yourself. Dip your toe in the water and see how warm it is.

kayos

bobbbb wrote: »

What they mean in that case is that you have 5+ years experience under your belt, but are now in Vista / .Net or whatever they are asking for.

In a lot of cases its not this. Saying 5year exp in .NET means 5years exp in .net and not 5 years in cobol and you just picked up a .net book.

I've seen those ad's myself over the years the best being 5years in .NET when .NET was just released. The agent was very insistent that it was 5years in .NET now the only question is was it the agent or the employer who got that one wrong. Honestly they would have to hire the guys who wrote the bloody platform and they would be trying to get them at junior dev money.

arctictree

irishguy wrote: »

So what would people think a Java software engineer (Spring/J2EE/JSP/websphere) would get with 2 years java experience (Large scale high availability enterprise systems)+ 1 years PM/Implementation management experience, all in the financial sector would get?

Also would people think a masters is worth the time/effort? Specifically M.Sc. in Advanced Software Engineering in UCD

Just an observation here. I have worked as an IT contractor on and off for the last 15 years in software dev houses and financial institutions.

In general the quality of a software developer that has been trained in a software dev company seems to be much higher than in an organization where IT is secondary to their core business.

I worked for a while in a bank where I was shocked at the low competence of the IT staff. Doing major java systems dev with just notepad as the editor and no source control or team working tools. This seemed to come from the fact that everyone was in grades and no account was taken for specialities. So you ended up them only being able to hire developers for 25 to 30K.

On the other hand, I worked for a different bank who recognized the differing pay scales needed in IT and their setup was excellent.

So my main point here is that, it is not really that important how many years you have been working but rather what you have been doing in those years and under what kind of supervision etc

irishguy

arctictree wrote: »

Just an observation here. I have worked as an IT contractor on and off for the last 15 years in software dev houses and financial institutions.

In general the quality of a software developer that has been trained in a software dev company seems to be much higher than in an organization where IT is secondary to their core business.

I worked for a while in a bank where I was shocked at the low competence of the IT staff. Doing major java systems dev with just notepad as the editor and no source control or team working tools. This seemed to come from the fact that everyone was in grades and no account was taken for specialities. So you ended up them only being able to hire developers for 25 to 30K.

On the other hand, I worked for a different bank who recognized the differing pay scales needed in IT and their setup was excellent.

So my main point here is that, it is not really that important how many years you have been working but rather what you have been doing in those years and under what kind of supervision etc

Not sure what bank that was but we use regular industry standard tools/technologies/approaches. The IT department is highly skilled and the people who I worked with really know what they are doing, but this is a big bank with a very large IT department (C.1000+). Of course we have to learn other skills which you wouldnt in a pure IT organisation and are not programming the entire time. You do get a good rounded experience of IT and business knowledge working in a non technology company

dazberry

arctictree wrote: »

In general the quality of a software developer that has been trained in a software dev company seems to be much higher than in an organization where IT is secondary to their core business.

I worked for a while in a bank where I was shocked at the low competence of the IT staff.

I write software in a bank, and yes its a horror. To quote Rutger Hauer - I have seen things you people wouldn't believe.

Our problem is not the quality of the development staff as we all "cut our cloth" outside the bank, although we have had serious issues with contractors in the past. The issue is how the software development process is supported and managed.

As a side effect of delivering a system or an enhancement - our management can be seen to be innovative, useful and supporting the business. But really they just whore for credit and recognition. And the more they get drunk on this the more they want, the more they cut corners to get things done more quickly. I mean why write a proper specification or do a proper level of analysis before you write a system when you can do it while you're writing the system, save yourself loads of time there :rolleyes:... Always some excuse too, generally involves blaming the parent company.

This has been getting progressively worse over the last number of years, to the point where as developers we're completely overloaded, its like being in the last few days prior to a delivery all the time. So what do you do when the developers are being worked to the bone - hire more PMs, we now have 1 PM to every developer.

Ultimately I think alot of the issues that arise are management created so they can be seen to solve them. Either way it looks like within the next year they'll find themselves without any development staff whatsoever. I'm relishing the day

D.

c4sea

Hi Guys,

I am wondering companies names which pays above 55 k for sr. java developer in permanent role in dublin only. how is market there for this role?

Cheers,

thebaldsoprano

dazberry wrote: »

we now have 1 PM to every developer.

Jaysus!! That's unreal. They're taking a different approach where I work and getting us developers to do PM work...

c4sea

qwytre wrote: »

With your experience, if its for a straight forward developer role then 55-60k give or take.

60-65k if you are a team lead.

70-80k as architect, maybe more.

I like to make a list of IT companies that pays that much salary.
guys writedown if you know anybody.

bobbbb

c4sea wrote: »

I like to make a list of IT companies that pays that much salary.
guys writedown if you know anybody.

You're going to find it hard to get people to tell you what company we all work for here.

c4sea

bobbbb wrote: »

You're going to find it hard to get people to tell you what company we all work for here.

thanks for reply. I understand reservation about that. but do not need to write your own. if you know for sure the companies who pay that money. that would be help full .