Am I eligible to teach History?

boredzeee

Hey, I'm wondering if perhaps some people could help me out with a query.

I have a BA (Hons) in Politics and am wondering whether I would be eligible for a PGDE/HDip- unfortunately the Teaching Council have informed me that for the privilege of them telling me whether my degree subjects would make me eligible I have to pay them 200Euro. F*ck that.

So, I'm wondering if people could give their opinions as to whether they think my degree is eligible.

I'm thinking History/CSPE/Economic History (mainly History) etc.

I've studied (among others);

Politics
Sociology
American Politics
Irish Politics
East European Politics
West European Politics
International Relations
Political Institutions
Research methods etc.....

Apparently for History (my main hope) you have to have a three year degree that included History as 30% of the degree. My argument would be that Politics=History, and especially due to the fact that Leaving Cert History is by and large Political History from the Mid-19th Century I am very well placed to teach these..............

Anyhoo- anyone got any ideas/advice/criticism? I really don't wanna pay 200 yips just to be told that I'm not eligible.

Has anyone been in a similar position?

Much thanks.

oliviah

To teach a subject you need to have studied the subject. Politics is not equal to history. Even if someone here told you your degree would be suitable you'd still have to get the teaching council to look at it and pay them money. I know someone in the same situation as you who was told their degree wasn't any good. But they look at every case differently.

There are also very few jobs in history. There are many qualified history teachers who don't have jobs.

Most schools let anyone teach cspe and history (jc), as they are considered "read out of the book subjects" by many principals.

There is talk of a specific politics subject being introduced at leaving cert but with the education cutbacks who knows what will happen.

If it's something you really want, you will have to get your degree checked out, there's no way around this. Just be aware that your jobs prospects will not be good.

boredzeee

Thanks very much, I appreciate your reply oliviah- despite disagreeing with some of what you said.


I'm going to stick by with what I said that Politics and History are broadly similar and should be treated is such in this situation (i.e. my situation!). We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Example;
My Russian and East European politics course could just have easily have been called 'Russian History 1919-1989' or some such variant. Likewise, my Irish politics course could be named 'Irish Political History from 1937', and West European Politics as 'the History of the EU'- what I'm trying to say is that the substantive content of each politics course is largely historical.

I'd go so far as to say that my Politics degree would prepare me better for teaching the Leaving Cert syllabus than my mate who does History and concentrates on Ancient Greece and Egypt.............

.......But obviously I should be telling this to the Teaching Council instead!

I agree with everything else you say and I guessed that there would be a fair few History teachers unemployed....and the CSPE notion was a bit pie in the sky!

The reason I posted on here was for someone to give me an indication of whether I have a chance...perhaps someone know a politics grad on the HDip?? To be honest I think the fact I have to pay 200Euro (bout two and half day's wages) to find out something that surely would take no more than 30mins is just disgraceful. Especially when it is to do with further education.......knowledge economy my arse.

Thanks for your post again oliviah- bring on Politics for the Leaving Cert- it's probably my best bet!

delta_bravo

boredzeee wrote: »

I'm going to stick by with what I said that Politics and History are broadly similar and should be treated is such in this situation (i.e. my situation!). We'll just have to agree to disagree.


I'd go so far as to say that my Politics degree would prepare me better for teaching the Leaving Cert syllabus than my mate who does History and concentrates on Ancient Greece and Egypt.............

.......But obviously I should be telling this to the Teaching Council instead!

You would need to study Classics in college to cover Ancient Greece or Ancient Egypt so your argument doesnt really hold water there as History in a B.A. would rarely cover anything before the fall of Rome.

You may have done modules that cover the history of a political aspect but unless they were run by the Department of History in the University you couldnt claim that they were history modules.

I dont know how the Council would respond to your argument but the general rule is you must have studied the subject for 30% of your degree

boredzeee

delta_bravo wrote: »

You would need to study Classics in college to cover Ancient Greece or Ancient Egypt so your argument doesnt really hold water there as History in a B.A. would rarely cover anything before the fall of Rome.

You may have done modules that cover the history of a political aspect but unless they were run by the Department of History in the University you couldnt claim that they were history modules.

Sorry. My mistake. It wasn't Ancient Greece/Egypt it was early post Roman Empire period he was talking bout! Point still holds ater if you ask me though.....

OK. Now the second part is where I disagree with you. Are you saying that just because they're not run by the History Dept they shouldn't be counted? Regardless of whether they would afford me the requisite knowledge and skills that would be needed to teach History? That's where I just think it get's silly....

I most definitely can see that the Teaching Council would have to evaluate the content of the courses I took and then adjudge as to whether I'm suitably qualified- and if they said no, then fine....I'd accept it....even if I as a bit bitter!

BUT...

In order to clarify what the situation is I have to pay 200+Euro....I'm sorry, but no administration charge should be near that expensive...I'm providing them with all the necessary documents anyway..


I just find the whole rigidity and opacity of the system (and then the brazen attitude of asking for 200Euro to be clearer on the issue) very annoying.


Here's a hypothetical situation;

Dick* is an absolute messer at school. He's lazy, arrogant, a smart arse and rarely does his homework. However, due to his parents spending loadsa dosh on grinds he comes out with 300 points (despite getting a C3 in pass History) and gets into his local University's Arts course.
While there he continues to be a lazy good for nothing so and so. He does History as it has the least number of lecture hours per week. Dick dosses through college and comes out ith a 3rd in his 3 year course. His Ma and Da have given him money to do whatever Postgrad course he wants.......he decides to opt for secondary school teaching as he hears theres a fair few hot birds on the course and sure who wouldn't want 2 months summer holiers.

*Dick is not a fictional character

Dick is eligible to take the HDip as he would be qualified to teach History.


Jane* is one of those all round great people. The kind of person who are so intelligent, friendly, kind, thoughtful and talented that you just want to hit them! Jane got 600 points in her leaving and decided to study Politics.
A year into the course she finds herself really interested in the political history of Europe, Ireland and America (she also loved to read about earlier history in her spare time). Jane works really hard- yet still remains the championship winning captain of the Ladies football team- and achieves a double first in her four year BA Politics. Her thesis on the political consequences of the Irish Civil War wins a national award and she is offered a Scholarship for an MA in Modern Irish History. Once again, she comes out with a distinction.
Throughtout her MA Jane has worked as a TA for undergrads....she loved the experience and now wants to become a secondary school History teacher. She checks the Teaching Council site. Hmmm...she doesn't seem to have the necessary requirements as stipulated . How and ever she decides that possibly her MA in History and BA in Politics mite be excepted in lieu of a 3 year degree in History.

She decides to seek clarification on the issue but in order for this to be done she learns she has to pay the Teaching Council 200 Euro. Surely that is a bit excessive she thinks! I wonder what people on the internet will think?!

*Jane is a fictional character

sitstill

boredzeee wrote: »

Dick dosses through college and comes out ith a 3rd in his 3 year course. His Ma and Da have given him money to do whatever Postgrad course he wants.......he decides to opt for secondary school teaching as he hears theres a fair few hot birds on the course and sure who wouldn't want 2 months summer holiers.

Dick wouldn't get a place on the HDip if he only got a 3rd in his degree - he would need at least a high 2.1.

rainbowtrout

boredzeee wrote: »

Thanks very much, I appreciate your reply oliviah- despite disagreeing with some of what you said.


I'm going to stick by with what I said that Politics and History are broadly similar and should be treated is such in this situation (i.e. my situation!). We'll just have to agree to disagree.

Example;
My Russian and East European politics course could just have easily have been called 'Russian History 1919-1989' or some such variant. Likewise, my Irish politics course could be named 'Irish Political History from 1937', and West European Politics as 'the History of the EU'- what I'm trying to say is that the substantive content of each politics course is largely historical.

I'd go so far as to say that my Politics degree would prepare me better for teaching the Leaving Cert syllabus than my mate who does History and concentrates on Ancient Greece and Egypt.............

.......But obviously I should be telling this to the Teaching Council instead!

I agree with everything else you say and I guessed that there would be a fair few History teachers unemployed....and the CSPE notion was a bit pie in the sky!

The reason I posted on here was for someone to give me an indication of whether I have a chance...perhaps someone know a politics grad on the HDip?? To be honest I think the fact I have to pay 200Euro (bout two and half day's wages) to find out something that surely would take no more than 30mins is just disgraceful. Especially when it is to do with further education.......knowledge economy my arse.

Thanks for your post again oliviah- bring on Politics for the Leaving Cert- it's probably my best bet!

boredzeee, i don't know if you're really taking on the advice that's being given here. Politics and History are not the same for the purposes of teaching. I'm no expert but my initial thought is that politics is just about politics, history while it involves politics also involves culture and society. Just off the top of my head some of the topics i remember from primary school and junior cert, vikings, celts, roman and greek civilisatons, renaissance, reformation, irish, french and american revolutions, world war 1 and 2. irish free state, plantations etc etc. There's lots in there that has little to do with politics. nobody here will be able to tell you if your degree is suitable. The TC charge €200 and there is nothing you can do about it if your degree is not on their list of recognised degrees.

if you're not willing to pay €200 are you really that serious about teaching?
To be fair, i'm sure it'll take them more than 30 mins to check your degree, giving them a list of modules on a transcript isn't enough, they have to check the content of those modules..... it seems like peanuts in comparison to what you would pay to do the PGDE.

Also I think you need to do a little more research, your 'mate who does Ancient Greece and Egypt' is far better placed to teach history. There are two syllabi for LC (or there were, history teachers feel free to correct me), one modern and one ancient. The ancient history syllabus isn't as commonly taught, but it exists, the school I work in used to teach it until a couple of years ago.

Also the subject Economic History doesn't exist anymore, it died a death around 2005.


To be honest OP, you just seem a little bitter about friends that have better subjects in their degree for teaching regardless of what level of work they put in in college and that your degree is possible ineligible.

Powerhouse

boredzeee wrote: »

Hey, I'm wondering if perhaps some people could help me out with a query.

I have a BA (Hons) in Politics and am wondering whether I would be eligible for a PGDE/HDip- unfortunately the Teaching Council have informed me that for the privilege of them telling me whether my degree subjects would make me eligible I have to pay them 200Euro. F*ck that.

So, I'm wondering if people could give their opinions as to whether they think my degree is eligible.

I'm thinking History/CSPE/Economic History (mainly History) etc.

I've studied (among others);

Politics
Sociology
American Politics
Irish Politics
East European Politics
West European Politics
International Relations
Political Institutions
Research methods etc.....

Apparently for History (my main hope) you have to have a three year degree that included History as 30% of the degree. My argument would be that Politics=History, and especially due to the fact that Leaving Cert History is by and large Political History from the Mid-19th Century I am very well placed to teach these..............

Anyhoo- anyone got any ideas/advice/criticism? I really don't wanna pay 200 yips just to be told that I'm not eligible.

Has anyone been in a similar position?

Much thanks.

As for "f*ck that" - I would have to recommend paying the €200 to the teaching council rather than relying on opinions offered on the internet, much as it might gall you.

What I don't get is your idea that Politics=History. While, it is true to say that much of history until relatively recently has been unhealthily concerned with what politicians have done or not done, this has changed significantly as social history is becoming more significant these days. But my understanding of politics as an academic subject (and I have done just one politics module in a Masters' course) is that it deals with political systems and ideologies how they have developed, and what their effects are.

There are occasional crossovers between politics and history in that sense but it is a might leap to consider them to be one and the same. I am not sure, for example, to what depth a Politics degree course would study, say, the social effects of the French Revolution, the development of the United Irishmen movement in the 1790s, the Plantations, Medieval discovery in Europe or such topics.

But it does seem odd that universities would allow people to do an Omnibus Arts degree taking History and Politics if they are in fact the same subject.

But the problem for the teaching council is that it has to draw the line somewhere. I studied History for two years of an Arts degree but could not register as a History teacher as it is still 5% short of the 30% threshold, and I just have to deal with that.

So if you are unwilling to part with €200 to be told you are ineligible, I would say it is fair to assume that you are not.

Fergus08

I think the starting point, as several respondents have stated and reiterated, is to have your degree reviewed by the Teaching Council. There's no way around it. Anything else is just speculation and hypothesis - once they've had a look at it you'll get the definitive answer.

I did history as part of my undergrad and I tried and failed to get into the TCD PGDE, before really giving up on a teaching career. But I think if you are determined to teach it may be worthwhile doing some teaching practice first as a substitute. You'll get to see what teaching is all about at the frontline and whether it really is for you.

While you're doing that you could try to update you degree by taking history modules with the Open University or with Oscail. Or, go the whole hog and re-register with one of the universities for an evening degree in history - offhand, I think that's possible with UCD, NUIM & NUIG. Again, that's if you're really determined to go into teaching and are prepared to spend several years getting your degree issue sorted out. That is, of course, presuming that the Teaching Council, as I think is likely, do not regard your politics degree as sufficient to teach history. I know both the OU and Oscail are reasonably well regarded with the OU having two degrees recognised by the Teaching Council (maths and chemistry). But Oscail may be a better bet given that they cover Irish history, which the OU don't, as far as I'm aware.

If you did that, got some teaching practice you should be in good stead for the PGDE.

Best of luck.

TheDriver

Again, if you are serious and want to go ahead, then go to the teaching council.
However, history teaching at moment, hope you don't expect too much job opportunities?

Titania

It seems you have a bit of a chip on your shoulder. What people are (helpfully) trying to point out to you is that a politics degree is not a history degree. You may have studied the history of politics, and politics past and present, but there is a reason universities have these subjects as two separate degrees. It's more than just the subject matter and the modules you've studied - it's also about how you studied them. The discipline of studying history, and the broad spectrum of history you would have covered would equip you better as a teacher of history as your major subject.

If, hypothetically, you had studied French and Politics, it would be less of an issue if you were applying to teach History as your second subject (your minor).

I studied English in college, and I get annoyed all the time when I come across people claiming to be able to teach English, when they never studied English (lit or lang) in university. I imagine History students would feel similarly peeved at some of the assumptions you've made.

pathway33

sitstill wrote: »

Dick wouldn't get a place on the HDip if he only got a 3rd in his degree - he would need at least a high 2.1.

Not true. Dick could easily get into the PGDE (in the NUI colleges, not Trinity) with a third (and some other things).


Lets say he got the worst 3rd. 40% in his honours degree. That's 32 points. He then does a Post-graduate diploma (there are many you can get into with a 3rd) for which he gets another 3 or 4 points, not sure, let's say 3. He then does a masters (because he did well in his post-grad dip) for which he gets 6 points. He now has a minimum of 41 points. All he needs to do now is get some hours teaching voluntarily, maybe 150 hours, and he has the same number of points as a high 2.1.


I believe a high 2.1 equals 43 points which is what Dick has now. Hey ho Dick is in the PGDE and the children of Ireland can rejoice in the knowledge that fun-time Dick will be teaching them for maybe 5 years after scraping through college in his chosen subject. See, it doesn't matter if the post-graduate diploma and the masters have absolutely nothing to do with the subject in the undergraduate degree.


P.S I know some colleges count a 3rd in an honours degree as a pass degree for which you only get 26 points but not all colleges do this. Even if this was the case for Dick he can get up to 8 points for teaching hours so he would still get in. The moral of the story is even with 40% in a PASS degree you can still do the PGDE in an NUI College.

Powerhouse

pathway33 wrote: »

P.S I know some colleges count a 3rd in an honours degree as a pass degree for which you only get 26 points but not all colleges do this.

I think you might be confusing grades with type of degrees. Primary degree courses can be categorised in two ways (and the PAC HDip literature does this) - those for which honours are available and those for which honours are not available. One does not metamorphose into the other simply because you get a certain mark.

If you get 42% in an honours degree course it is a pass grade in an honours degree course. It does not make it a "Pass" degree. Nor does it matter in any way shape or form for PAC HDip purposes whether a college calls 47% a third honours or a pass grade - the degree course is either an honours course or a pass course.

In fact there is an argument for using the 'third honours' name for anything that is over 40% to avoid the confusion that is out there regarding the status of degree courses. The PAC looks at the mark anyway, and what the grade is called doesn't matter.

pathway33

Powerhouse wrote: »

I think you might be confusing grades with type of degrees.

I think you might be right. Therfore Dick would get 32 points for his 40% in his honours degree (level 8) and the postgrad, masters and 150 teaching hours would get him into any NUI PGDE

pathway33

Powerhouse wrote: »

I studied History for two years of an Arts degree but could not register as a History teacher as it is still 5% short of the 30% threshold, and I just have to deal with that.
.

Can you not just study the extra 5% as an occasional student. I know people who have done just 10 or 15 credits to satisfy the teaching council requirement of the 30% threshold and now they are registered

clartharlear

It doesn't matter so much to the teaching council whether they register you in one, two or three subjects, as long as there is one that they do register you in.
Schools will then see that you are a registered teacher, and then your 25% of your degree, methodologies studied and experience teaching will matter far more to the people who can employ you.

Boredzeee sounds like he's too proud of what he did get in his previous studies to put the work into becoming more suitable as a teacher, like poor Dick did.

Powerhouse

pathway33 wrote: »

Can you not just study the extra 5% as an occasional student. I know people who have done just 10 or 15 credits to satisfy the teaching council requirement of the 30% threshold and now they are registered

I hadn't thought about the occasional student option before to be honest, but it certainly is an option. Thanks for that.

pathway33

Powerhouse wrote: »

I hadn't thought about the occasional student option before to be honest, but it certainly is an option. Thanks for that.

make sure you get the teaching council to confirm in writing BEFOREHAND the area you need to get the credits in and whether it needs to be at level 2 or 3

pathway33

clartharlear wrote: »

It doesn't matter so much to the teaching council whether they register you in one, two or three subjects, as long as there is one that they do register you in.

Does that mean that if I am registered to teach maths but I have missed the 30% threshold for say biology, but the school considers me competent enough to teach biology then I can despite being unregistered for biology because I didn't complete enough credits in college?

clartharlear

Pretty much. Of course you have to convince the school still.
I was at a talk from the TC last week and the secretary was quite clear that registration and employment are *not the same*.