Catholic church excommunicates doctors who performed abortion on 9 yr old rape victim

achtungbarry

The mother of the girl has also been excommunicated.

Journalist on Pat Kenny said bishops said rapist would not be excommunicated as abortion was graver crime.

Brazil's president attacks Vatican for condemning nine-year-old rape victim's abortion
Brazil's president has criticised the Roman Catholic Church for excommunicating doctors who performed an abortion on a nine-year-old girl who was raped by her stepfather and was expecting twins.

The girl's mother was also excommunicated by Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, the Archbishop of Recife, the north-eastern city where the family lives. He said that all those involved had "broken God's law".

But the president, Luiz Inacio "Lula" da Silva, condemned the excommunication and praised the doctors for their decision to perform the abortion on the girl, who was 15 weeks pregnant. "As a Christian and a Catholic, I deeply regret that a bishop has had such conservative behaviour," he said. "In this case, medicine is more right than the Church."

Archbishop Sobrinho defended his action. Asked why he did not excommunicate the 23-year-old stepfather, he said: "He committed an extremely serious crime. But that crime, according to canon law, is not punished with automatic excommunication.

"Abortion is even more serious. The Church and the whole world condemn the Holocaust that killed six million Jews. What is happening [with abortion] is a silent Holocaust."

The Archbishop was supported by the Vatican. Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, head of the Congregation for Bishops, told an Italian newspaper abortion was a sin and that the unborn twins were innocent.

Abortion is illegal in Brazil, the world's most populous Catholic country, except in cases of rape or when the mother's life is in danger, both of which applied in this case.

Doctors believed that the nine-year-old, who weighed 5st 10lb, was too small to have twins and that going ahead with the birth would have put her life in danger.

When the abortion was reported in local newspapers, the Church asked a judge to halt the process. He refused so it excommunicated those involved.

Doctors terminate an estimated one million pregnancies in Brazil each year. The poor take home-made drug concoctions or are forced into clandestine clinics, while the better off are treated by qualified doctors known to anyone with money.

That secrecy has a price. More than 200,000 women are treated in public hospitals for complications arising from illegal abortions each year, according to health ministry figures.

One in seven Brazilian women between the age of 15 and 19 is a mother and the average at which women have their first child has fallen to 21 years, from 22.4 years in 1996, according to a government-funded study.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/southamerica/brazil/4968239/Brazils-president-attacks-Vatican-for-condemning-nine-year-old-rape-victims-abortion.html

The girl was 9, I mean 9 years old, a small child who is a rape victim yet these people wanted this poor girl to go through aganony to satisfy their beliefs. Nobody likes the idea of abortion but if ever a case was justified, this was it.

I can't get over the callousness of the bishops.

Dave!

Oh dear... The CC needs a new PR person

They should hire Max Clifford tbh

Is the relevance of this thread being in the atheism forum that it's another reason to be an atheist ?
I'd like to think that there are reasons to be an atheist other than hatrid of the catholic church.

Surely this is a thread for humanities?

For the record,I'm a catholic and think this decision is stupid but means nothing.
If it makes the pope happy-so be it.
Everybody deserves to be happy.

ShooterSF

Lucky doctors I'd say, some might call it Karma even. I'd love to be excommunicated.

Dades

Deleted User wrote: »

Surely this is a thread for humanities?

I'm actually in agreement with you there.

Moved from A&A to Humanities for a broader audience.

The Corinthian

achtungbarry wrote: »

The girl was 9, I mean 9 years old, a small child who is a rape victim yet these people wanted this poor girl to go through aganony to satisfy their beliefs. Nobody likes the idea of abortion but if ever a case was justified, this was it.

Well, from the perspectives and beliefs of Roman Catholicism, the foetus inside that girl was a human being, and abortion would have been an equally if not worse crime as it would be murdering that human being/child.

Of course, you may argue that they are attempting to force her to suffer for their beliefs, but if you do that you are essentially forcing your beliefs on what others believe to be a human being.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

F.A.

Just two things to note:

The girl was pregnant with twins. She is about 1.30 m tall, weighs 36 kg. Her hips have not even started to develop into those of a woman. Her womb was too small to carry one child, let alone two. The doctors who examined her said that the pregnancy was a huge risk to the girl's life.

Secondly, the Catholic Church could not excommunicate the stepfather - he is not Catholic.

allabouteve

ShooterSF wrote: »

Lucky doctors I'd say, some might call it Karma even. I'd love to be excommunicated.

You can seek to have your membership of the CC formally terminated, and you are then excommunicated.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Of course, you may argue that they are attempting to force her to suffer for their beliefs, but if you do that you are essentially forcing your beliefs on what others believe to be a human being.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

This is true. I'm an athiest and their beliefs are alien to me, but if these are the rules they live by, then them's the rules.

F.A. wrote: »

Just two things to note:

The girl was pregnant with twins. She is about 1.30 m tall, weighs 36 kg. Her hips have not even started to develop into those of a woman. Her womb was too small to carry one child, let alone two. The doctors who examined her said that the pregnancy was a huge risk to the girl's life.

As an adult I don't think I would consider abortion for myself under any circumstances I can think of. But much as I hate the concept, sometimes the life that needs most protecting, is the life already being lived independently.

The girl should have had the risk to her life removed, as unsavoury as the consequences are for the unborn, in these circumstances.

getz

F.A. wrote: »

Just two things to note:

The girl was pregnant with twins. She is about 1.30 m tall, weighs 36 kg. Her hips have not even started to develop into those of a woman. Her womb was too small to carry one child, let alone two. The doctors who examined her said that the pregnancy was a huge risk to the girl's life.

Secondly, the Catholic Church could not excommunicate the stepfather - he is not Catholic.

if i say what i would like to say about the church i would be banned

The Corinthian

F.A. wrote: »

The girl was pregnant with twins. She is about 1.30 m tall, weighs 36 kg. Her hips have not even started to develop into those of a woman. Her womb was too small to carry one child, let alone two. The doctors who examined her said that the pregnancy was a huge risk to the girl's life.

My understanding of the Roman Catholic Church's position on abortion is that it is permissible in cases where pregnancy going to term will result in the mother's death.

Even if not, it would be difficult to logically fault such a position based upon two assumptions; the foetus is a human being and all human beings have equal rights. In such a case, unless you can say that both would die, it still remains immoral to sacrifice one human being for another.

Of course, if you don't hold to either of the above premises then it certainly is a barbaric situation. Depends upon your point of view and if you are willing to impose it on other (whom you may not believe are others).

Additionally, it is possible that other doctors disagreed with the diagnosis or had offered an alternative solution (e.g. early induction into an incubator).

The whole issue reminds me of many atheists. I certainly do not believe in religion (the whole Jesus thing really is terribly silly to me) and on balance, while it would be nice to keep to a Deist outlook, I would doubt even this. However, I do find it very amusing the salvitic fervour of some atheists, when trying to convert people to atheism, how in effect they are just as religious in their views as the religious.

Ickle Magoo

The sacrifice of a nine year old girl who is only pregnant in the first place due to years of abuse & rape from her stepfather to try and advertise how serious they are about their anti-abortion tenants, speak volumes really. It's just sickening. Has the poor girl not suffered enough without making an example of her & all those who tried to help save her life. :mad:

Christian? Seriously, it just beggars belief what passes for a Christian act these days. I can't believe any benevolent God would appreciate such actions taken in his name.

The Corinthian

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

The sacrifice of a nine year old girl who is only pregnant in the first place due to years of abuse & rape from her stepfather to try and advertise how serious they are about their anti-abortion tenants, speak volumes really. It's just sickening. Has the poor girl not suffered enough without making an example of her & all those who tried to help save her life. :mad:

An observation; does her age (other than for medical reasons) really matter? If she was 19 or 29 and subjected to similar abuse would people feel quite as emotional about it?

It just strikes me as similar to how people react when they hear about cruelty to cute fluffy animals, versus non-cute fluffy animals.

Bah, I'm just too cynical...

johnnyskeleton

Dades wrote: »

I'm actually in agreement with you there.

Moved from A&A to Humanities for a broader audience.

Proof, if ever such was needed, that humanities is seen as a dumping ground for all the other fora.

If you want a broader audience, that's what AH is for (although they say it's not).

As regards OP, it's a tautology. If she was a catholic, she woudn't get an abortion. But seeing as she is not, she got an abortion. The catholic church said fine, you're not a catholic. She agrees. What's the problem?

Ickle Magoo

The Corinthian wrote: »

An observation; does her age (other than for medical reasons) really matter? If she was 19 or 29 and subjected to similar abuse would people feel quite as emotional about it?

It just strikes me as similar to how people react when they hear about cruelty to cute fluffy animals, versus non-cute fluffy animals.

Bah, I'm just too cynical...

That's a truly awful way of looking at this situation, seriously, I don't think cynical even covers it.

WTF? Fluffy animals?! You think people don't get angry at rapists in general, just the child rapists? That we felt less sympathy for Elisabeth Fristzl or disgust towards her father because she'd outgrown the cute stage? Seriously now? I'm completely lost for words. :mad:

Her age just makes it that much more tragic - not any more of a crime or any more abhorrent than any other rape or abuse regardless of age or aesthetics. She's a little girl who should have been playing with her dolls & worrying about no more than what style to put her hair in. Not being abused & raped by her step-father. Not having an abortion - and certainly not having the issues she will have to deal with for the rest of her life being deliberately thrust into the media spotlight as the Catholic Church makes public declarations of excommunication. She probably doesn't even fully comprehend what has gone on or what is going on now, it's just awful.

Nevyn

Her age and phyical underdevelopment despite being able to get pregnant means that there was a great risk to her health and life if the twin pregnancy was allowed to continue.

Ickle Magoo

F.A. wrote: »

Just two things to note:

The girl was pregnant with twins. She is about 1.30 m tall, weighs 36 kg. Her hips have not even started to develop into those of a woman. Her womb was too small to carry one child, let alone two. The doctors who examined her said that the pregnancy was a huge risk to the girl's life.

Secondly, the Catholic Church could not excommunicate the stepfather - he is not Catholic.

Agree completely with your first point.

Not sure about your second point - according to several papers Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re had other reasons for not excommunicating the father...

He also said the accused stepfather would not be expelled from the church. Although the man allegedly committed "a heinous crime ... the abortion -- the elimination of an innocent life -- was more serious"

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,25158911-663,00.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/03/11/brazil.rape.abortion/index.html

Dades

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Proof, if ever such was needed, that humanities is seen as a dumping ground for all the other fora.

Why does this move bother you so? It's not a busy forum.
When is the last time you actually started a thread in Humanities?

K4t

The Catholic Chruch never fails to surprise. Does it still see itself as a credible institution? :rolleyes:

The Corinthian

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

WTF? Fluffy animals?! You think people don't get angry at rapists in general, just the child rapists? That we felt less sympathy for Elisabeth Fristzl or disgust towards her father because she'd outgrown the cute stage? Seriously now? I'm completely lost for words. :mad:

No people don't really react to rapists in general. Certainly we all think it's bad and terrible and these people should be locked up, etc, but we're not moved to start threads on the Internet about it, only about those cases that press the correct emotional buttons.

Her age just makes it that much more tragic - not any more of a crime or any more abhorrent than any other rape or abuse regardless of age or aesthetics.

I don't deny that for a second, I am only noting that people react and treat her case differently as a result of age or aesthetics. If you don't believe me, do a search in the Irish media sites and tell me how many of the rapes that are reported there have warranted their own thread, or for that matter, the percentage of coverage this case has gotten in the Irish media compared to the rape that takes place every day.

She probably doesn't even fully comprehend what has gone on or what is going on now, it's just awful.

Absolutely, but my comment was not really meant to devalue her situation, only as a rather cynical observation on the rest of us.

Dudess

The Corinthian wrote: »

An observation; does her age (other than for medical reasons) really matter? If she was 19 or 29 and subjected to similar abuse would people feel quite as emotional about it?

It just strikes me as similar to how people react when they hear about cruelty to cute fluffy animals, versus non-cute fluffy animals.

Bah, I'm just too cynical...

It would appear so - at nine years of age, there is far more of a risk to her life than their would be to a female who is 10 or 20 years older and at the same stage of pregnancy with twins.
And nine-year-olds shouldn't even be aware of the existence of rapists, at least 19/29-year-olds are.

I'm very surprised at this when doctors advised church representatives that it was a risk to her life.
Excommunication could be devastating for very poor families in Brazil - the church is often all they have in terms of food and clothing provisions which have been donated.

Ickle Magoo

The Corinthian wrote: »

No people don't really react to rapists in general. Certainly we all think it's bad and terrible and these people should be locked up, etc, but we're not moved to start threads on the Internet about it, only about those cases that press the correct emotional buttons.

Is it the rapist they are reacting to? I thought it was the excommunication.

The Corinthian wrote: »

I don't deny that for a second, I am only noting that people react and treat her case differently as a result of age or aesthetics. If you don't believe me, do a search in the Irish media sites and tell me how many of the rapes that are reported there have warranted their own thread, or for that matter, the percentage of coverage this case has gotten in the Irish media compared to the rape that takes place every day.

Absolutely, but my comment was not really meant to devalue her situation, only as a rather cynical observation on the rest of us.

Again, I think the media furore is less about the rape & abuse - disgusting & awful as it is - and more about an organisation with a running history of having knowledge of and hiding child abuse who have already had to appologise for having completely twisted priorities and a complete lack of sympathy for abuse victims, dropping to an all time low by publicly admonishing a child rape victim who didn't want to die giving birth. I think that coupled with the lack of admonishment for the rapist as his crime of raping his nine year old step-daughter was less abhorrent to the Church than her wish to live. Same Church, different day/child/country - I think that's what caused the outrage & the media coverage.

The Corinthian

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Again, I think the media furore is less about the rape & abuse - disgusting & awful as it is - and more about an organisation with a running history of having knowledge of and hiding child abuse who have already had to appologise for having completely twisted priorities and a complete lack of sympathy for abuse victims, dropping to an all time low by publicly admonishing a child rape victim who didn't want to die giving birth. I think that coupled with the lack of admonishment for the rapist as his crime of raping his nine year old step-daughter was less abhorrent to the Church than her wish to live. Same Church, different day/child/country - I think that's what caused the outrage & the media coverage.

A fair rebuttal.

Rev Hellfire

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Again, I think the media furore is less about the rape & abuse - disgusting & awful as it is - and more about an organisation with a running history of having knowledge of and hiding child abuse who have already had to appologise for having completely twisted priorities and a complete lack of sympathy for abuse victims, dropping to an all time low by publicly admonishing a child rape victim who didn't want to die giving birth. I think that coupled with the lack of admonishment for the rapist as his crime of raping his nine year old step-daughter was less abhorrent to the Church than her wish to live. Same Church, different day/child/country - I think that's what caused the outrage & the media coverage.

Well in fairness I don't think they excommunicated the child, it was just the mother and the doctors.
But in the end of the Ickle's right most of us really don't get a toss about the child, it makes for a great news story and we all get to pontificate about that nasty 'ol catholic church. Come next week it'll have all been forgotten about and we'll have a new shiny bobble to crow over.

Ickle Magoo

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Well in fairness I don't think they excommunicated the child, it was just the mother and the doctors.
But in the end of the Ickle's right most of us really don't get a toss about the child, it makes for a great news story and we all get to pontificate about that nasty 'ol catholic church. Come next week it'll have all been forgotten about and we'll have a new shiny bobble to crow over.

I didn't say she was excommunicated, I said she was publicly admonished.
In fairness, I don't know many people who are not horrified at what's happened in this case, from the girl's abuse to having to suffer public humiliation as her family & doctors are excommunicated for trying to save her life.

There is a very real sense of anger & frustration at the Catholic Church in yet another scandal where child abuse is involved. That can be twisted into being nothing more than deliberately negative media coverage or cynical readership but it doesn't change the facts of the case. An already awful situation deliberately made worse for a little girl by an organisation that is supposed to encompass all that is sympathetic and caring. :mad:

Rev Hellfire

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

In fairness, I don't know many people who are not horrified at what's happened in this case, from the girl's abuse to having to suffer public humiliation as her family & doctors are excommunicated for trying to save her life.

All you say is true and I certainly wouldn't disagree with your analysis of the situation. Its a despicable act handled in an insensitive manner.

But I simply can't help but feel that these are crocodile tears as far as the child is concerned. The general population while disapproving of the situation are not in any real way moved by it.

I don't mean to sound trite, but a rape case in the media is just another rape case no big deal. We (as the general population) have become desensitised to the issue from what I can see, the item of interest is the involvement of the catholic church. That's not to say that the criticism is not without merit, but it also smacks of opportunism.

Loxosceles

Well, that's horrible, being excommunicated from a self-flagellating, ritualistic perv club who believe in stuff like flabby matzo crackers turning into the zombie flesh of a dead Mensch, and having to eat it after going into a little dark box and telling a perv how many times you pleased yourself that week and saying you're sorry for it, and then getting in line for your Dawn of the Dead Mensch Matzo Eating Ritual. And then saying women should be pregnant all the time making babies so we all can eat more Dead Mensch Matzo.

I think it has about as much impact on life as excommunication from a jellybean tasting society. This kid shouldn't have been raped but it happens, and no kid needs to be having kids, and the opinion of the Dead Mensch Matzo Pervs should have no value whatsoever at all, period.

lox.

Dudess

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

most of us really don't get a toss about the child, it makes for a great news story and we all get to pontificate about that nasty 'ol catholic church. Come next week it'll have all been forgotten about and we'll have a new shiny bobble to crow over.

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I simply can't help but feel that these are crocodile tears as far as the child is concerned. The general population while disapproving of the situation are not in any real way moved by it.

I don't mean to sound trite, but a rape case in the media is just another rape case no big deal. We (as the general population) have become desensitised to the issue from what I can see, the item of interest is the involvement of the catholic church. That's not to say that the criticism is not without merit, but it also smacks of opportunism.

With respect, I really can't abide that kind of cynicism - I find it unnecessary and a bit attention-seeking tbh. The media circus following the Madeleine McCann disappearance - yes, that was vile and opportunistic, but please don't compare ordinary people who are genuinely horrified at the child's rape (catholic church doing something to invite a bashing or not) to lowlives like Rupert Murdoch. It's unfair to just assume people aren't genuinely upset by it and are only using it as leverage to criticise the catholic church.

Loxosceles wrote: »

Well, that's horrible, being excommunicated from a self-flagellating, ritualistic perv club who believe in stuff like flabby matzo crackers turning into the zombie flesh of a dead Mensch, and having to eat it after going into a little dark box and telling a perv how many times you pleased yourself that week and saying you're sorry for it, and then getting in line for your Dawn of the Dead Mensch Matzo Eating Ritual. And then saying women should be pregnant all the time making babies so we all can eat more Dead Mensch Matzo.

I think it has about as much impact on life as excommunication from a jellybean tasting society. This kid shouldn't have been raped but it happens, and no kid needs to be having kids, and the opinion of the Dead Mensch Matzo Pervs should have no value whatsoever at all, period.

Might be no big deal to you or I to be excommunicated from the catholic church, but we're living in the West... Impoverished people of South America rely on the catholic church in more ways than just spiritually.

Rev Hellfire

Dudess wrote: »

With respect, I really can't abide that kind of cynicism - I find it unnecessary and a bit attention-seeking tbh.

Dudess wrote: »

It's unfair to just assume people aren't genuinely upset by it and are only using it as leverage to criticise the catholic church.

I don't see any reason to assume otherwise.
Let me put it to you another way if all these people where truly moved by the plight of this little girl surely you'd expect people to attempt to do something about it. But beyond a few letters to the editor there'll be little or no action taken by the population at large. It'll pass away forgotten like yesterdays news. A cynical view, yes, but a realistic one.

Dudess

Not doing anything about it doesn't automatically mean lack of sincerity. I find your view more than cynical... quite judgemental actually.
What could people do? It's out of the hands of ordinary people here, apart from making donations to charities over there.

Ickle Magoo

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

All you say is true and I certainly wouldn't disagree with your analysis of the situation. Its a despicable act handled in an insensitive manner.

But I simply can't help but feel that these are crocodile tears as far as the child is concerned. The general population while disapproving of the situation are not in any real way moved by it.

I don't mean to sound trite, but a rape case in the media is just another rape case no big deal. We (as the general population) have become desensitised to the issue from what I can see, the item of interest is the involvement of the catholic church. That's not to say that the criticism is not without merit, but it also smacks of opportunism.

To me, the incessant "they don't care about the child, they're just using it as a stick to beat the Church" inferences just smack of a cynical & twisted logic. By pointing out how popular a story it made in the media, somehow the wave of public revulsion towards the actions of the Catholic Church can be negated - in respect of this particular story - by trying to distance peoples feelings towards the act & blaming it on a general malaise towards the organisation instead?

I think that's more than a little disingenuous & does a great injustice both to those genuinely expressing their sympathy at the little girls' plight & the very real anger felt at those responsible for compounding her problems.

Rev Hellfire

Dudess wrote: »

Not doing anything about it doesn't automatically mean lack of sincerity. I find your view more than cynical... quite judgemental actually.

Of course its a judgement, just as you're using your judgement to assume I'm wrong. Neither of us have any evidence to collaborate our opinion.

Dudess wrote: »

What could people do? It's out of the hands of ordinary people here, apart from making donations to charities over there.

Has it 'moved' you enough to do something ? Perhaps people could look at how their purchases here might effect the plight of people over their and adjust their purchases accordingly.

Or is it people only care until it requires effort.

Dudess

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

Has it 'moved' you enough to do something ? Perhaps people could look at how their purchases here might effect the plight of people over their and adjust their purchases accordingly.

Yeah... buying Fair Trade coffee, boycotting Coca Cola.

joe freethinker

ShooterSF wrote: »

Lucky doctors I'd say, some might call it Karma even. I'd love to be excommunicated.

have to agree here I'm sure the doctor wasn't a devoted catholic or he wouldnt have preformed the presedure.
I'm PRO-COICE do your worst benedict I'm shakin' in me boots.

philologos

joe freethinker wrote: »

have to agree here I'm sure the doctor wasn't a devoted catholic or he wouldnt have preformed the presedure.
I'm PRO-COICE do your worst benedict I'm shakin' in me boots.

Well Papal decrees only really affect those who are Catholics, and if they do they only affect it in a small way. The Pope is only an authority figure for those who choose to follow Catholicism. As such I don't see how Benedict could do anything to you at all, let alone his worst.