The Death Penalty [Christian Only Please]

JimiTime

Just wondering if the Christians here believe in the death penalty as a punishment?

Personally, my instincts say we should kill certain criminals, but I don't know if this is compatible with Christs teachings, so I'm curently undecided while leaning towards the 'Yes' side. Would love to hear your thoughts on it.

There is a Poll on this thread too.

PDN

No.

If justice always operated fairly, then I would probably support the death penalty in certain circumstances. There are some crimes (eg genocide, or tortuting & raping a child) which I think should merit the death penalty - but I don't have confidence in any human justice system to apply such a penalty fairly.

In repressive States the death penalty is used as a weapon to suppress minorities and dissidents (eg the execution of Christians in China & North Korea). In democracies (eg the US) it discriminates against the poor, black and marginalised because they don't get the same legal representation or sympathy from the establishment as does a white-collar (and white-faced) murderer.

I would rather let 100 people who should be executed get off more lightly with life imprisonment than to risk the wrongful execution of 1 innocent person.

JimiTime

PDN wrote: »

No.

If justice always operated fairly, then I would probably support the death penalty in certain circumstances. There are some crimes (eg genocide, or tortuting & raping a child) which I think should merit the death penalty - but I don't have confidence in any human justice system to apply such a penalty fairly.

I'd have to agree here.

In repressive States the death penalty is used as a weapon to suppress minorities and dissidents (eg the execution of Christians in China & North Korea). In democracies (eg the US) it discriminates against the poor, black and marginalised because they don't get the same legal representation or sympathy from the establishment as does a white-collar (and white-faced) murderer.

Good point.

I would rather let 100 people who should be executed get off more lightly with life imprisonment than to risk the wrongful execution of 1 innocent person.

I know what you mean, I'm just feeling a bit emotional about the brutal rape in Drogheda and the murders of the policeman and soldiers up North. Also, the teenager that stabbed and killed the two polish men in Drimnagh etc. I just want them dead. If the alternative to the Death penalty was in fact 'life' imprisonment, I'd probably be ok with that. The thing is, I think about the 'serial' rapist who was given a longer than normal sentance because of the brutality of his rapes. He gets out after he 'serves his time', and rapes again. Now if we turn this around, it could be said that there is quite a few innocent victims because there is no death penalty. So it could be said, that there are more innocent victims from not having the death penalty. Seriously, a serial rapist should never be allowed the chance to reoffend. A few men in suits assessing if they think he will or not jut doesn't cut it. Same goes for a Paedophile. 'I'm really sorry, I wont do it again'. 'I really hope you are telling the truth, but I can't rist the life of some other poor kid I'm afraid.' That IMO, is the only reasonable stance.

I suppose, its such a difficult scenario due to the corruption and inequality thats present in every justice system. One thing I will say though, is that I hate the reasoning that the death penalty makes you just as guilty as a muderer. Following that reasoning, you may as well say sending someone to prison makes you as guilty as a kidnapper.

homer911

There's Punishment and there's Vengance

"Vengance is mine" says God

Fanny Cradock

PDN wrote: »

No.

If justice always operated fairly, then I would probably support the death penalty in certain circumstances. There are some crimes (eg genocide, or tortuting & raping a child) which I think should merit the death penalty - but I don't have confidence in any human justice system to apply such a penalty fairly.

In repressive States the death penalty is used as a weapon to suppress minorities and dissidents (eg the execution of Christians in China & North Korea). In democracies (eg the US) it discriminates against the poor, black and marginalised because they don't get the same legal representation or sympathy from the establishment as does a white-collar (and white-faced) murderer.

I would rather let 100 people who should be executed get off more lightly with life imprisonment than to risk the wrongful execution of 1 innocent person.

Yeah, I would be against it for pretty much the same reasons. It seems fairly clear that the law - irrespective of the country or the political system it operates within - isn't as impartial as some would have us believe.

How different would this poll be amongst Christians in Texas, I wonder?

JimiTime

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Yeah, I would be against it for pretty much the same reasons. It seems fairly clear that the law - irrespective of the country or the political system it operates within - isn't as impartial as some would have us believe.

How different would this poll be amongst Christians in Texas, I wonder?

If we go on a tangeant here so, as I think we all agree with the pitfalls of the penalty. So, as a christian, what is it you think we should be seeking from the Justice system in these matters? or are you happy with how the current Justice system deals with offenders?

JimiTime

homer911 wrote: »

There's Punishment and there's Vengance

"Vengance is mine" says God

There's also IMO the most important thing which you left out, and thats 'Protection'. Whats done is done, we can't turn back the clock. What we can do however, is protect anyone else from being victims of these people. IMO, this is what is important. I'm not even that concerned about the punishment side. I just want the threat of these people removed as a protection to innocent civilians. Be it locked away forever, or a quiet peaceful death, I really don't care about those people being punished. As I said, its the protection element that I think is important.

Fanny Cradock

JimiTime wrote: »

If we go on a tangeant here so, as I think we all agree with the pitfalls of the penalty. So, as a christian, what is it you think we should be seeking from the Justice system in these matters? or are you happy with how the current Justice system deals with offenders?

There are probably 2 types of sentences - those strictly punitive in nature and those that are a mixture of the former but that also attempt to reform the criminal. I feel that the latter should be the ultimate goal of the justice system where appropriate. How this is done I don't know, but I'm not sure that simply locking up minor criminals who operate on a revolving door system really solves anything.

getz

homer911 wrote: »

There's Punishment and there's Vengance

"Vengance is mine" says God

he also said ;an eye for an eye

kiffer

... If they are dead they can not be forgiven and thus the execution of a yet unrepentant murderer condens him to a fate worse than death itself. Sure they may never repent and beg Jesus for forgiveness (and all the rest)... Or they might spend years in prison and find Jesus (legitimatelly) and thus be saved from hell...
Killing them would seem to be one of the most expedious methods of removing them from society but the least christian.

JimiTime

kiffer wrote: »

... If they are dead they can not be forgiven and thus the execution of a yet unrepentant murderer condens him to a fate worse than death itself.

I really don't get this sentiment. Death Penalty aside, do you really think that God works in this red-tape type way? Its like, 'tick the box, these are the rules'. He's not the HR manager.

antiskeptic

kiffer wrote: »

... If they are dead they can not be forgiven and thus the execution of a yet unrepentant murderer condens him to a fate worse than death itself. Sure they may never repent and beg Jesus for forgiveness (and all the rest)... Or they might spend years in prison and find Jesus (legitimatelly) and thus be saved from hell...
Killing them would seem to be one of the most expedious methods of removing them from society but the least christian.

I wouldn't imagine that my killing a person by execution / accident / murder / soldiering / etc... would take God by surprise. I'd imagine that he can ensure that every person has equal access to salvation - irrespective of the events in their life.

At the end of the day, no one dies without Gods say so.

Fanny Cradock

antiskeptic wrote: »

At the end of the day, no one dies without Gods say so.

Possibly, but then such a viewpoint - at least on a cursory level - could lead one to accuse God of being complicit in each and every death. This is why I've never personally understood the whole "God called him home" attitude. I would be more inclined to think that God hates death. Looking at how Jesus was said to have 'groaned' at the death of his friend Lazarus (and the pain it causes to others) you could conclude that death is not part of God's ultimate plan.

Something vaguely related here:
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/commentaries/?action=getCommentaryText&cid=4&source=1&seq=i.50.11.2

Sorry, I digress.

Pamela111

No as with Abortion, embryo stell research, euthenasia etc only God should decide when life begins and ends.

"THOU SHALT NOT COMMIT MURDER" and "LET HE WITHOUT SIN CAST THE FIRST STONE"

We can make gods of ourselves if we wish but Divine Justice will be our cup if we do and refuse to repent for our errors.

There is only one Judge and that is God and only Jesus Christ can save sinful mankind. Everyone will be judged by God whether we like it or not.

We all have to face God and there are many famous people and materially rich people in Hell. Me, you, David Beckham, the Pope and Barack Obama etc will all be judged in the same way.

aoibhebree

I'm all for life imprisonment in certain cases, as long as it's actually for life. The death penalty lets criminals off way too easy.

philologos

aoibhebree wrote: »

I'm all for life imprisonment in certain cases, as long as it's actually for life. The death penalty lets criminals off way too easy.

I disagree with you on the basis that I believe prisons should be about reforming peoples lives and changing them for the better in society. Is there much benefit of locking people up for the rest of their lives apart from satisfaction? I think education and so on should be primary, and that people if they have genuinely changed in a meaningful way should be given another chance at life.

antiskeptic

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Possibly, but then such a viewpoint - at least on a cursory level - could lead one to accuse God of being complicit in each and every death. This is why I've never personally understood the whole "God called him home" attitude. I would be more inclined to think that God hates death. Looking at how Jesus was said to have 'groaned' at the death of his friend Lazarus (and the pain it causes to others) you could conclude that death is not part of God's ultimate plan.

I don't see any way of escaping from God being the ultimate decider in these things. In the case of Job, for example, the details of his suffering are determined by satan, but satan is governed in absolute degree by a decree of God.

If someone is to die without Gods tacit permission that that occur then we enter the realm of things not being under Gods sovereign control. By control I don't mean God determines all things - but he does set the boudaries in which activity occurs.

Gods hating something is neither here nor there. He can hate sin but utilise it for his purposes (as he does in utilising mans lawbreaking to lead a man to Chirst). Similarily so, death.

homer911

coincidentally I'm reading John Grisham's book "The Innocent Man", non-fiction unusually enough for him. His account of life on Death Row would lead me to feel that the Death Penalty is not something over and done with in a moment (no matter how "humanely"), but something which takes place over the course of many years - a very slow death indeed

wolfsbane

I voted 'Yes'.

However, that is not to say I want it introduced in the same careless manner it seems to go in the USA. Great care should be taken in judging all cases, capital or not. Best guesses should not enter into it, nor police frame-ups. Spending 30 years in prison as an innocent man is not much different from being executed as one.

Mistakes will happen, so especially in capital cases one needs to be very circumspect. One help in that was the way the OT Law had of discouraging false accusations/frame-ups: the false accuser, if found out, suffered the fate he intended for the innocent party.

If a reasonable level of justice can be provided, then execution of murderers is the ideal. It is the most fitting sanction for murder: it is God-ordained as the proper response of society to murder:
Genesis 9:5 Surely for your lifeblood I will demand a reckoning; from the hand of every beast I will require it, and from the hand of man. From the hand of every man’s brother I will require the life of man.

6 “ Whoever sheds man’s blood,
By man his blood shall be shed;
For in the image of God
He made man.

God continues to require that in this New Testament age:
Romans 13: 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

It also can be arranged in a way that gives the guilty time to repent and prepare to meet his God. Murder can be forgiven by God, even as it is punished in this life.

But human life is so cheap today that murderers can be on the streets in well under 20 years. This follows from a change of worldview - man is no longer a sacred entity, made in God's image: now he is just another piece in the evolutionary jigsaw. The evolutionists who practice capital punishment do so not from an exalted view of man, but from an exalted view of the State.

Húrin

kiffer wrote: »

... If they are dead they can not be forgiven and thus the execution of a yet unrepentant murderer condens him to a fate worse than death itself. Sure they may never repent and beg Jesus for forgiveness (and all the rest)... Or they might spend years in prison and find Jesus (legitimatelly) and thus be saved from hell...
Killing them would seem to be one of the most expedious methods of removing them from society but the least christian.

I am against it for these reasons. Alos those presented by PDN and Pamela.

mumhaabu

I believe that if a man kills in cold blood for the thrill of it or without reason then he should expect to be put to death, this I believe is natural law and as a Catholic I see nothing immoral about it. People who kill in self defence or in righteous wars should be absolved of the sin of killing.

boringteetotal

It's not an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth anymore.
Who are we to play God?
We are all guilty sinners and His grace extends to all.

You could live a life of pure saintliness, not have Jesus as your saviour, and go to hell or you could live a relatively horrible life, receive Jesus, and go to heaven.

Whosoever calls on the Lords name will be saved.

wolfsbane

boringteetotal wrote: »

It's not an eye for an eye or a tooth for a tooth anymore.
Who are we to play God?
We are all guilty sinners and His grace extends to all.

You could live a life of pure saintliness, not have Jesus as your saviour, and go to hell or you could live a relatively horrible life, receive Jesus, and go to heaven.

Whosoever calls on the Lords name will be saved.

I take it you disagree with all forms of punishment then? Fines, imprisonment, etc.

Do you think any society could survive like that?

To your last point, no one lives a life of pure saintliness. All sin.

But if you mean relative 'good living, moral people' go to hell if they don't repent and believe in Christ, whilst very wicked people who repent and believe go to heaven, then I agree.