England v France (pre/during/post thread)

juvenal

England v France
Sunday 15 March 2009, 3.00pm (Irish)
Twickenham, London
Live on RTÉ2, RTÉ.ie, RTÉ Radio 1; BBC1, BBC Radio 5 Live

England|No.|France
Delon Armitage|15|Maxime Medard
Mark Cueto|14|Julien Malzieu
Mike Tindall|13|Mathieu Bastareaud
Riki Flutey|12|Yannick Jauzion
Ugo Monye|11|Cedric Heymans
Toby Flood|10|Francois Trinh-Duc
Harry Ellis|9|Morgan Parra
Andrew Sheridan|1|Lionel Faure
Lee Mears|2|Dimitri Szarzewski
Phil Vickery|3|Sylvain Marconnet
Simon Shaw|4|Lionel Nallet
Steve Borthwick|5|Jerome Thion
Tom Croft|6|Thierry Dusautoir
Joe Worsley|7|Sebastien Chabal
Nick Easter|8|Imanol Harinordoquy

England replacements: Dylan Hartley, Julian White, Nick Kennedy, James Haskell, Danny Care, Andy Goode, Mathew Tait.

France replacements: Benjamin Kayser, Thomas Domingo, Louis Picamoles, Julien Bonnaire, Sebastien Tillous-Borde, Florian Fritz, Damien Traille.

Referee: Stuart Dickinson (Australia)
Touch judges: Nigel Owens (Wales), Tim Hayes (Wales)
TMO: Nigel Whitehouse (Wales)

Quite an interesting matchup here, with both coaches making changes in the backrows and elsewhere for what is always a juicy encounter between Les Rosbifs and Les Bleus.

On the French side, Chabal makes a switch to the backrow for the first time in several months, having never played there for France under Marc Lievremont, and also having played at lock for his club Sale over the past few months. Lievremont brings in Lionel Faure and Jerome Thion at prop and second row respectively, to boost up the pack against a strong England forward line.

Francois Trinh-Duc retains his place at flyhalf after coming on early for the injured Benoit Baby and impressing in the victory against Wales, and will partner Morgan Parra in the halfback line. Mathieu Bastareaud also retains his place after a strong showing in Paris two weeks ago, and with an dangerous outside back three, the French will hope to make a difference out wide as there's likely to be no quarter given in the packs.

England coach Martin Johnson makes three changes to the side who narrowly lost to Ireland in Dublin. Lock Simon Shaw, flanker Tom Croft and wing Ugo Monye all come in to the starting XV, with Nick Kennedy, James Haskell, and the injured Paul Sackey making way. Croft has impressed me in the brief appearances he's made as a substitute, and fully deserves his chance in the place of Haskell. He'll also offer an additional line-out option in the absence of Kennedy, and Shaw's selection mirrors that of the French attitude that the key battle in this war will be in the pack.

Ugo Monye was unlucky to suffer a back injury just before the start of the Six Nations, and will come into the left wing with Cueto switching to right. Among the replacements, Danny Care retains his place despite arguably costing England a chance at victory in Dublin with a stupid sin-binning with ten minutes to go. Andy Goode remains as back up for Toby Flood having performed well in the last quarter in the Irish match.

France haven't beaten England since their RWC 2007 warm-up matches, having lost the RWC semi-final and 2008 Six Nations match both on their home turf. They'll be desperate to beat the English in London, and certainly have the armoury to do so. Despite losing two of their three games so far, England's biggest enemy has been the yellow card, with a staggering 60 minutes amassed in the bin in the 240 minutes played so far. You feel that if the French get territorial position and are applying pressure, there'll be more yellow flashed by Stuart Dickinson, and England will not win tests with that sort of indiscipline.

As the old mantra goes, forwards win matches, backs decide by how much, and this is very true of this match. Expect some huge collisions in the pack and breakdown area, and perhaps even a bit of fisticuffs. England have played well in patches, but ultimately let themselves down at crucial stages. The French are as usual an enigma, with good performances against Ireland and Wales punctuated by a load of drivel in Paris against the Scots. Despite their see-sawing form, this French team has more balance to it, and they'll certainly be focused and up for it. I see France raiding the RFU headquarters, in what has the potential to be a fine game, by less than ten.

England 19 France 26?

Noopti

Johnson needs to grow back the balls he had as a player. Dropping Kennedy to bring in Shaw? Harsh and completely unfair.

He needs to just admit that Borthwick is not only the wrong choice as captain, but a useless player right now, and drop him. He is about as useful as a bag of straw and Johnson should have replaced him with Shaw, and not Kennedy who has done nothing wrong this tournament. I feel sorry for Kennedy.

telemachus

In fairness there isn't exactly anyone that stands out to replace Borthwick poor as he is. It doesn't make sense to turf out one captain and replace him with another that could be due dropping every second game (which encompasses most of the team). I'd say Johnson will stick with Borthwick until someone eventually proves themselves over a period of time, the only thing worse than a bad captain is a new bad captain every second month.

Noopti

telemachus wrote: »

In fairness there isn't exactly anyone that stands out to replace Borthwick poor as he is. It doesn't make sense to turf out one captain and replace him with another that could be due dropping every second game (which encompasses most of the team). I'd say Johnson will stick with Borthwick until someone eventually proves themselves over a period of time, the only thing worse than a bad captain is a new bad captain every second month.

Every single pundit/expert/person I've heard discuss this issue has always said that Johnson should replace Borthwick as captain and drop him. And they are right. Vickery for one would be a better captain. Not saying he would be fantastic....but he would be better.

Just because there might be any standout captains in the team doesn't mean you keep someone who is obviously the worst. It is better to have someone even slightly better than keep someone who is so poor it is almost laughable.

I would put any of the below in as captain ahead of Borthwick right now:
1. Vickery
2. Tindall
3. Cueto (wing isn't great for Captain, but still better then the current)
4. Ellis

telemachus

It's like I said though, any of your options could be dropped and not be seen again for months, if ever again. Cueto is only recently back in the squad, and had a fairly rubbish few years, Ellis is yet to remain fit and in form for any reasonable period of time, Tindall isn't likely to be a permanent fixture in the team, he's an honest worker and often overly maligned but at heart he's a crash ball merchant with decent defense, and Vickery is a pale shadow of the player he was years ago, and again is a long way from a certain pick for the squad let alone the pitch.

I don't honestly think any of the players being captain would have made much of a difference in Englands last half dozen games or so, and until somone of good captain material cements their place in the team it's better not to play a guessing game of musical chairs.

Judgement Day

My analysis of England's prospects for Sunday based on the matches to date - I am an enthusiast rather than any sort of expert - is as follows.

England v Italy (36-11) - dire English performance.

England v Wales (15-23) - signs of English renaissance.

England v Ireland (13-14) - close but indisciplined English performance?

England v France - Twickenham factor + French team also in disarray -

England to win decisively. Just a gut feeling that this team are going to thrash someone soon or later and who better than the old enemy.

England will continue in the doldrums until Jonny Wilkinson returns.


Couldn't resist this and it's not the 2003 World Cup but just another example of Jonny's class!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mmfja79uAhs&feature=related

telemachus

There's nothing i'd love to see more than Wilkinson back and dragging this team into competitiveness but at this stage sadly I don't think the team or the fans can rely on it ever happening after so many false dawns , England have to get on with finding a long term fixture at fly-half and treat the return of Wilkinson if it happens as an unexpected bonus. Unfortunately finding long term fixtures anywhere on the pitch at the moment is easier said than done, this England team more then any I can remember really doesn't have any names that are automatic choices at their position when fit, which is part of the problem of determining a new captain.

Colm_OReilly

Thanks for the link dude, that was sa-weet!

I figure the French should piss off the English forwards to get them starting fights and sin binned, then kick home points. England to get even further pissed off and France to run home some tries.

What I'd like to see is England win and Italy pull off a surprising win in Rome like they did two years ago

Noopti

telemachus wrote: »

It's like I said though, any of your options could be dropped and not be seen again for months, if ever again.

Out of all my examples, Borthwick is the most droppable, so using your own argument he should not be captain at all. Correct?
The only reason he isn't being dropped is because he is captain and Johnson seems to be afraid to admit a mistake.

Like I said before just because there is no-one standing out as captain does not mean you keep someone who is probably the worst captain England have had in a long time there. I am not talking long term here, I am talking about the short term goal that England need to start performing and showing more discipline. This will not happen with Borthwick as he hasn't got the ability to lead the other 14 guys on the pitch.

They need to sort out the short term first (ie: getting some performances/results) and then they can start looking out for a long term captain. Saying that there is no-one there who can lead better than Borthwick is burying your head in the sand and refusing to accept an obvious problem and an obvious solution. This is exactly what Johnson is doing.

Johnson is completely confused about what he role is in that England coaching setup. That much is clear as day.

Amabokke

Johnson should drop all the english players and the IRB allow him to pick all the boks playing in Europe at the moment to save him from further embarrassment

telemachus

Amabokke wrote: »

Johnson should drop all the english players and the IRB allow him to pick all the boks playing in Europe at the moment to save him from further embarrassment

It'd be worth it, just to make them sing God Save the Queen

Judgement Day

Well what can I say - just a pity that I didn't put more on with Paddy Power.com .........God was home today and stuff the begrudgers! Even Andy Goode couldn't lose us the match! :):)

teednab-el

Judgement Day wrote: »

England v France - Twickenham factor + French team also in disarray -

England to win decisively. Just a gut feeling that this team are going to thrash someone soon or later and who better than the old enemy.

well I dont know how you saw that coming! but well done! I never thought England would hammer France in the way that they did. What do you think the outcome is for saturday- Ireland to win Grand Slam?

Judgement Day

Well, it's like I said it was just a gut feeling from a fanatical supporter rather than an expert. I think that the Scottish match could also be a wipeout as they (Scotland) seem clueless - and it is Twickenham again - fingers crossed that Toby Flood is back and that Andy Goode is dropped altogether.

I fully expect Ireland to win the Grand Slam - even in Cardiff - as Wales are also in some serious disarray. Money on the outcome too so come on Ireland! :)