Where would I have stood legally?

Odysseus

I came out of a shop today to find my bike lying on its side, about 200e damage done. I was able to establish that 4 youths had kicked it over. I got this vauge discription from a taxi driver "one was wearing a blue hoddie" [outstanding observation skills]. He was parked about 5 feet away when it happened I can't believed he just sat in his car:mad:

Anyway they were on their toes by the time I arrived. I check with the local garda station but the CCTV was pointed in the opposite direction. My question is is had I arrived in time to catch one or two of them where would I have stood legally in relation to detaining them whilst the Garda was called?

Trojan911

Odysseus wrote: »

He was parked about 5 feet away when it happened I can't believed he just sat in his car:mad:

It's called "self preservation". I wouldn't take on four youths either, not for a replacable piece of metal whether it belonged to me or not. They also may have been carrying.

Power of arrest & here

TheNog

Good advice there from Trojan. Not worth it really but if you did see them do it (and it would be better if you did) you can detain them until Gardai arrive

source

Odysseus wrote: »

I came out of a shop today to find my bike lying on its side, about 200e damage done. I was able to establish that 4 youths had kicked it over. I got this vauge discription from a taxi driver "one was wearing a blue hoddie" [outstanding observation skills]. He was parked about 5 feet away when it happened I can't believed he just sat in his car:mad:

Anyway they were on their toes by the time I arrived. I check with the local garda station but the CCTV was pointed in the opposite direction. My question is is had I arrived in time to catch one or two of them where would I have stood legally in relation to detaining them whilst the Garda was called?

perfectly fine to do this, legally speaking, section 4 (1)(2) Criminal Law Act 97 allow's for "civilian arrest" (fr want of a better term) provided the civilian knows for a fact that he has the right person and hands them over to the gardai as soon as possible

however you never know who you're dealing with so care would be advised, don't get yourself into a situation where you could get yourself hurt or worse. no piece of property is worth getting a beating or being killed over

eroo

Can you be sued for false arrest if you made a 'Civilian Arrest', and subsequently arrested the person?

I know the implications of false arrest for Gardai and security staff, but not for 'Civilian Arrest'.

source

eroo wrote: »

Can you be sued for false arrest if you made a 'Civilian Arrest', and subsequently arrested the person?

I know the implications of false arrest for Gardai and security staff, but not for 'Civilian Arrest'.

security staff use the same piece of legislation:

4.—(1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5), any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is or whom he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects to be in the act of committing an arrestable offence.


(2) Subject to subsections (4) and (5), where an arrestable offence has been committed, any person may arrest without warrant anyone who is or whom he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects to be guilty of the offence.


(3) Where a member of the Garda Síochána, with reasonable cause, suspects that an arrestable offence has been committed, he or she may arrest without warrant anyone whom the member, with reasonable cause, suspects to be guilty of the offence.


(4) An arrest other than by a member of the Garda Síochána may only be effected by a person under subsection (1) or (2) where he or she, with reasonable cause, suspects that the person to be arrested by him or her would otherwise attempt to avoid, or is avoiding, arrest by a member of the Garda Síochána.


(5) A person who is arrested pursuant to this section by a person other than a member of the Garda Síochána shall be transferred into the custody of the Garda Síochána as soon as practicable.


(6) This section shall not affect the operation of any enactment restricting the institution of proceedings for an offence or prejudice any power of arrest conferred by law apart from this section.

eroo

Thanks foinse!

Odysseus

foinse wrote: »

perfectly fine to do this, legally speaking, section 4 (1)(2) Criminal Law Act 97 allow's for "civilian arrest" (fr want of a better term) provided the civilian knows for a fact that he has the right person and hands them over to the gardai as soon as possible

Cheers for that I understand I would have had to witnessed it personally. The station is just around the corner so I would have imagined a quick response from the Garda.

The reason I has is I had a similar experience before where I caught someone climbing out of my neighbours about 2 am. I sent the girlfriend to go straight in and lock herself in and call yourselves. Not having a go about the response time was over an hour.

It didn't get physical, I'm trained as a self defense instructor so the last thing I want was that. He reached for his pocket on a few occassions I reckon he had a screwdriver in there but never produced it. Anyway after about 15 mins he asked my could he go!! However, it was clear it was going to kick off if I didn't let him touch on. So I told him to leave the bags and go.

I killed me to do it, however, if I was hold him there, it was going to be messy. Though I didn't know it that would have been 45mins. Know you lads know much better than me how messy that would have been. So that brings me to another part of my question, if they resist can I as a cilivan use reasonable force to detain them and I do mean reasonable and in proportion to the amount of their resistance? I not talking about battering some here.

I know we talking about something that didn't happen here, but if I seen that happen to someone else bike I would try to stop it, and if I ever have to make that choice I can make an imformed decision from a legal viewpoint. Hope that makes sense.

Trojan911

Odysseus wrote: »

I know we talking about something that didn't happen here, but if I seen that happen to someone else bike I would try to stop it, and if I ever have to make that choice I can make an imformed decision from a legal viewpoint. Hope that makes sense.

Here is a thread from the Legal Discussion Forum that might help you regarding self defence.

TheNog

Odysseus wrote: »

Cheers for that I understand I would have had to witnessed it personally. The station is just around the corner so I would have imagined a quick response from the Garda.

Not having a go at you but this seems to be a misconception of some people. Just because the station is just around the corner doesnt mean there is someone available within the station to come running out to make an arrest. The phones still have to be manned especially the 999 phone. Generally speaking though in the country anyway there would be only one Garda in the station (and maybe the sergeant) and the rest out on patrol so they could be miles from the station. Having said that of course if a person was stabbed say or a shop being robbed etc etc there is a chance the Station Officer (Garda) could come out but be of little assistance ie no car

The reason I has is I had a similar experience before where I caught someone climbing out of my neighbours about 2 am. I sent the girlfriend to go straight in and lock herself in and call yourselves. Not having a go about the response time was over an hour.

If a burglar caught by neighbour would be considered a high priority call. Of course there are other incidents such as threat to life that would be even higher. Not making excuses for that long of a response cos I hvae no idea why you had to wait for an hour.

It didn't get physical, I'm trained as a self defense instructor so the last thing I want was that. He reached for his pocket on a few occassions I reckon he had a screwdriver in there but never produced it. Anyway after about 15 mins he asked my could he go!! However, it was clear it was going to kick off if I didn't let him touch on. So I told him to leave the bags and go.

I killed me to do it, however, if I was hold him there, it was going to be messy. Though I didn't know it that would have been 45mins. Know you lads know much better than me how messy that would have been. So that brings me to another part of my question, if they resist can I as a cilivan use reasonable force to detain them and I do mean reasonable and in proportion to the amount of their resistance? I not talking about battering some here.

I know we talking about something that didn't happen here, but if I seen that happen to someone else bike I would try to stop it, and if I ever have to make that choice I can make an imformed decision from a legal viewpoint. Hope that makes sense.

If you had been attacked you would have the right to defend yourself. The crim could complain of assault and it would probably go to court.

As for using reasonable force, well you'd be entering a very grey area. It would be better to avoid at all costs but again see point above.

Odysseus

Cheers thanks for that lads.

Nog I take you point about the misconception I was actually thinking that as I wrote it. Even with that anytime I'm in that town I generally notice a decent level of Garda patrolling. But yeah I take you point.

I understand the greyness of reasonable force, I was just hoping that you guys could have shone a bit more light on it. However, then again each such incident is different, so I know there is no definite answer. Cheers.

TheNog

Odysseus wrote: »

I understand the greyness of reasonable force, I was just hoping that you guys could have shone a bit more light on it. However, then again each such incident is different, so I know there is no definite answer. Cheers.

you hit the nail on the head there

deadwood

TheNog wrote: »

you hit the nail on the head there

...with reasonable force.