Wage Cut

joelou

My boss brought me into his office on Friday evening and told me he needed me to take a paycut, he loosely mentioned 10-15% and then took out his calculator and basically asked me to take a cut that would equal 8 grand a year:eek:! I was so shocked oh and also with immediate affect! Due to the economic downturn.
He told me to think about and I walked out of his office in a daze. I immediatley started to explore all my options. I cannot afford to take that kind of a paycut as my dh was made redundant two weeks ago and we are relying on my wage. I have worked here for 6.5yrs and I'm his only member of staff that he pays directly, we share staff with another company and he has not paid their monthly bills in quite some time.
Anyway I offered to work a three day week and claim the dole, he would not budge no matter how I argued that I could not afford to take such a cut he stood his ground and said basically that he needs me here 5 days a week to work for the lesser money, basically thats the job take it or leave it.
Well I know legally he is not allowed to do this, I do feel for him as the company is in dire straits and he does need to make urgent cutbacks or the business may not survive the next few months but surely what he will save in cutting my wages wont save the company. I really cannot afford such a paycut. I mean when you work it out its a 28.5% paycut.
I dont want to get nasty but I feel I'm left no option but to make a complaint to the rights commissioner. I have to look after myself and my family at the end of the day. I have tried to reason with him in every way possible but he will not budge, he says it is not up for negotiation and that he has to take drastic measures, his argument is surely I'm better off working for what he is offering than on the dole. I dont know what to do, I know the whole legal side of things but even if I did decide to lodge a complaint which I really do not want to have to do it can take up to six months for anything to be done on this and by that stage the company cud have gone bust, a strong possiblity.
Any advice?

AARRRGH

Am I right in thinking what you're trying to say is you want him to make you redundant instead?

joelou

He cannot make me redundant, he says that as long as the business survives I will have work but he is making it impossible for me to do so. We cannot manage financially if he makes such a drastic paycut to my wages. I tried to make him realise what he is asking and offered to take a 10 or 15 percent paycut but he said he is in no postition to argue.
I am so worried it will leave me with over 100 euro less a week in my take home pay.

AARRRGH

joelou wrote: »

He cannot make me redundant

Are you sure?

He has already stated the company can no longer afford to employ you, and has asked you to take a pay cut so you can keep your job. You have refused the pay cut.

I dunno, to me this looks like he has no choice but to make you redundant...

Xiney

:eek:

A 28.5% paycut is massive for anyone, but unless I'm wrong, it would bring you from 28k down to 20k, which is barely above minimum wage.

With that said, I don't know if you have anything other than to take it. Look for another job in the meantime.

Nody

It also depends greatly if you're on the higher tax grade or not, as with the 40% tax the actual cut would become noticble less.

Also worth noting that yes, he can make you redundant simply because he can't afford to pay for you. No one is that unique or special that they can't be made redundant.

Sleipnir

Also note that if you do take a pay cut and he subsequently makes you redundant, your redundancy payment will be based on your new, lower salary.

Xiney

I guess you'd better get advice from NERA, OP.

Firetrap

Just wondering - legally why can he not cut your wages? There are a lot of us out there who have taken pay cuts regardless of our domestic circumstances and what's written in our contracts.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Firetrap wrote: »

Just wondering - legally why can he not cut your wages? There are a lot of us out there who have taken pay cuts regardless of our domestic circumstances and what's written in our contracts.

A large enough cut could be considered constructive dismissal (essentially unfair dismissal as it makes it impossible for the employee to continue working and they have to quit) and the employee will be entitled to recourse.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/unemployment-and-redundancy/dismissal/constructive-dismissal

joelou

The reason I said that he cannot make me redundant is that if he did it would mean he could not advertise the position or fill it for six months. I know that everyone is taking paycuts I am not disputing that I offered to take a 10-15% paycut but he wont budge. He is stuck fast on me taking a 28.5% cut which I think is excessive unless your earning the big bucks which I'm not. I am in the lower tax bracket and yes Xiney that would be the jist of the wages that I am loosing. Furthermore I was owed 30 days holidays from last year that he would not allow me to take and he asked me to carry them over to this year which I aggreed to and now I will be getting paid for them at the lesser rate too.
He said it to me again on Friday that he could not afford to pay me anymore and that was it and if I did not think I could do it he would have to let me go. I feel railroaded and bullied into this. He knows there are no jobs out there. I am looking all the time. Yes the business is struggling but surely the cuts to my wages are not going to save it!

Nody

They can not create the same position but have them add task X or remove task Y and it is a new position and your position can be declared redundant. They can then open the competition for the new position, this is how most companies do reorganisations and get rid of people they don't want.

A year ago people who did not get the increase they asked for would jump ship because there was always someone else willing to pay. The employee could play out the employers against each other then, now the roles are reversed. It is a never ending change of power in the relationship.

Xiney

Go to NERA, seriously.

None of us have the expertise to advise you on this. It's a crap situation but as long as you don't agree to the wage cut, at least you'll get your holiday pay at the higher rate.



If his business is doing so badly, he'll probably let you go eventually anyway. Might as well get the higher rate redundancy and holiday pay.

joelou

I have spoken to Nera and I am waiting on the complaint forms to come out to me in the post. I dont want to go down this route as i have worked for him since the business started and he may see it as I'm being nasty but he is not taking my position into consideration, I have an unemployed hubby and two young kids at home. He is an unmarried bachelor, mammies boy in his forties. I dont feel as I am being left with any choice.
As for the holiday pay it will never happen. He wont even give me a full day off if I look for it, he says he would only ever be able to give me a half day. I rang in sick about 3 weeks ago and he said could I come in to register a car for him (car dealership)
He is a useless m.d he is clueless and never had to work for anything, he is so niave and will refuse to pay me my holidays at the higher rate I know this. It will just come back to the same old "I have not got the money" etc. I dont know what way the business will go but I have to look out for number one, if my situation was different I would not be filing a complaint but I really feel like he is being unfair on this one. He has never been known for his diplomicy in any matter and previous staff have been bullied by him for years.
Its a horrible position to be in. His argument is surely I'm better off working for what he is offering than being on the dole! And unfortunately he is right.

Mrs OBumble

So basically your choices are:

1) sign up to the pay cut, and do nothing else.

2) sign up to the pay cut, look for another job, and as soon as you (or your husband) find something, quit and hit him with a claim for constructive dismissal.

3) don't agree, but instead make a complaint. He will start paying you the lesser amount anyway (most probably), and will owe you back wages when the complaint goes against him. This could take months, and the settlement could put the company out of business.

Or if there some other options here that I'm missing?

You need to decide which option to follow. Doesn't sound like you're keen on 1), and the choice between 2) and 3) comes down to how angry you are with him. Have you asked how much of a pay cut he's taken?

Either way, I think you need to visit MABS, to work out how you're going to live on your new income level (which is either going to be the lower wage, or the JB, maybe with redundancy if you're "lucky").

Oh - and you said that he's bullied "other staff". For what it's worth, it sounds like he's bullying you too: having a situation where you can never take more than 1/2 a days leave at a time is totally unhealthy, for you AND the business.

Good luck!

Xiney

Please make the complaint OP.

Before you posted the latest, I had some sympathy for your boss - sure, businesses everywhere are struggling. But not allowing you to take more than even a 1/2 day off? That's tantamount to abuse, quite frankly.

InReality

joelou wrote: »

I have spoken to Nera and I am waiting on the complaint forms to come out to me in the post. I dont want to go down this route as i have worked for him since the business started and he may see it as I'm being nasty but he is not taking my position into consideration, I have an unemployed hubby and two young kids at home. He is an unmarried bachelor, mammies boy in his forties. I dont feel as I am being left with any choice.
As for the holiday pay it will never happen. He wont even give me a full day off if I look for it, he says he would only ever be able to give me a half day. I rang in sick about 3 weeks ago and he said could I come in to register a car for him (car dealership)
He is a useless m.d he is clueless and never had to work for anything, he is so niave and will refuse to pay me my holidays at the higher rate I know this. It will just come back to the same old "I have not got the money" etc. I dont know what way the business will go but I have to look out for number one, if my situation was different I would not be filing a complaint but I really feel like he is being unfair on this one. He has never been known for his diplomicy in any matter and previous staff have been bullied by him for years.
Its a horrible position to be in. His argument is surely I'm better off working for what he is offering than being on the dole! And unfortunately he is right.

Well if he is that useless maybe your in a stronger bargaining position than you think.
Sounds like he needs you to make any go of the business.

hblock21

joelou wrote: »

his argument is surely I'm better off working for what he is offering than on the dole.

Never give that statement the time of day. Look after number one, thats what he's doing, he's pushing to see how much money he can really save. Like my own boss, he's a horrible little bollicks. He probably hangs out the tea bags to dry.

youcrazyjesus!

Negotiate a smaller paycut and make sure you get your days off - you're legally entitled to the time off. Don't just say "yes sir" and bend over. The difference between paying you 20k and 24k (instead of 28k) isn't going to make or break the company.

joelou

there is no bargining with him at all. I offered to take up to a 15% paycut and he told me not to be getting bogged down in percentages! He said anytime we discussed wages that it was always based on an hourly rate and that is what he is doing now. He has not mentioned anything about taking a cut himself and he has not asked me to work out what his take home pay would be if he is taking any cut. I honestly dont think he is going to.
My direct debit is now cancelled for my wages and he will pay me on a Friday evening into my hand. Its a very difficult position to be in and I dont like it.
I really dont want to be going down the road of filing a complaint and I think he will take it very badly that I am. But I feel like i have very little choice as if the business does improve my wages will not go back to their original status as he will be trying to break even again. The man would hang out his teabags he is as tight as tuppence and always has been. If he does not take a paycut in line with mine it is the ultimate kick in the face in my eyes.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Stop being so non-confrontational. This is your life and frankly he sounds like he's either incompetent or taking the piss.

He's looking after himself, so you make damn sure you look after yourself.

Get legal advice.

youcrazyjesus!

I'm not an aggressive person but I'd be TELLING HIM in no uncertain terms what the situation is. I wouldn't accept fobbing off on such a thing.

I'd say I'm happy to take a paycut and I think X amount is fair and I won't accept anything lower than that. Say you have a mortgage/girlfriend to support.

See what he says but draw a line in the sand and I would definitely be asking him if he's taking a paycut.

joelou wrote: »

there is no bargining with him at all. I offered to take up to a 15% paycut and he told me not to be getting bogged down in percentages! He said anytime we discussed wages that it was always based on an hourly rate and that is what he is doing now. He has not mentioned anything about taking a cut himself and he has not asked me to work out what his take home pay would be if he is taking any cut. I honestly dont think he is going to.
My direct debit is now cancelled for my wages and he will pay me on a Friday evening into my hand. Its a very difficult position to be in and I dont like it.
I really dont want to be going down the road of filing a complaint and I think he will take it very badly that I am. But I feel like i have very little choice as if the business does improve my wages will not go back to their original status as he will be trying to break even again. The man would hang out his teabags he is as tight as tuppence and always has been. If he does not take a paycut in line with mine it is the ultimate kick in the face in my eyes.

Macker1

What did other employees in the company take as a pay-cut. Do you have a contract, if so what does it say in relation to this matter. I think in the current climate we all will have to make sacrifices but there has to be a limit to the amount of pain that we suffer and it should be equally shared based on each persons circumstances.

joelou

Macker1 wrote: »

What did other employees in the company take as a pay-cut. Do you have a contract, if so what does it say in relation to this matter. I think in the current climate we all will have to make sacrifices but there has to be a limit to the amount of pain that we suffer and it should be equally shared based on each persons circumstances.

We share premises and staff with another company ran by his brother which bill him monthly for wages. He has not paid them in months. In our side of the business he only pays myself and himself. There are no other staff in our side of the building.

I have no written contract here and never had. As I have said before I had no problems in taking a paycut just not of this magnitude. Surely he would have to take a cut too. I mean it would be hypocritial of him to force one on me and not take any himself. But it would not surprise me.

InReality

Ah this sounds all wrong.
If there is only the 2 of you in the place , then you need to stand up for yourself now.
How will you be able to face going to work if you think he is screwing you over all the time ?
Nip this in the bud.

Xiney

regardless of whether you have a written contract or not, I doubt he'll be allowed to pay you at the lower rate without your agreement in writing.

I could be wrong but I highly doubt it.

In any case, I wouldn't leave just yet if he tries - until you agree in writing you'll probably be able to take him to court for the wages he owes you so I'd personally stay on staff just to get these for when I do leave.


Again, real advise is what you really need here. Good for you for going to NERA.

Emerald Lass

joelou wrote: »

His argument is surely I'm better off working for what he is offering than being on the dole! And unfortunately he is right.

are you sure about this? dole for a single person is €204 and then as you are married there would be a higher amount. I know you said your partner is unemployed at the moment too, so not sure how it works when both partners are eligible for dole and both unemp - but check it out.
Also bear in mind that if you are full time unemployed you can apply to your HSE for rent subsidy. This usually is at least the interest portion of your mortgage. You can also ask your bank if you can change to an interest only mortgage. Wheny you take all this into account then it may not be true that you are better off with €20k than on the dole.

Look at this as an illustration:
€20,000 wages = €1666.66 per month
less mortgage of €1000 a month leaves you with €666.66 per month.

Dole at €204 per week (minimum you would get) is aprox €884 per month.
If you were granted the housing subsidy to pay for interest portion of your mortgage at apox €800 per month, then there would only be €200 left that you would have to find yourself.
dole €884 less your portion of the mortgage €200 = €684

And if the bank changed you to interest only you would actually be €200 BETTER OFF!

this guy is ripping the piss - in particular with his attitude and approach.

Definitely file a complaint. I have a feeling that he is making your salary so low in the hope that he can continue on his own salary and still have you. As others said if you leave then he still wins because he'll get soem grateful young person straight out of college who lives at home for €20,000.

don't let him take advantage - jobs are hard to find and he is using this to bully you into working at barely above minimum wage. which wouldn't eb so bad if you were single with no responsibilities but for your situation you would be better off unemployed! :mad:

homeOwner

If he has already decided that you are getting a 28% pay cut then I think you should take him up on his offer to make you redundant or force him into it by refusing to accept the pay cut. He is obliged to pay you statutory redundancy and at 6.5 years service this will work out to be about 13 weeks salary and since you are on the lower tax bracket it will probably end up being all tax free. This will sort you out at your current monthly take home pay for 4 may 5 months. On top of that you will get dole from day 1 which will give you an extra month or two's living expenses in the bank.

You could start looking for a new job or join a FAS training course to re-skill while receiving dole.

You will have the same money in your hand for working at least 6 months at your current salary. 6 months down the road you could be in a much better position.

If you accept this pay cut you will be working mad hours for less money and you would actually be better off mentally and probably in the same position financially taking a minimum wage job with 40 hours a week and guaranteed no overtime or weekend work.

I think redundancy is the best route to take.

joelou

He will not make me redundant, he said there is a job here for me but it is to work for the lesser money. Again he is not allowed to do this I know. I got the complaint forms from Nera yesterday and I am posting them this evening. He has not taken any paycut himself as I collected his wages today from the bank. Also as long as I have worked for him he has never had any petty cash on the premises. He has always drawn down 150euro a week in petty cash and pockets it himself. And today he still drew down the same.
I asked him for the chq book yesterday so as I could update the bank ledger. He had written two cheques totaling over 1500 euro for landscaping for his own house:eek:. I am so angry today but he is not here to vent at. He always has put every personal expense he had through the business from his personal esb to clothes to medical insurance but I think he is really taking the piss now.
I feel so worthless and exhausted from all the worring I have been doing since he proposed this cut initally and I dont know what more I can do.:(

herya

Apart from your current situation he looks like a one toxic employer and you should run a mile as soon as you can do so safely...

Darragh29

Sean_K wrote: »

A large enough cut could be considered constructive dismissal (essentially unfair dismissal as it makes it impossible for the employee to continue working and they have to quit) and the employee will be entitled to recourse.

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/employment/unemployment-and-redundancy/dismissal/constructive-dismissal

I don't think this is a runner at all in the current context. You could possibly make this argument in the context of the business being healthy and cashflow pressures not existing, but in the current situation, where the situation seems quite dire, it would be difficult to see how a situation that is being forced on not just the OP but also his/her employer, could be construed as an attempt at constructive dismissal.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Darragh29 wrote: »

I don't think this is a runner at all in the current context. You could possibly make this argument in the context of the business being healthy and cashflow pressures not existing, but in the current situation, where the situation seems quite dire, it would be difficult to see how a situation that is being forced on not just the OP but also his/her employer, could be construed as an attempt at constructive dismissal.

Well the motives of the employer could be brought into question. He could be trying to wind up and minimize his liability regarding statutory redundancy.

i.e. employee quits, no redundancy
employee accepts new pay package, redundancy greatly reduced

Although without knowing more of the circumstances, it's hard to call.

joelou

I went down on Friday evening to give him his wages. He has not taken any paycut and is still drawing down the petty cash. He said he was going to give me 1 euro more an hour. He thought a lot of me and did not want to loose me etc...
I do feel sorry for him in one way but surely if business is that bad why is he not taking the paycut that I am taking albeit any cut at all???

Thomas_S_Hunterson

joelou wrote: »

I do feel sorry for him in one way but surely if business is that bad why is he not taking the paycut that I am taking albeit any cut at all???

Because you're letting him treat you like dirt.

Blue_Wolf

8grand as 10% cut, so your on 72k now, that's not too bad at all, better off than most people. I took a 50% pay cut, finding it hard but at least i have a job

bobbbb

joelou wrote: »

He will not make me redundant, he said there is a job here for me but it is to work for the lesser money. Again he is not allowed to do this I know. I got the complaint forms from Nera yesterday and I am posting them this evening. He has not taken any paycut himself as I collected his wages today from the bank. Also as long as I have worked for him he has never had any petty cash on the premises. He has always drawn down 150euro a week in petty cash and pockets it himself. And today he still drew down the same.
I asked him for the chq book yesterday so as I could update the bank ledger. He had written two cheques totaling over 1500 euro for landscaping for his own house:eek:. I am so angry today but he is not here to vent at. He always has put every personal expense he had through the business from his personal esb to clothes to medical insurance but I think he is really taking the piss now.
I feel so worthless and exhausted from all the worring I have been doing since he proposed this cut initally and I dont know what more I can do.:(

Do not do anything,
Get legal advice. If it comes to it get someone else to fight your case for you.
He cant just cut your wages without your consent. Do not give it.

Silverfish

Blue_Wolf wrote: »

8grand as 10% cut, so your on 72k now, that's not too bad at all, better off than most people. I took a 50% pay cut, finding it hard but at least i have a job

No, 8 grand as a 28.5% paycut. If you read the thread the figures are mentioned a lot.

InReality

" He always has put every personal expense he had through the business from his personal esb to clothes to medical insurance but I think he is really taking the piss now."
Isn't this illegal ?
Contact the revenue fraud line at some point.
This sort of stuff is part of the reason the country is f****ed.

hayabusa1300

hi joelou
just been reading your story, how have you got on? im getting into that situation at work right now.

joelou

I'm afraid nothing more has changed. The pay cut was implemented. I felt I had no other option to comply what with the current job market being as it is and he knew that also. I am down nearly 90euro a week, its a disaster. I am still working the same hours and holidays that I was made to carry over from last year if I am ever let take them will be paid at the lesser wage:mad:
He knows he has me by the preverbials! He still continues to give himself the same wage, puts all his personal expenses through the business and has upped the weekly petty cash from 150 to 750, all of which he pockets.
As much as I would love to pick him up on this as at the end of the day I am the employee and he is the boss!
This country is a joke:(

Thomas_S_Hunterson

joelou wrote: »

I'm afraid nothing more has changed. The pay cut was implemented. I felt I had no other option to comply what with the current job market being as it is and he knew that also. I am down nearly 90euro a week, its a disaster. I am still working the same hours and holidays that I was made to carry over from last year if I am ever let take them will be paid at the lesser wage:mad:
He knows he has me by the preverbials! He still continues to give himself the same wage, puts all his personal expenses through the business and has upped the weekly petty cash from 150 to 750, all of which he pockets.
As much as I would love to pick him up on this as at the end of the day I am the employee and he is the boss!
This country is a joke:(

If he's pocketing the petty-cash then he's evading tax.

Firetrap

Yeah, it would be tempting to tip off the Revenue Commissioners for a tax audit but that could just close the place down in the end.

murf313

OP i cant believe you are letting this guy get away with it. All he is doing is bullying you!
He is forcing you to take a very large pay cut even against your wishes, which he cannot do!
Obviously he is not in that much financial difficulty if he is happily siphoning money off for himself.
Do not let this guy walk all over you, it sounds like you are the one that does all the work and he needs you just as much as you need the job!
Threaten to report him to everyone especially revenue! Thats the only to get through to a bully like him.

jobucks

Hi OP,

Did you ever post those forms off to Nera?