stopping at speed

artful_codger

folks, do you have any tips on correct procedures for coming to a stop at speed ? obviously you just cycle down the gears and use the gears to stop... but sometimes there just isn't enough time to cycle down them in time and i end up breaking hard.
A second question - is there a recommended speed at which you should approach traffic lights at? if i go too fast then i risk not being able to stop if they go amber/red, but if i slow down when approaching a traffic light i can be causing a nuisance to drivers behind.

brian076

When stopping in the normal manner you should not be coming down through the gears, you should just stop in the gear that you're in. So if you're approaching traffic lights that are red and you're in 4th gear just brake progressively and before you stop press down the clutch.

Years ago everyone was taught to come down the gears when stopping, but in those days the braking system on cars wasn't as efficient as it is today and you needed to use engine braking to help you stop, but that's no longer the case, and now you can stop in any gear.

The other problem about coming down through the gears is that you're liable to coast, ie change from 4th to 3rd, keep the clutch in then change to 2nd, so in effect you've never gone into 3rd because you haven't released the clutch.
When approaching traffic lights that have been green for some time, ease off the gas a little and anticipate them changing to amber, if they do as you approach you should be able to stop comfortably without braking hard.

Always remember when approaching any hazard, such as a traffic light to check your rear view mirror beforehand, and if there's a vehicle close behind slow down even more, so that if you do have to stop, you'll be doing it gently and avoid the risk of someone going into the back of you.

biko

Being a nuisance is a worry for any new driver but that what the L sign is there for, to show other motorists that you are new to this and they should give you leeway.
It's better in my opinion to drive a little bit slow when a new driver, particularly in an urban area. Experienced drivers can anticipate better what's going to happen at any given moment because they been through it a number of times before. We've seen kids jump off the side walk/drivers looking the other direction when pulling out/...

Pedro K

brian076 wrote: »

When stopping in the normal manner you should not be coming down through the gears, you should just stop in the gear that you're in. So if you're approaching traffic lights that are red and you're in 4th gear just brake progressively and before you stop press down the clutch.

Years ago everyone was taught to come down the gears when stopping, but in those days the braking system on cars wasn't as efficient as it is today and you needed to use engine braking to help you stop, but that's no longer the case, and now you can stop in any gear.

The other problem about coming down through the gears is that you're liable to coast, ie change from 4th to 3rd, keep the clutch in then change to 2nd, so in effect you've never gone into 3rd because you haven't released the clutch.

I wouldn't consider this to be good practise at all...
OP, I think you should get used to coming down the gears as it is a safer way to slow down in snowy conditions than putting your foot straight on the brake. You do this, and you will skid.
Get used to using your clutch and gears.

As for braking to a stop in fourth. Surely you would be more liable to coast using this method. Because as you come to a slow speed near your stop the car would be in fourth and would start to shudder because the gear is way too high for a low speed. Continue to brake and you would cut out. So you'd have to press the clutch, which means you're coasting to a stop.

DriveSkill

Pedro K wrote: »

I wouldn't consider this to be good practise at all...
OP, I think you should get used to coming down the gears as it is a safer way to slow down in snowy conditions than putting your foot straight on the brake. You do this, and you will skid.
Get used to using your clutch and gears.

Pedro K, I disagree here, the advice given by Brian076 is 'good practice' and is the recommended way of driving smoothly, it also reduces wear and tear on the gears by reducing unnecessary gear changes.


As regards driving in snow, well that is a different situation entirely. You should always adjust your driving to the road and weather conditions - i.e. leave larger gaps for longer braking distances in wet, gently braking and accelleration in icy conditions or snow. There is no 'one solution fits all'.

Pedro K wrote: »

As for braking to a stop in fourth. Surely you would be more liable to coast using this method. Because as you come to a slow speed near your stop the car would be in fourth and would start to shudder because the gear is way too high for a low speed. Continue to brake and you would cut out. So you'd have to press the clutch, which means you're coasting to a stop.

You will not coast if you do this correctly, the car should not shudder - you should have the clutch in before that point. The key thing is to judge the braking point and distance - you dont want to be 100m away from the STOP sign and at 15km/hr - in that case you will need to change gear. However if you do it correctly you will not coast.

Permabear

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hobochris

donegalfella wrote: »

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Maybe its a habit I have from driving trucks but I agree with Pedro. Using just your brakes will wear the pads down faster and will have you coasting.

You can preach all you want about perception,but on Irish roads some need will always arise to stop quick from speed (a lot of the time this need is caused by careless driving of others) & Using your gears to slow has a huge benefit as apposed to using brakes alone.

Permabear

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DriveSkill

I dont think the arguement that just using your brakes will cause the brake pads to wear out earlier is a good enough reason for not employing this technique. Brake pads cost in the 10's of euro to replace whereas a gearbox is in the 1000's of Euro.

In any case I'm not advising that people should 'SLAM ON' the brakes everytime they want to stop. You should be anticipating the traffic and road ahead and adjusting your speed accordingly which may just mean easing off the accelerator. There is an advanced driving technique called 'acceleration sense' which is something that should be practiced by everyone. The basic principle is you should be able to adjust your speed for bends, slowing traffic etc just by easing back on the accelerator.

On an aside as this is a 'learning to drive' forum and the majority of people are primarily interested in passing the test it should pointed out that either technique (stopping in any gear v's coming down the gears) is acceptable for the driving test - you just need to ensure you come down the gears correctly and not coast.

TwoShedsJackson

There's no need to go down through the gears on a modern car.

As for the test, I braked and stopped in fourth and third gear with no negative marks so that is definitely not 'frowned upon' nowadays.

brian076

DriveSkill wrote: »

There is an advanced driving technique called 'acceleration sense' which is something that should be practiced by everyone. The basic principle is you should not be able to adjust your speed for bends, slowing traffic etc just by easing back on the accelerator.

I don't think the "not" should be in the sentence. Just to clarify: Acceleration sense refers to the drivers ability to anticipate the changing conditions ahead, and to vary the pressure on the gas pedal such that the vehicle slows down to reach the correct speed for the hazard, without the brakes ever being used.
The potential problem however is that the vehicle effectively changes speed without ever signaling to another driver that it is doing so,ie there's no brake lights, so you should be careful about using acceleration sense where a brake light signal would be useful to another road user.

DriveSkill

Thanks Brian for pointing out the typo in my earlier post - I've corrected it! Dangerous when it ends up as the complete opposite of what I meant :pac:

Burtchaell

If they are both accepted methods for passing your test then I dont see the point to the controversy. Do whichever you feel more comfortable with! Also removing your foot from the accelerator is a perfectly acceptable way to slow down. Hence the idea of the exhaust brake on diesel engines! But if you are downshifting know that it takes more to perfect the optimal time to shift!

Celtic Mech

DriveSkill wrote: »

I dont think the arguement that just using your brakes will cause the brake pads to wear out earlier is a good enough reason for not employing this technique. Brake pads cost in the 10's of euro to replace whereas a gearbox is in the 1000's of Euro.

Agree 100%. Its also not necessary in modern cars to emply Engine Braking techniques instead of Normal Braking. As pointed out above...what are we talking...maybe 80ish euro to replace front or back brake pads. Id happily get them replaced instead of replacing a gearbox which will cost upwards of a grand in a lot of cases.
Dont be afraid of using your Brakes to slow down..that is their primary purpose, They will of course wear down over time but as said earlier, 80ish quid will get a new pair and labor costs to replace em.

brian076

Burtchaell wrote: »

If they are both accepted methods for passing your test then I dont see the point to the controversy. Do whichever you feel more comfortable with! Also removing your foot from the accelerator is a perfectly acceptable way to slow down. Hence the idea of the exhaust brake on diesel engines! But if you are downshifting know that it takes more to perfect the optimal time to shift!

I don't think there's any controversy, the OP raised the point about "cycling down the gears" and I just pointed out that it wasn't necessary.

This doesn't mean that it's wrong, and Driveskill was right in pointing out that either method is acceptable for test purposes. However from my experience I've always found that people who come down thru the gears tend to coast, ie they think they're coming down thru the gears but they actually keep the clutch pressed in thru each gear change.

Wishbone Ash

hobochris wrote: »

Maybe its a habit I have from driving trucks but I agree with Pedro. Using just your brakes will wear the pads down faster and will have you coasting.

You can preach all you want about perception,but on Irish roads some need will always arise to stop quick from speed (a lot of the time this need is caused by careless driving of others) & Using your gears to slow has a huge benefit as apposed to using brakes alone.

You obviously don't drive an artic. The first thing I learned was that it must only be slowed down using the brakes as the trailer is also braked and the trailer's brakes activate a split second before those in the tractor unit.

Try slowing an artic using the gears only and you risk jack knifing it as the gears will only slow the tractor.

The only time that it may be appropriate to use the gearbox would be on a very long decent where there is no sudden stoppage required but the truck may be held back a bit by being in gear to avoid burning out the brake pads or depleting the air.

I don't understand this saving the brake pad nonsense. Regardless of whether the truck in a rigid or artic, I'd prefer to replace the brake pads than the gearbox or transmission.

hobochris

Wishbone Ash wrote: »

You obviously don't drive an artic. The first thing I learned was that it must only be slowed down using the brakes as the trailer is also braked and the trailer's brakes activate a split second before those in the tractor unit.

Try slowing an artic using the gears only and you risk jack knifing it as the gears will only slow the tractor.

The only time that it may be appropriate to use the gearbox would be on a very long decent where there is no sudden stoppage required but the truck may be held back a bit by being in gear to avoid burning out the brake pads or depleting the air.

I don't understand this saving the brake pad nonsense. Regardless of whether the truck in a rigid or artic, I'd prefer to replace the brake pads than the gearbox or transmission.

Your right I didn't drive arctics I was referring to C class vehicles. I know that as you said you have to reduce velocity on the trailler first to avoid jackknifing. If you have to stop In a hurry you need more then just your brakes.

Personally I believe engine slowing should be tought was standard so that people are more comfortable with the gears, this in turn will eliminate the need for replacing gear boxes when slowing with the gears.

if your familar with the gear ratio's both up and down then there shouldn't be any damage to the gears.

also using the gears is good practice should a driver ever be in a situation where the brakes fail.

rowanh

I have no idea about trucks but in a car you should not use the gears to slow down, im not a mechanic but i think its bad for the more than just the gearbox but more than that its not as effective as brakes at all. Heal and toe is something worth learning to make down changing smoother especially if you want to change down two or three gears at a time. Im not sure what they would think of it in the driving test though.

Burtchaell

Heres the advantages to the 2 as raised above and some I added

Dowshifting Advantages:
You are always in the correct gear for the speed you are travelling
Can accelerate away quickly if needed
Gives max possible braking assisstance
Wastes feul by low revving
Brake pads, fluid etc. last longer

Downshifting Disadvantages:
Causes wear and tear on the gearbox and clutch
Risk of freewheeling
Wastes fuel by higher revving
Hard to perfect, can be jerky

Comprehensive:D, if anyone wants to add some feel free...

Cuddlesworth

hobochris wrote: »

If you have to stop In a hurry you need more then just your brakes.

How exactly does that work? You must have really bad brakes if you think the engine helps when under really heavy braking.

hobochris wrote: »

also using the gears is good practice should a driver ever be in a situation where the brakes fail.

Possibly true but very unlikely. Time would be better spent teaching people how to drive in bad conditions, snow ice etc then teaching in the event of brake failure.

Pedro K

Burtchaell wrote: »

Heres the advantages to the 2 as raised above and some I added

Dowshifting Advantages:
You are always in the correct gear for the speed you are travelling
Can accelerate away quickly if needed
Gives max possible braking assisstance
Wastes feul by low revving
Brake pads, fluid etc. last longer

Downshifting Disadvantages:
Causes wear and tear on the gearbox and clutch
Risk of freewheeling
Wastes fuel by higher revving
Hard to perfect, can be jerky

Comprehensive:D, if anyone wants to add some feel free...

With regards to the disadvantages, there's only really a risk of free wheeling if you can't downshift properly. I never free wheel but always downshift.
(Just because it's what I was told to do)

Also, I don't understand, in your down shifting advantages you have
"Wastes feul by low revving"...

Celtic Mech

Burtchaell wrote: »

Heres the advantages to the 2 as raised above and some I added

Brake pads, fluid etc. last longer

Just to point out, Regardless of engine braking or conventional braking...Brake Fluid wont be used! Its a closed system..i.e. the fluid is not physically used up at each brake application. The Brake Fluid is a Hydraulic medium that transferres effort to allow give brake pads the pressure required against the brake disk, thus slowing down.

brian076

Pedro K wrote: »

With regards to the disadvantages, there's only really a risk of free wheeling if you can't downshift properly. I never free wheel but always downshift.
(Just because it's what I was told to do)

If that's the way you were taught to stop, that's fine, it's the way I was taught as well because a few years ago when braking systems weren't as good as they are today, you needed engine braking to help you stop.

But it's not the way people are taught to drive nowadays by any instructor worth his salt, it's just not necessary, but as previously mentioned it makes no difference when doing your test which method you use, once you do it properly.

the_syco

I've been told to use the break only, and at the junction, change to 1st when I'm stopped, etc. The mother thinks I should cycle down through the gears, which I find is a bad habit, as the only way to cycle down the gears is to coast. Okay, it does slow me down, but I find using the break would do a better job, and I'm in more control of the car. If I do get down to a low speed, I then will change down to a suitable gear, to ensure I'm still in control of the car.

Burtchaell

the_syco wrote: »

as the only way to cycle down the gears is to coast.

Not true at all. If its done correctly!

TwoShedsJackson

the_syco wrote: »

I've been told to use the break only, and at the junction, change to 1st when I'm stopped, etc. The mother thinks I should cycle down through the gears, which I find is a bad habit, as the only way to cycle down the gears is to coast. Okay, it does slow me down, but I find using the break would do a better job, and I'm in more control of the car. If I do get down to a low speed, I then will change down to a suitable gear, to ensure I'm still in control of the car.

Your mother is presumably old enough to be from the times when cycling down through the gears did help because brakes weren't as good back in the day etc. Not required in a modern car.

the_syco

Burtchaell wrote: »

Not true at all. If its done correctly!

If done over a long distance, whereby you change from 4th to 3rd, drive a bit, then down to 2nd, sure, it's ok, but I see it as pointless cycling down in quick succession, if, for example, you're coming to a sharp bend, or a red light.

If I'm in 3rd, and a sharp bend is coming up, and I clutch, go into 2nd, I'll be coasting for a bit, but if I just apply some break (and then change if needed), I find I have more control.

Alanstrainor

the_syco wrote: »

If I'm in 3rd, and a sharp bend is coming up, and I clutch, go into 2nd, I'll be coasting for a bit.

If you're coming to a bend you should allow enough time to, clutch in, change to 2nd, release clutch, enter the corner and leave. You shouldn't be leaving things late enough to think there's no time to change down. That's a totally different situation to the one at hand, as you're not coming to a stop.

Permabear

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challengemaster

brian076 wrote: »

But it's not the way people are taught to drive nowadays by any instructor worth his salt

That so? I was taught to always stop the car in 2nd gear if possible, and can downshift properly. I thought my instructor was great tbh, and I feel I've much more control due to it.

the_syco wrote: »

change to 1st when I'm stopped

Technically you should be in neutral with the handbrake on while stopped, unless ready to move off again. Keeping the clutch depressed while stopped isn't a bit helpful for long drives, and I don't think testers like it either.

cycle down through the gears, which I find is a bad habit

Hardly...

as the only way to cycle down the gears is to coast.

You're doing it wrong.

the_syco wrote: »

If done over a long distance, whereby you change from 4th to 3rd, drive a bit, then down to 2nd, sure, it's ok, but I see it as pointless cycling down in quick succession, if, for example, you're coming to a sharp bend, or a red light.

If I'm in 3rd, and a sharp bend is coming up, and I clutch, go into 2nd, I'll be coasting for a bit, but if I just apply some break (and then change if needed), I find I have more control.

You know, cars don't have to follow simple arithmethic sequence while downshifting. You can change straight from 4th to 2nd, 5th to 3rd, etc etc as required. Habit I picked up from watching both my parents do it... but, it works.

If I'm in 5th gear and there's a roundabout about 150-100m ahead, I'll come off the accelerator and gently brake until I can change into 3rd. Then I'll do a little more and go into 2nd so I can easily stop if there's traffic, or, continue if the way is free to do so.

Or, I'll come off the accelerator and let the car slow down gradually by itself, and downshift normally(gear by gear) with a small bit of braking when needed.

Either works.. and I'm in 2nd by the time I get to the roundabout either way. But, going down 2 gears at once can work for very short distances too. I've been in the car with my parents when the car went from 100km/h to 0km/h in the less than the length of a median

If there's a sharp bend coming up and you have to brake to get around it as you're going too fast in the first place, or in the wrong gear... you're doing something wrong to begin with. Shouldn't ever need to coast around a corner. You should be in the right gear a bit before hand. IMO you're showing that you're not fully in control of the vehicle there...

brian076

challengemaster wrote: »

That so? I was taught to always stop the car in 2nd gear if possible, and can downshift properly. I thought my instructor was great tbh, and I feel I've much more control due to it.

Maybe you feel in more control but it's just not necessary, why complicate matters for others, it doesn't give you more control

Skipping 2 gears can work at anytime. When approaching the roundabout why don't you just wait until you get closer to it before deciding what gear to be in. There's no need to go from 5th to 3rd then 2nd. if you think you're going to need 2nd wait & skip from 5th to 2nd.

Remember this is a Learning to Drive Forum so try not to give bad advice to people less experienced than yourself. If you think downshifting is a good idea take an advanced driving course, and see what the experts think.

challengemaster

brian076 wrote: »

bad advice

Down off the high horse now...

Wishbone Ash

challengemaster wrote: »

Down off the high horse now...

Steady on! - he's a driving instructor.

Permabear

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brian076

challengemaster wrote: »

Down off the high horse now...

Sorry I didn't mean for my post to come across like that but having re-read it I can see how you got that impression.

As I said previously it doesn't really matter how you come to a stop once you do it properly. Most learners have a difficulty in downshifting and it does lead to coasting so that's why it's recommended that you don't follow this practice.

As regards taking an advanced driving course, everyone with a full licence should do it, it'd open your eyes.

challengemaster

brian076 wrote: »

As regards taking an advanced driving course, everyone with a full licence should do it, it'd open your eyes.

Soon as I get the full then and don't have the LC to worry about...

biko

One (braking) doesn't exclude the other (engine braking). I use a combination of both when approaching a red light/stop sign.

fender1

As an advanced driver with the I.A.M. and R.o.S.P.A.(gold)
I can tell you all that brian067 has got it spot on :cool: :cool:

timmywex

So basically to recap

It doesnt matter what way you do it, both have their own disadvantages and advantages!

Either is ok in the driving test as long as you dont coast or let the car struggle!

brian076

Yes that's right, for the purpose of the driving test you can use either method to stop, but the best way to stop is to brake and stop in the gear you're in without downshifting.

Tar.Aldarion

Oh that's good to hear, I'm just learning from my father atm, both he and my instructor( of 2 lessons), got me to downshift and I definitely think I coast when stopping. I have driven in three different cars now and I am inconsistent, some I do, some I don't. I found the diesal car so easy to drive, never cut out, then I moved to a nissan micra, heh. In that I can't even change from 2nd to 3rd easily, keeps getting stuck and I drift, needs a bit of practise. Life would be easier without downshifting anyway, is my point!

Burtchaell

Is it better to downshift a HGV/LGV (not articulated).

This seems to suggest you should
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=um1TZW2Fbuc

daddymick66

Pedro K wrote: »

I wouldn't consider this to be good practise at all...
OP, I think you should get used to coming down the gears as it is a safer way to slow down in snowy conditions than putting your foot straight on the brake. You do this, and you will skid.
Get used to using your clutch and gears.

As for braking to a stop in fourth. Surely you would be more liable to coast using this method. Because as you come to a slow speed near your stop the car would be in fourth and would start to shudder because the gear is way too high for a low speed. Continue to brake and you would cut out. So you'd have to press the clutch, which means you're coasting to a stop.

all advanced driving courses now teach that there is no need to gear down to stop as vehichle braking systems are far more efficient nowadays, ive done most of the advanced courses in the emergency services and im a ADI driving instructor!!!!!