Suburban windmills?

luckat

Is it possible to stick up a little windmill in the garden of your suburban house and get wind power and feed what you don't use back into the grid? Or is this just an insane unrealistic dream?

If (a), is there anyone who does it, and where can I go and look at it and ask questions?

brianthebard

Do you mean something like what David Cameron bought for show? Its possible, but most don't produce enough energy to offset the energy used in building them, and are of little use to the consumer. That's what I've read at least. Also there afaik no option to sell back to the grid atm, although that was supposed to change as part of the Greens programme for government....I might be out of date with this info though.

Cheeble

Is it possible to stick up a little windmill in the garden of your suburban house and get wind power and feed what you don't use back into the grid?

No.

Or is this just an insane unrealistic dream?

Yes.

Ok, maybe that's a bit blunt. Yes it's possible, but in an urban setting, independent trials have shown that you're likely to generate about ten euro worth of electricity a year. So, whilst it's possible, it's not worth it.

You need a good, windy site, that means a cliff near the sea, or an unobstructed hilltop.

In an urban setting, you'd be much better to channel the investment into demand reduction measures.

luckat

Cheeble wrote: »

In an urban setting, you'd be much better to channel the investment into demand reduction measures.

What does that mean, please, Cheeble?

Do you mean something like what David Cameron bought for show?

(Sorry brianthebard, I haven't worked out how to do that multi-quote thing.) David Cameron? He's some English politician? He bought one?

baldieman

I'm afraid cheeble's spot on.
What you need is to take a good look at your property to see what it's best potential is. Different homes have different advantages and disadvantages for energy savings. You may need an energy expert to take a look.

brianthebard

luckat wrote: »

(Sorry brianthebard, I haven't worked out how to do that multi-quote thing.) David Cameron? He's some English politician? He bought one?

Yes indeed, that's the one. He bought one for his house as a pr stunt, it does feck all. There was a lot of press about their use and merits at the time though. you could do a google of cameron and windmill you might find some interesting articles.

Cheeble

The David Cameron connection:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/jan/13/wind-turbine-efficiency-postlethwaite-cameron

What did I mean by...

...channel the investment into demand reduction measures.

?

Good question.
A wind turbine is potentially a big financial investment. Even a small grid connected turbine is likely to cost upwards from Euro1,500, and a 6kW machine anything from around 12,000 to 40,000 depending on site factors. Spending 1500+ on improving insulation, draftproofing, a more efficient boiler, low energy bulbs (I know, they're controversial too), even getting the car tuned up regularly will probably make a much bigger dent in both your energy bills, and your carbon footprint.

btw I'm not at all against small wind turbines: I'm a supporter of them and I've worked in the wind industry for many a long year. There are good reasons for putting one at the end of your garden, for example it's a highly visible statement of committment to a particular lifestyle, but on the specific question of feeding power back into the grid in an urban setting, they're not that great.

Cheeble-eers

luckat

Thanks for the answers; while I'd like to see millions of little wind turbines feeding the grid, if it's not a feasible energy source I'll hold off until Cheeble or someone invents a better one.

kravist

Cheeble wrote: »

The David Cameron connection:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/jan/13/wind-turbine-efficiency-postlethwaite-cameron

I'm a supporter of them and I've worked in the wind industry for many a long year. There are good reasons for putting one at the end of your garden, for example it's a highly visible statement of committment to a particular lifestyle, but on the specific question of feeding power back into the grid in an urban setting, they're not that great.

Cheeble-eers

SO, in a rural setting with good average wind speed, what would you say are the best options in terms of makes/models etc?
thanks

paddyc

cheeble and co


do you think its possible to heat your hot water "The other is a 24 v/48v which can be connected to a water heating element to reduce your heating bills" to a reasonable extent using a 1KW wind turbine as detailed on this web site

http://www.greenenergy.ie/wind.html


where I live is at the top of a hill and extremely windy, have emailed him but no reply as of yet


thanks paddy













http://www.greenenergy.ie/wind.html

Cookie_Monster

luckat wrote: »

Thanks for the answers; while I'd like to see millions of little wind turbines feeding the grid, if it's not a feasible energy source I'll hold off until Cheeble or someone invents a better one.

I've always thouth this would be a great idea. Stick a turbine on the roof of every house in the country, along with solar panels (the PV aren't really up to spec yet) and allow all house to feed into the grid.

Surely this would create a dramatic source of power?
It's a pity that it will never be considered because there will always be someone to object on obstruction/ visual impact / blah blah etc...

luckat

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I've always thouth this would be a great idea. Stick a turbine on the roof of every house in the country, along with solar panels (the PV aren't really up to spec yet) and allow all house to feed into the grid.

Surely this would create a dramatic source of power?
It's a pity that it will never be considered because there will always be someone to object on obstruction/ visual impact / blah blah etc...

My thought exactly, Cookie Monster.

I don't think people would necessarily object - after all, I grew up in the waving rain forests of TV aerials, which disappeared when everyone went to cable, and have now been replaced by the flying saucers of satellite dishes.

Cheeble

SO, in a rural setting with good average wind speed, what would you say are the best options in terms of makes/models etc?
thanks

Hi,

Sorry to disappoint, but I'm going to sit on the fence. There are a few good ones out there, and a few not so good. Ask the supplier for the data which backs up their specified power curve, and ask them how they measured it. The good ones will be able to give you a pretty convincing answer and evidence of real measurements. If it's just a predicted curve, I'd say don't touch it with a soggy stick.

Cheeble-eers

BendiBus

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

It's a pity that it will never be considered because there will always be someone to object on obstruction/ visual impact / blah blah etc...

I thought domestic wind turbines were exempt from planning permission.

But regardless, and as pointed out above, if you've money to spend on an energy project, domestic wind turbines in an urban environment are not the way to go.

Húrin

seems pointless. better to insulate your attice and solar heat your water.

Cookie_Monster

BendiBus wrote: »

I thought domestic wind turbines were exempt from planning permission.

Aren't there distance from property border issues thoug

BendiBus wrote: »

But regardless, and as pointed out above, if you've money to spend on an energy project, domestic wind turbines in an urban environment are not the way to go.

But if you can get cheap mass produced small turbines that will bolt straight onto a chimney then surely a reduction in efficiency could be made up by sheer weight of numbers. There are 2000 houses in the estate where i live, thats a lot of turbines even if their individual contribution is quite small overall.

I think in a few years solar PV will be good enough and cheap enough to better turbine though. An entire roof worth of PV would generate a fair amount of leccy. Check this out: Solar Roof

BendiBus

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

But if you can get cheap mass produced small turbines[/URL]

It would depend on how cheap, how (in)efficient etc. compared to insulating the attic, replacing an old gas boiler and so on.

non-renewable energy saved per euro invested is the key measure.

There are 2000 houses in the estate where i live, thats a lot of turbines even if their individual contribution is quite small overall.

Would 2000 new gas boilers give a better return? Or 2000 wood chip boilers even?

Cookie_Monster

BendiBus wrote: »

It would depend on how cheap, how (in)efficient etc. compared to insulating the attic, replacing an old gas boiler and so on.

Could do both;)

fatherbuzcagney

would it be feasible and/or possible to mount wind turbines on top of the existing pylons crossing the countryside?

luckat

Insulating attics and using solar power are, of course, worthy and worthwhile.

But a flock of countrywide windmillettes would have an advantage over them - if they were ubiquitous and efficient (both fairly moot from the points made here, of course), they'd feed electricity back into the grid from every house at times, making for immense national savings.

BendiBus

luckat wrote: »

making for immense national savings.

at an equally immense cost. Better spent on almost any other green project.

robtri

luckat wrote: »

Insulating attics and using solar power are, of course, worthy and worthwhile.

But a flock of countrywide windmillettes would have an advantage over them - if they were ubiquitous and efficient (both fairly moot from the points made here, of course), they'd feed electricity back into the grid from every house at times, making for immense national savings.

See this won't work, for a starter the national grid could not cope with the massive fluctuations in power that doing this would cause,

if every house had these windmills, and during low peak usage, i.e the night the wind picks up and every one of these windmill started pumping virtually full power into the grid, it would be catastrophic to the national grid,

likewise when the wind drops for a couple of mins, the power intot he grid would drop down, and people around the country would loose power as the main power stations wouldn't be able to power up quick enough to compensate for these....

windmills on every house feeding the national grid is not a practical solution...

Cookie_Monster

robtri wrote: »

See this won't work, for a starter the national grid could not cope with the massive fluctuations in power that doing this would cause,

if every house had these windmills, and during low peak usage, i.e the night the wind picks up and every one of these windmill started pumping virtually full power into the grid, it would be catastrophic to the national grid,

likewise when the wind drops for a couple of mins, the power intot he grid would drop down, and people around the country would loose power as the main power stations wouldn't be able to power up quick enough to compensate for these....

windmills on every house feeding the national grid is not a practical solution...

hence the addition of high capacity capicitor to work in conjunction with them, making power available instantly if winds drop.

quentingargan

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

I've always thouth this would be a great idea. Stick a turbine on the roof of every house in the country, along with solar panels (the PV aren't really up to spec yet) and allow all house to feed into the grid.

Surely this would create a dramatic source of power?
It's a pity that it will never be considered because there will always be someone to object on obstruction/ visual impact / blah blah etc...

Even though a site may be windy, turbines actually need clean wind free of turbulance. The blade of a turbine isn't directly pushed by the wind - it is more like the wing of an airplane, or a sail on a boat where low pressure and high pressure areas cause the blade to move. In turbulent air, that simply doesn't happen cleanly.

We should remember though that in Ireland there are over 400,000 one-off houses and while they may be environmentally unsustainable in terms of public transport etc., many of them can produce their own electricity.

Suburban areas should perhaps sit and wait for Nanosolar et al to come up with their $1 per watt solar PVs to have a renewable source of electricity. :cool:

robtri

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

hence the addition of high capacity capicitor to work in conjunction with them, making power available instantly if winds drop.

any good links on that? I would be curious to read up on that...haven't heard of it being used like this before.

Cookie_Monster

robtri wrote: »

any good links on that? I would be curious to read up on that...haven't heard of it being used like this before.

No links but that is the entire point of a capacitor is it not? There's a thread on here discussing them. Clearly the tech to do this will develop to a commercial stage in a few years.

My gf works in a manufacturing plant and they have a bank of giant capacitors. Thier purpose is to store enough of a charge to power the plant for a short time in case of a power failure, as the deisel generators take a couple of minutes to get up and running. The plant uses a huge amount of power and many of the machine cannot tolerate the power supply being interupted without major resetting so this is an ideal solution. And unlike batteries they do not "leak" power as much (at all?)

gizmo555

Cheeble wrote: »

I'm not at all against small wind turbines: I'm a supporter of them and I've worked in the wind industry for many a long year. There are good reasons for putting one at the end of your garden, for example it's a highly visible statement of committment to a particular lifestyle

The suggestion that installing an expensive wind turbine as some kind of environmental fashion statement is a good idea is one of the daftest I've come across in a very long time.

Given that there are elections coming up, wouldn't a "Vote Green!" poster in your window be a lot cheaper and probably significantly more effective?

powerfarmer

My gf works in a manufacturing plant and they have a bank of giant capacitors. Thier purpose is to store enough of a charge to power the plant for a short time in case of a power failure, as the deisel generators take a
couple of minutes to get up and running. The plant uses a huge amount of power and many of the machine cannot tolerate the power supply being interupted without major resetting so this is an ideal solution. And unlike batteries they do not "leak" power as much (at all?)[/quote]


Banks of capacitors are (usually) used in industrial plants for power factor correction especially where you have large amounts of motors , not to store electricity. A UPS system can be used to provide temporary back up power before a genny kicks in but only for short periods and are basically just loads of large batteries connected together

PeteHeat

Hi,

B&Q brought out a simple easy to fit wind turbine it sold for around €2000.00 they ended up taking then all back because they could not perform.

Other companies have launched similar wind turbines which also failed to deliver, in most cases the companies were liquidated because they didn't have the cash flow of a company like B&Q.

Quentin has a lot of experience with wind turbines, his research is to be admired, I expect if a small system could work he would know about it.

Jim Martin

As I understand it, there are structural/safety issues with attaching wind turbines to chimneys, in fact, I don't think it's allowed at all in the UK!

Cheeble

gizmo555 wrote: »

Given that there are elections coming up, wouldn't a "Vote Green!" poster in your window be a lot cheaper and probably significantly more effective?

I agree.


In fact, we can apply this solutions to a lot of other problems:

• Famine in Africa? Put up a poster!
• Repression in China? Stick a leaflet in the window!
• Drug related violence in Central America? No problem, put up a poster!
• Oh, and just one window pane left to solve the energy crisis and global warming.

There. Now we've sorted that lot out, what shall we talk about?



Cheeble-eers