Q; Catholicism: Abortion v. Murder

The_Minister

Just a quick question for the Catholic buffs.

Abortion, and the facilitation of abortion result in automatic excommunication (I looked it up earlier in relation to the Brazil story).
Murder doesn't as far as I can see.

Why not?
Whats the difference, and why is abortion worse then murder?

JimiTime

The_Minister wrote: »

Just a quick question for the Catholic buffs.

Abortion, and the facilitation of abortion result in automatic excommunication (I looked it up earlier in relation to the Brazil story).
Murder doesn't as far as I can see.

Why not?
Whats the difference, and why is abortion worse then murder?

Thats interesting. I never knew it was automatic excommunication if you have an abortion. is that really true?

If it is, your point on murder is a good one if it does not carry the same consequence.

The_Minister

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/Abortio2.htm
Says it does there, and quotes canon law.

It struck me as weird, so this is why I'm asking.

jhegarty

The op is correct. Not sure of the reasons though.

The_Minister

The theory I had was that murder will never become socially acceptable, while abortion might, so a greater punishment is given for abortion.

But that comes from my hat.

robindch

The_Minister wrote: »

Whats the difference, and why is abortion worse then murder?

There's a plausible meme-based explanation for this curious asymmetry.

The_Minister

Appears that I was on track: http://www.ewtn.com/vexperts/showresult.asp?RecNum=409931&Forums=9&Experts=0&Days=2008&Author=&Keyword=abortion+excommunication&pgnu=1&groupnum=0&record_bookmark=2&ORDER_BY_TXT=ORDER+BY+ReplyDate+DESC&start_at=

Question:
"I know that a woman who has an abortion is automatically excommunicated; along with all those who help her procure the abortion. Is someone who commits a murder automatically excommunicated? If not, why not? Thanks "

Response by Robert J. Flummerfelt, J.C.L:

"Hi Donald,
My answer is speculative so please bear with me. My sense is that the lawgiver wanted to emphasize the extreme wrong that a person does and the most grave sin that is committed when an innocent life is terminated. Hence the penalty attached in canon law. Why not attach a latae sententiae excommunication to the crime of murder? Well, I think that civil society places a strong disincentive on murder and therefore civil society does it duty in teaching that murder is always wrong. Hence, there is no need to catechize the faithful about the grave immorality of murder - we already know it!

Plus civil law provides a just penalty for those who murder, it does not for those who procure abortions. These are just my thoughts on this.

Know that however there are many mitigating factors which can prevent a latae sententiae excommunication from applying to a woman who has an abortion. These mitigating factors are noted in canons 1321-1325."

philologos

I don't think excommunication has much use in encouraging moral values in society. Casting someone out of Catholic society doesn't seem to me to be a motivating factor to try and follow the rules of the church.

Handsome Bob

Very interesting question. The only explanation I can think of is perhaps the Church feels there is adequate punishment already for those found guilty of murder. Now, in the Church's view maybe they feel abortion is as bad as murder yet there is no "punishment" that can be put upon those who have abortions. So they use excommunication as their "punishment" for people who have abortions.

It's all speculation of course. Still, I'm probably wrong because it seems strange that they would give a murderer an opportunity to repent his sins, yet they take that same opportunity away from a person who aborts a baby.

It's very harsh considering the young girl was raped and doctors said it would be a risk to her health to give birth.

Soul Winner

The_Minister wrote: »

http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/Abortio2.htm
Says it does there, and quotes canon law.

It struck me as weird, so this is why I'm asking.

Hmmm...?

Abortion - Excommunication by the Catholic Church wrote:

A person who believes they have been excommunicated must refrain from Holy Communion until both absolution for the sin and absolution for the excommunication has been given.

Isn't partaking of the elements of holy communion supposed to be a recognition that what you are partaking of makes you worthy and gives you standing in the eyes of God? And that you don't need to be worthy in order to partake? If you were worthy in order to partake then you wouldn't need to partake. Strange???

Mickeroo

Thats interesting. Would it be because abortion isn't generally recognised as a crime outside the church law?

Does excommunication happen much these days?

JimiTime

The speculation about the murder being punished by society etc seems plausible as the reason alright. I can understand what they're trying to do, but I can't say I agree with it. I am against abortion, but I think in circumstances such as this 9 year old brazillian girl, there should be a degree of empathy and support. That does not have to translate into support for the abortion, but bloody hell, a 9 year old being raped and left with a child!!??!! The last thing they or the parent need is to be excommunicated. I still think essentially, the act of abortion is wrong (yes, even in this circumstance), however, we need to empathise rather than condemn. Essentially, this is a huge dilemma for anyone, and while I'm dead against abortion, if this was my 9 year old daughter who knows what I'd do. Chances are I'd probably be guilty of murder if you know what I mean. I have my ideals, but ideals don't always translate into the real world, even if they should. I certainly don't think God will excommunicating anyway.

PDN

Does anyone know if the stepfather who raped the girl got excommunicated or not?

Húrin

It's a pretty horrifying case, and this callous act of the Roman church bureaucracy is surely not helping anyone.

I'm pretty well against abortion too, but a nine year old girl cannot give birth without serious risk to her life.

The_Minister

PDN wrote: »

Does anyone know if the stepfather who raped the girl got excommunicated or not?

No, rape (like murder) is not an excommunicable (is that a word?) offense.
It's still a sin though.

Húrin wrote: »

It's a pretty horrifying case, and this callous act of the Roman church bureaucracy is surely not helping anyone.

I'm pretty well against abortion too, but a nine year old girl cannot give birth without serious risk to her life.

AFAIU its an automatic excommunication, so they didn't have any leeway.

Thomas_S_Hunterson

Surely judgment and punishment should be left to god, regardless of the act.

PDN

Sean_K wrote: »

Surely judgment and punishment should be left to god, regardless of the act.

Do you really believe that?

If so, then I guess you think it was OK for the Church not to judge or punish pedophile priests - leaving it to God?

postcynical

Soul Winner wrote: »

Isn't partaking of the elements of holy communion supposed to be a recognition that what you are partaking of makes you worthy and gives you standing in the eyes of God? And that you don't need to be worthy in order to partake? If you were worthy in order to partake then you wouldn't need to partake. Strange???

It's not too clear what you mean here, but the teaching of the RCC is that a person should not receive the Eucharist if they are in a state of mortal sin (i.e. aware of having deliberately and gravely offending God). To receive Christ, who we believe to be truly present sacramentally in the Eucharist, into such an unholy temple is sacrilege.

postcynical

JimiTime wrote: »

The speculation about the murder being punished by society etc seems plausible as the reason alright. I can understand what they're trying to do, but I can't say I agree with it. I am against abortion, but I think in circumstances such as this 9 year old brazillian girl, there should be a degree of empathy and support. That does not have to translate into support for the abortion, but bloody hell, a 9 year old being raped and left with a child!!??!! The last thing they or the parent need is to be excommunicated. I still think essentially, the act of abortion is wrong (yes, even in this circumstance), however, we need to empathise rather than condemn. Essentially, this is a huge dilemma for anyone, and while I'm dead against abortion, if this was my 9 year old daughter who knows what I'd do. Chances are I'd probably be guilty of murder if you know what I mean. I have my ideals, but ideals don't always translate into the real world, even if they should. I certainly don't think God will excommunicating anyway.

What a horrible case. From one of the links in another post (http://www.ewtn.com/expert/answers/Abortio2.htm) there is this section:

ewtn wrote:

NOTE WELL To actually incur the excommunication one must know that it is an excommunicable offense at the time of the abortion. Canon 1323 provides that the following do not incur a sanction, those who are not yet 16, are unaware of a law, do not advert to it or are in error about its scope, were forced or had an unforeseeable accident, acted out of grave fear, or who lacked the use of reason (except culpably, as by drunkenness).

postcynical

LZ5by5 wrote: »

Very interesting question. The only explanation I can think of is perhaps the Church feels there is adequate punishment already for those found guilty of murder. Now, in the Church's view maybe they feel abortion is as bad as murder yet there is no "punishment" that can be put upon those who have abortions. So they use excommunication as their "punishment" for people who have abortions.

It's all speculation of course. Still, I'm probably wrong because it seems strange that they would give a murderer an opportunity to repent his sins, yet they take that same opportunity away from a person who aborts a baby.

I'd agree with your speculation. However, the part in bold is addressed in the relevant catechism:

RCC catechism wrote:

2272 Formal cooperation in an abortion constitutes a grave offense. The Church attaches the canonical penalty of excommunication to this crime against human life. "A person who procures a completed abortion incurs excommunication latae sententiae,"76 "by the very commission of the offense,"77 and subject to the conditions provided by Canon Law.78 The Church does not thereby intend to restrict the scope of mercy. Rather, she makes clear the gravity of the crime committed, the irreparable harm done to the innocent who is put to death, as well as to the parents and the whole of society.

Available here: http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a5.htm#I