Establishing ownership of house - most cost effective way

old boy

how does one establish owenership of an old house roughly 130 years old,

antoinolachtnai

you want to establish who owns it?

or you want to establish yourself as owning it?

Two quite different questions!

old boy

i need to find out who the owner is.

godtabh

old boy wrote: »

i need to find out who the owner is.

Cant you check the deeds?

Victor

Is it occupied?

You could trying a search in the planning department or check the register of electors

godtabh

DOnt deeds have to be registered?

Carawaystick

most of the land in certain counties is land registered, while other counties a much larger proportion is registry of deeds.

registered land is easily checked, for a cost of cents per plot.

antoinolachtnai

Yes, sales of property have to be registered. There are two places it can be registered, the registry of deeds and the land registry. Land transactions can be lodged in either.

The two systems have very different operating procedures.

If it is in the Land Registry, everything is easy. If it's in the Registry of Deeds, it's trickier.

I am just guessing from limited facts, but if the property is old, and hasn't changed hands very much, it is probably in the registry of deeds.

Unless you have a lot of time on your hands, I would go with getting the searcher to try and find it for you.

Other places that might give a clue - as someone pointed out, the planning permission database in the local authority. Also, the valuation office records. Both of these will probably have fairly old information.

This is all assuming that the obvious possibility - walk up to the house and ask the occupant who the owner is - has been exhausted.

Local knowledge is worth tapping as well.

old boy

the occupier does not know, but would like to find out who the regestered owner is. (if there is one)

Quartet

old boy wrote: »

the occupier does not know, but would like to find out who the regestered owner is. (if there is one)

Is it a Squat by any chance?

Had a bunch of friends in this situation once. They had been there for quite a while, but unfortuanetly lost possesion as they could not prove ownership:eek:


Re checking land registry details for a specific house - this will not be as easy as stated. The LR Office is very carefull about giving out details on property - you will have to prove that your the owner etc before they will relaese current details on property - otherwise you would have people going around snooping ref property ownership and trying it on...

Hope this helps;)

old boy

no i do not live there, i have established that it has had only had one owner.

antoinolachtnai

Well, who do they pay the rent to?

old boy

they do not pay any rent, they have lived there rent free for 27 years.

Senna

How did they start to live in the house 27 years ago? Did they just find some abandoned house and move in?

giardiniera

if the house is in dublin then check the Thoms directory, they have all the old copies in the national library.
if its for squatters rights and the house is in registry of deeds and not land reg than they can only claim it for as long as they live they can not own it and pass it down to their family but if its in land reg they can. thats what my law lecturer said in col anyway

antoinolachtnai

Thom's lists occupiers, not owners (it's mostly based on the Valuation Office database from what I can see).

If it's in Dublin, you could also check the 1909 census for the crack (is online).

Although it is wise to do your research, adverse possession is a complicated area, and specialised legal advice should be sought.

artielange

I found it very easy to walk into the land registry office in waterford and for a small fee found out history of of past owners, and if it was freehold or not. they didnt care who I was or why I wanted the info

Sangre

Quartet wrote: »

Re checking land registry details for a specific house - this will not be as easy as stated. The LR Office is very carefull about giving out details on property - you will have to prove that your the owner etc before they will relaese current details on property - otherwise you would have people going around snooping ref property ownership and trying it on...

Hope this helps;)

How would you do a title search on a house if you had to be the owner to check it? The whole point of it is so you can check someone else's title before you buy it.

They could seek to a solicitor and go about the process of registering themselves as owners of the house due to adverse possession in the LR.

The_Conductor

If they have had vacant rent-free possession for 27 years, the current occupant is the owner of the property, under laws governing adverse possession. They need to apply to the high court to have deeds for the property generated in their name. You need to contact a reputable solicitor to research the deeds for you (they are crying out for work- so it shouldn't be too expensive).

S.

old boy

thank folks for all the replys, i will encourage them to visit a solicitor.

Eglinton

Senna wrote: »

How did they start to live in the house 27 years ago? Did they just find some abandoned house and move in?

I too, would like to know the answer to this. Was it deralict? Hard to believe someone in this property mad country has let a valuable asset like that go. Unless it was someone who died abroad with no family in the area perhaps.

Quartet

artielange wrote: »

I found it very easy to walk into the land registry office in waterford and for a small fee found out history of of past owners, and if it was freehold or not. they didnt care who I was or why I wanted the info

Yes but they will not give current details as I said before - This is do with data security. As I said otherwise you get allsorts trying it on.

Solicitors who do searches must be registered and pay significantly higher fees for these "active searches".

Solicitor sign confindentality agreements and have a duty of care to ascertian that the person who is looking for a property search has a valid reason for doing so. ie if someone is purchasing a property...

when you buy a property you will be only told that the property history is OK or Not - you will not be given all details.

gougers looking to find out vacant properties generally wouldn't be considered as valid interested parties!:rolleyes:

I asked the op was this a squat? This will have relevance to the Law of Adverse Possesion.

Squating (ie having no legal entitlement) will not give ownership rights!
Squating law is is very dif here compared to the UK

If they go down this route (ie notifying the relevant bodies and following deed discovery...) it may lead to the present occupiers being asked to pack their bags!

Be careful.....

antoinolachtnai

You are saying that the Registry Office won't give the name of the owner of a folio?

The land registry website says different:
http://www.landregistry.ie/eng/Land_Registry_Services/

There are plenty of things that can be said about adverse possession. For a selection, see the following - William Fry - http://www.williamfry.ie/article.asp?categoryID=7&articleID=1789

The Law Reform Commission has a paper. http://www.islr.ie/Reviews/2004/adverse-possession.php

The rights of squatters and the law on adverse possession are very complex. If you are effected by this issue, you should consult a solicitor. The OP is very wise to advise his friends to do this.

artielange

Quartet wrote: »

Yes but they will not give current details as I said before - This is do with data security. As I said otherwise you get allsorts trying it on.

Good point. Might be harder finding owner in urban setting but what I did after getting the owners name from Land Registry was drive to the village pub and ask if he knew Joe Smoe.........

Quartet

http://www.landregistry.ie/eng/Land_Registry_Services/

The instrument can only be inspected by the registered owner of the property, his personal representative and any person authorised by such persons or by an order of the court or by the Land Registration Rules 1972. Please note: Instruments are stored off-site and will not be available on the day of request. Click here for application form to inspect/copy of instrument which must be completed and forwarded to: Danny McArt, Keeper of Records, Chancery Street, Dublin 7. Ph: (01) 8048006
Any person entitled to inspect a document filed in the Registry may obtain a copy of it.
Click here for further information on Inspection of Documents

http://www.williamfry.ie/article.asp...articleID=1789

Although each case will be decided on its own facts, these new tests will make it very difficult for squatters to acquire rights, where the legal owner has taken any action to assert its rights over the property.

http://www.islr.ie/Reviews/2004/adverse-possession.php

The true owner, or titleholder, must not be in actual occupation of the property. He must either have been dispossessed or he must have discontinued possession, and possession must then have been taken up by another. As section 18 of the Statute of Limitations42 stipulates, mere abandonment or discontinued possession of the property by the true owner, is insufficient to start the limitation period running, it is necessary that occupation be taken by the person claiming possessory title. The Statute of Limitations will come into operation in two cases:43 first where the squatter deliberately takes possession of the land knowing it to belong to another and second where the squatter innocently encroaches upon land not knowing it belongs to another.44

By all means consult a solicitor, but this is what my "mates" did and actually lost possesion as a result!

old boy

it seems the place in question was
a) delerict when the occupier moved in
b) it belonged to a distant relative
c) he is apprenshive that it may have been transfered to a name sake of the first owner and he could end up homeless
d) he claims that he payed some of the last rent and rates due on it to the co. council when he moved in first, when the councils agent came to collect it. as far as he can remember it was for 3 years.

antoinolachtnai

It also says:

Land Registry Searches

Who is entitled to inspect documents?

Names Index, folio and map can be inspected by anyone on payment of the prescribed fee.

This is what the OP wanted to ascertain. He has no real need to look at the instrument at this stage.

Anyway, there is a good chance this is not registered land.

There is risk for this guy either way. If he claims adverse possession, there are some risks, if he doesn't, there are some risks too. That is why he needs a solicitor.

It does look like the guy has some sort of case for adverse possession to me. If he just wants to live in it until he dies, then maybe he can just sit there and if anyone tries to evict him, he can take adverse possession proceedings at that stage.

Someone's home is at stake, so it's definitely one for professional advice.

Quartet

Granted Antonilachtnai...

However it would appear that the OP friend knows most of what would be likely give in a folio (even if it registered)

it seems the place in question
it belonged to a distant relative
....it may have been transfered to a name sake

Now if it is really owned by someone esp in his family then where he invokes a search and publication of title it may get very nasty...

On the other hand as you said he could spend his days there without doing this. He could look at it as a bonus that he has lived in a propery Rent Free for 27 years (unlike the rest of the muggins who pay rent & mortgage;))

Leaving the morals of this issue aside, and knowing someone who went down this route, and lost then I can only advise that they be mindful of the huge pitfalls that the next going down this route can result in....

antoinolachtnai

How can it get nasty? He just wants to know what name is down as owning the property. What harm can that do?

Quartet

Remember the film "The Field"?

Ireland + Land + Family = :eek:

antoinolachtnai

Exactly, and maybe this guy wants to know if he needs to have his spade ready!

I think it makes sense for him to know where he stands. no one will know that he has checked (other than the clerk in the office, or the searcher)

Quartet

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Exactly, and maybe this guy wants to know if he needs to have his spade ready!

I think it makes sense for him to know where he stands. no one will know that he has checked (other than the clerk in the office, or the searcher)

Yup but they could end up digging a big hole instead....:rolleyes:

old boy

Quartet wrote: »

Granted Antonilachtnai...

However it would appear that the OP friend knows most of what would be likely give in a folio (even if it registered)



Now if it is really owned by someone esp in his family then where he invokes a search and publication of title it may get very nasty...

On the other hand as you said he could spend his days there without doing this. He could look at it as a bonus that he has lived in a propery Rent Free for 27 years (unlike the rest of the muggins who pay rent & mortgage;))

Leaving the morals of this issue aside, and knowing someone who went down this route, and lost then I can only advise that they be mindful of the huge pitfalls that the next going down this route can result in....

the place was delerict, 4 walls and a roof, no water or sewrage, esb in 1 room 1 light i plug, he has spent his lifetime repairing and updating this place.

old boy

ok folks the legal advise recieved is,
a)stay as he is, do not upset the apple tart,
b)if he can contact children of the relatives family ask them to sign off their claim,
c)if there is an effort to evict him he must be reimbursed for the works carried out since he took up residence.
he will now seek a second opinion on this advice, but he is happy with the advice especially (a) and (c),

antoinolachtnai

did he find out if the house was actually transferred into the name of a living person?

It is good that he is getting a second view. It would be interesting to get some views on whether, if push came to shove and someone tried to put him out, he would have a chance at adverse possession.

He would probably never get around to doing this, but it might be a bargaining chip. Also, if someone knows that they will eventually get the house, if they don't mess around, that might keep things out of court as well.

This is all a hypothetical debate though, if he doesn't need to own the house it will probably be as well to leave well enough alone.

Carawaystick

It'd be an idea to make sure the second opinion is not in any way connected to the other parties - or even the first opinion. sulduggery can be involved amoung m'lerned friends - not that I'm suggesting anything like it is though.

Quartet

I reckon the advice is good. I dont think that skulduggary is involved in that part. That would appear to be similar to what was involved in the case I refered to previously....

Quartet

old boy wrote: »

the place was delerict, 4 walls and a roof, no water or sewrage, esb in 1 room 1 light i plug, he has spent his lifetime repairing and updating this place.

Fair enough...

That said people who pay rent and mortgage spend considerable amounts on making / keeping their homes habitable.

It is a bonus when can get a house for free without paying any rent or mortgage for 27 years.

Did your friends ever encounter any problems from others knowing that someoneelse owned the property?

Hope they get a positive outcome anyway

old boy

about 20 years ago a son of the origional owner tried to evict him, he had lived outside the state for a lifetime, but the legal advice the guy got was he had to be reimburse the inhabitant, there are no living brothers or sisters of the originial owner alive, no sons or daughters either, there are many grandchildren alive of whom my friend is one, some in ireland some in england and some in the u.s. the youngest of them at a guess would be in their mid 40s.

antoinolachtnai

If they tried to evict him, failed and gave up, that could be very significant. It means that he asserted possession all that time ago and has not heard anything since. Presumably there are papers to prove this.

I think it would be pretty tough going to shift him now.

I think the advice at (b) should not be taken, or only with a lot of further advice. Asking for the thing to be signed off could seriously weaken the claim that he had asserted possession and was not challenged.

I suppose he will probably sit tight, but if does decide to do anything, this is turning into serious senior counsel stuff.

As Quartet pointed out, it is possible to weaken that taking action could make things worse rather than better.

Ste.phen

If i'm reading that correctly the man in question is living in his grandfather's house, and one of his uncles (or dad) tried to evict him 20 years ago but is now deceased.

Unless there's something else to suggest one of the other grandchildren will try to claim the house, he's probably fine to live out his days there. I doubt he'd be able to safely leave the house to anyone in his will due to the ambiguity about ownership, and that's probably the only reason to go to the effort of trying to be named the official owner...

Treora

Quartet wrote: »

http://www.landregistry.ie/eng/Land_Registry_Services/


The instrument can only be inspected by the registered owner of the property, his personal representative and any person authorised by such persons or by an order of the court or by the Land Registration Rules 1972.

True but it is only the name, address and folio that is needed. And the website in question states, directly above that paragraph,
"Land Registry Searches

Who is entitled to inspect documents?

Names Index, folio and map can be inspected by anyone on payment of the prescribed fee.
" :cool: