Battering rams

Odysseus

Just asking this question as a point of interest. I work in an Addiction Treatment Unit so a high proportion of my clients are in regular contact with the Garda. Over the past few months judging by the stories I'm being told there seems to now be a regular use of battering rams [maybe a different term is used] being used to gain access to houses during planned searches.

I have also noticed the effects of this when I'm out and about in certain parts of Dublin. I just wondering is this a relatively new practice or was I just not hearing much about it. Also some seem to be under the belife that they can claim for repairs. Any truth to this?

deadwood

Any form of cruelty to sheep, or any animal, is wrong.

TheNog

My station was recently issued with new door opening equipment. Some lads were sent on a course to use them too. Before that we used sledgehammers

As for payment of damages, not entirely sure but I reckon that if drugs were found in a house then no damages would be paid. At least I would hope not

Odysseus

TheNog wrote: »

My station was recently issued with new door opening equipment. Some lads were sent on a course to use them too. Before that we used sledgehammers

As for payment of damages, not entirely sure but I reckon that if drugs were found in a house then no damages would be paid. At least I would hope not

Some of mime think that may be the case, that they will get some form of payment. Its a difficult one, maybe its just one member of the family, son or boyfriend maybe.

Also if a payment is made if there is nothing found, you know yourself that can mean little, there just wasn't anyhthing there that time is some cases. I asking because I'm just sort of trying to work it out in my own head.

And of course I personally agree about no claim if illegal items are found.

Trojan911

Odysseus wrote: »

Just asking this question as a point of interest. I work in an Addiction Treatment Unit so a high proportion of my clients are in regular contact with the Garda. Over the past few months judging by the stories I'm being told there seems to now be a regular use of battering rams [maybe a different term is used] being used to gain access to houses during planned searches.

I have also noticed the effects of this when I'm out and about in certain parts of Dublin. I just wondering is this a relatively new practice or was I just not hearing much about it. Also some seem to be under the belife that they can claim for repairs. Any truth to this?

In London, they were called 'Enforcers' in my time. They were introduced as a protection measure for officers. One had to complete a manual handling course & then learn how to use them correctly as too many officers were injuring themselves 'booting' the doors in.

I was surprised to see officers using their boots to kick in doors in the Sunday World images on the thread "Sunday World Article". Not exactly portraying a professional image more a macho one. It would be deemed a H&S issue I thought. But hey, maybe Ireland will catch up with the UK one day....

As for repairs, well, most of the doors we blew in were council property so they billed the Met every time. Don't know about here but I would assume they would also.

JonAnderton

Trojan, don't forget...'The Gauntlets'!!!!!

Big leather mittens.... to protect your wee hands....

CLADA

The Nog has correctly answered the OP's question as regards payment of damages.

As for method of entry techniques, it would be naive to assume a staged photo of a door being kicked is the standard entry technique used by An Garda Siochana.

Any members who have been involved in early morning searches will have seen the enforcer, the suitcase, the door raider and the rabbits foot. ERU have a "hot breeching" capability that only CO19 have in the UK.

But hey, maybe the rest of the UK will catch up with us some day....

Trojan911

CLADA wrote: »

As for method of entry techniques, it would be naive to assume a staged photo of a door being kicked is the standard entry technique used by An Garda Siochana.

If it was a staged photo shoot, then surely the correct procedure, should have been shown?

It would show a professional image of AGS at work.

the locust

if one was to search a building for drugs. it would be fair to anticipate that suspected drug dealers would be unlikely to open the door to gardai or to flush/discard stuff.

Thus government legislation provides for the use of force in such instances, which is of course quite necessary. battering rams/the big key etc... are nothing new. Although hot/cold breeching are more specialist

cherrypicker555

Trojan911 wrote: »

In London, they were called 'Enforcers' in my time. They were introduced as a protection measure for officers. One had to complete a manual handling course & then learn how to use them correctly as too many officers were injuring themselves 'booting' the doors in.

I was surprised to see officers using their boots to kick in doors in the Sunday World images on the thread "Sunday World Article". Not exactly portraying a professional image more a macho one. It would be deemed a H&S issue I thought. But hey, maybe Ireland will catch up with the UK one day....

As for repairs, well, most of the doors we blew in were council property so they billed the Met every time. Don't know about here but I would assume they would also.

Well according to their trainers CO19 are gung ho, from what I have seen of the Garda expect more of the same.

"There is no assessment of physical fitness, no psychological profiling, nothing. It’s a major problem.”


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article567961.ece



One of the soldiers said: “When the tension starts to rise and the adrenaline is flowing, the ‘red mist’ seems to descend on armed police officers who become very trigger-happy. This has been shown time and again in training exercises.”

The second soldier said: “We thought that police firearms officers were far more concerned with their personal image, dressing in body armour and looking ‘gung ho’, rather than their professional capabilities. I’m not surprised at the number of mistakes over the years.

Trojan911

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

Well according to their trainers CO19 are gung ho, from what I have seen of the Garda expect more of the same.

One of the reasons I never applied for ARV's or any armed unit. Can't stand the gung ho image attached. (And there were a few chaps I knew who were armed that I would shake my head in disbelief & seriously say "How the hell did he get a gun"?) :eek:

JonAnderton

That article has been discussed on here before... Not going to go over it again. '19 are arrogant and well up themselves, but they've chilled a bit lately, espcially with the 'lower AFO's' like us cos they been superseeded by... the DPG ARV unit... The 'red Dragons'... However bad you think '19 are, multiply it by 12...

For those not in the job, here's Trojan911 modelling this years MoE kit



And the hoolie bar... for outward opening doors

ERU have a "hot breeching" capability that only CO19 have in the UK.

Does this mean they oil themselves up, put on the shades and chippendale themselves into the premises?

cherrypicker555

Hot breaching refers to using hatton rounds in pump action shotguns to take off door hinges and explosive entry.

Take into account the Uzis they use are actually intented for military close quarter combat at close range (the short stock weapon was designed for IDF paratroopers) and we are getting into John Wayne/Starsky and Hutch territory.

And as far as Im am aware the ERU do not get enough constant practice time to enable them to be efficient at explosive entry, high intensity armed Police units need to train a minimum of 1 in 14 days, half on the range, half practising drills. SAS rotation troop who are on stand by to use these techniques train 6 days a week, such is the variety of potential places of entry, from cinemas, to trains, to high rise flats, to planes etc, etc.

The ERU are lucky to train 3 times a year.

Other armed Garda one day a year on the range.

JonAnderton

On a serious note though,

Nina Mackay
Memorial

Important to all who 'do the door'...

JonAnderton

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

Hot breaching refers to using hatton rounds in pump action shotguns to take off door hinges and explosive entry.

Take into account the Uzis they use are actually intented for military close quarter combat at close range (the short stock weapon was designed for IDF paratroopers) and we are getting into John Wayne/Starsky and Hutch territory.

And as far as Im am aware the ERU do not get enough constant practice time to enable them to be efficient at explosive entry, high intensity armed Police units need to train a minimum of 1 in 14 days, half on the range, half practising drills.

The ERU are lucky to train 3 times a year.

Other armed Garda one day a year on the range.

Do regular divisonal armed gardai have any tactics input during their training/reclassing or is it all purley range work?

What do your reclassifications consist of?

(and the hot breaching joke was obiously lost... but it was a bad one, I know... and appologise..:D)

SFO, TST and ARV teams here and I'm sure the ERU there, do more entries day in day out, then the SAS. Not saying the SAS aren't the nuts, but they should be. And they have a few more toys in their box and different rules of engagement. Our boys and girls can't train six days a week cos their putting their skills into live practice

cherrypicker555

JonAnderton wrote: »

Do regular divisonal armed gardai have any tactics input during their training/reclassing or is it all purley range work?

(and the hot breaching joke was obiously lost... but it was a bad one, I know... and appologise

Not sure, I know for a fact ERU units get no tactical night training.

In the past Uzis were issued to uniformed Garda in emergency situations after 1 day of weapons training.

JonAnderton

I can understand if needs must a brief "Bullets go in here, they come out here when you press this..now don't shoot me or your own foot off" lesson and a range test to make sure they can shoot might be enough to make do until more qualified people arrive. But what about when they get to the scene... running to a wall, pointing your gun over the top is the basics, but theres a lot of other stuff to consider..

I'm in a full time armed OCU and we don't get nearly enough practice or training time... 19 get more for obvious reasons but poor borough AFO's.. not getting to handle the weapons on a daily basis and doing tacref for three days every year is no way near right

cherrypicker555

JonAnderton wrote: »

Do regular divisonal armed gardai have any tactics input during their training/reclassing or is it all purley range work?

What do your reclassifications consist of?

(and the hot breaching joke was obiously lost... but it was a bad one, I know... and appologise..:D)

SFO, TST and ARV teams here and I'm sure the ERU there, do more entries day in day out, then the SAS. Not saying the SAS aren't the nuts, but they should be. And they have a few more toys in their box and different rules of engagement. Our boys and girls can't train six days a week cos their putting their skills into live practice

Yes, but they authorised to use explosive entry, but not trained for many of the situations it might arise, so its poor practice.

As for SAS CT rotation troop, they are a rotation troop, who troopers serve with in between doing stuff like below, ie task force black against Al-Qaeda. Similar to what armed Police units do only in a more demanding theatre, rounding up armed suspects for rendition. Doing dozens of entries every day.


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article2461368.ece


Anyway lets keep to topic.

maglite

did the SAS just come in as a comparison to the fine boot of a garda?

JonAnderton

maglite wrote: »

did the SAS just come in as a comparison to the fine boot of a garda?

You know somehow, I think they did...

eroo

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

Hot breaching refers to using hatton rounds in pump action shotguns to take off door hinges and explosive entry.

Take into account the Uzis they use are actually intented for military close quarter combat at close range (the short stock weapon was designed for IDF paratroopers) and we are getting into John Wayne/Starsky and Hutch territory.

And as far as Im am aware the ERU do not get enough constant practice time to enable them to be efficient at explosive entry, high intensity armed Police units need to train a minimum of 1 in 14 days, half on the range, half practising drills. SAS rotation troop who are on stand by to use these techniques train 6 days a week, such is the variety of potential places of entry, from cinemas, to trains, to high rise flats, to planes etc, etc.

The ERU are lucky to train 3 times a year.

Other armed Garda one day a year on the range.

Who said or cares about the SAS or training for armed police units?? The OP's question has been answered, no need to start ridiculing units imo.

deadwood

JonAnderton wrote: »

That article has been discussed on here before... Not going to go over it again. '19 are arrogant and well up themselves, but they've chilled a bit lately, espcially with the 'lower AFO's' like us cos they been superseeded by... the DPG ARV unit... The 'red Dragons'... However bad you think '19 are, multiply it by 12...

For those not in the job, here's Trojan911 modelling this years MoE kit




Does this mean they oil themselves up, put on the shades and chippendale themselves into the premises?

Note the "if this door doesn't go in on the first go, i'm going to look a bit daft" expression.

I used to work with two beef-cakes on a unit we called Chip and Dale!

Eru

eroo wrote: »

Who said or cares about the SAS or training for armed police units?? The OP's question has been answered, no need to start ridiculing units imo.

Agreed in full.

Cherrypicker, whats your background to make such statements?

the locust

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

Uzis

Uzi's are severely outdated (1960's/ww2 technology)

Garda ERU/RSU have replaced thier UZI's for MP7's

(Which on a side note according to 'Future Weapons' have armour piercing capabilities of an assault rifle for engaging targets with body armour - bit of a concern for hostage/seige scenarios in say an apartment complex i'd of thought)

JonAnderton

the locust wrote: »

Uzi's are severely outdated (1960's/ww2 technology)

Garda ERU/RSU have replaced thier UZI's for MP7's

(Which on a side note according to 'Future Weapons' have armour piercing capabilities of an assault rifle for engaging targets with body armour - bit of a concern for hostage/seige scenarios in say an apartment complex i'd of thought)

Anyone i speak to who uses them loves them.. A great choice for a standardised force weapon
Small enough to be comfortable to carry in vehicles and when going through doors (on topicish) yet powerful enough for checkpoints/containments.

Unfortunatly i reckon we got at least a good 25 years left of the mp5 before my lot will consider splashing the cash.. Oh,and the over penatration factor of the 4.6mm round stated in the previous post scares the **** out of the management..theres still only a few G36's appearing..at least your lot had the brains and balls to go with it

cherrypicker555

JonAnderton wrote: »

Anyone i speak to who uses them loves them.. A great choice for a standardised force weapon
Small enough to be comfortable to carry in vehicles and when going through doors (on topicish) yet powerful enough for checkpoints/containments.

Unfortunatly i reckon we got at least a good 25 years left of the mp5 before my lot will consider splashing the cash.. Oh,and the over penatration factor of the 4.6mm round stated in the previous post scares the **** out of the management..theres still only a few G36's appearing..at least your lot had the brains and balls to go with it

How can a weapon (the Uzi) whos bolt system and short barrel makes innacurate over 35m be a good choice for an armed Police response unit, as stated it was originally designed for mechanised infantry and paras(CQB), hence the short barrel and stock.

Even the Israelis admit it was an innacurate but robust weapon.

It is not designed to "double tap", which is the proven method for armed Police units to exercise in discharging a weapon.

cushtac

He's talking about the MP7.

cherrypicker555

the locust wrote: »

Uzi's are severely outdated (1960's/ww2 technology)

Garda ERU/RSU have replaced thier UZI's for MP7's

(Which on a side note according to 'Future Weapons' have armour piercing capabilities of an assault rifle for engaging targets with body armour - bit of a concern for hostage/seige scenarios in say an apartment complex i'd of thought)

Which is why the MP7 was rejected by the CO19, the safest rounds for Police armed response units are Hollow-points, armour piercing rounds, which also go through walls are too potentially dangerous to use in a civilian environment.

If the ERU had used them in Athey in 91, many people would have died.

eroo

Eru wrote: »

Cherrypicker, whats your background to make such statements?

bump

Faheywitane

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

Well according to their trainers CO19 are gung ho, from what I have seen of the Garda expect more of the same.

"There is no assessment of physical fitness, no psychological profiling, nothing. It’s a major problem.”


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article567961.ece



One of the soldiers said: “When the tension starts to rise and the adrenaline is flowing, the ‘red mist’ seems to descend on armed police officers who become very trigger-happy. This has been shown time and again in training exercises.”

The second soldier said: “We thought that police firearms officers were far more concerned with their personal image, dressing in body armour and looking ‘gung ho’, rather than their professional capabilities. I’m not surprised at the number of mistakes over the years.

Well it could be said that specialized armed police units don't have
enough time to 'practice' as they are actually working and putting
skills into practice.
While physicality and fitness are important, armed
police officers don't need to TAB 30km with a 60kg load.
Armed police units and Military sf should not be compared
imo as the do completly different jobs.

As for the UZI comment, Id like to point out that the SAS weapons
were designed for the same purpose. The UZI has a single fire
mode, you don't always have to spray the room.

That point is moot now as the ERU are using the H&K MP7.

deadwood

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

How can a weapon (the Uzi) whos bolt system and short barrel makes innacurate over 35m be a good choice for an armed Police response unit, as stated it was originally designed for mechanised infantry and paras(CQB), hence the short barrel and stock.

Even the Israelis admit it was an innacurate but robust weapon.

It is not designed to "double tap", which is the proven method for armed Police units to exercise in discharging a weapon.

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

Which is why the MP7 was rejected by the CO19, the safest rounds for Police armed response units are Hollow-points, armour piercing rounds, which also go through walls are too potentially dangerous to use in a civilian environment.

If the ERU had used them in Athey in 91, many people would have died.