Here's a wild idea..

Kev_ps3

Why doesnt the goverment actually try and balance the books? If we dont have enough money we should cut spending, not increase taxes. We are spending like a rich country when we are actually pretty broke.

Kevster

I don't think you understand completely what is happening. Then again, neither do I. If the government just stopped spending, then the entire public service would break down. You'd get no water into your house, no waste would be collected, no roads/paths maintained, etc.; and public sector workers would not get paid. People on the dole would also not get any money.

ParkRunner

They should do a 'Martin Cahill' and rob back the billions they lodged into the banks. Let the insurance companies battle it out between themselves.

jimmmy

Kevster wrote: »

If the government just stopped spending, then the entire public service would break down. .

It would still be collecting taxes like vat, income tax, cgt etc

Kevster wrote: »

You'd get no water into your house, .

Rubbish

Kevster wrote: »

no waste would be collected, .

Many people pay for bin tags etc

Kevster wrote: »

no roads/paths maintained, etc.; .

Let road / car tax pay for that

Kevster wrote: »

and public sector workers would not get paid..

yahoo ! Twill happen sooner or later...then they will know what it will feel like

Kevster wrote: »

People on the dole would also not get any money.

They will get some from the tax the rest of us spend. I agree the goverment actually try and balace the books, as we dont have enough money we should cut spending, not increase taxes. As the OP says, we are spending like a rich country when we are actually pretty broke.

Kev_ps3

Kevster wrote: »

I don't think you understand completely what is happening. Then again, neither do I. If the government just stopped spending, then the entire public service would break down. You'd get no water into your house, no waste would be collected, no roads/paths maintained, etc.; and public sector workers would not get paid. People on the dole would also not get any money.

When I said stop spending I meant stop spending beyond our means.

gurramok

The OP said cuts, not stop spending completely.

Why won't it happen on a major scale as that's whats needed?

Answer = Unions.

Kev_ps3

Or how about instead of using tax-players money to bail out the banks that helped cause the problems use it to fill the gap in the short-term?
The people in power really need to be dragged out onto the street and shot.

ART6

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

Or how about instead of using tax-players money to bail out the banks that helped cause the problems use it to fill the gap in the short-term?
The people in power really need to be dragged out onto the street and shot.

That last sentence I have great sympathy with, but if the banks are not bailed out, thing of the consequences. If there are no banks, how do you pay your car tax and insurance, or your ESB or Bord Gáis bill, etc etc? Where do you lodge your pay cheque or pay the property tax and water rates that are on their merry way?

On second thoughts, setting aside the pay cheque for the moment, letting the banks go to the wall does have a certain appeal:D

Kev_ps3

ART6 wrote: »

That last sentence I have great sympathy with, but if the banks are not bailed out, thing of the consequences. If there are no banks, how do you pay your car tax and insurance, or your ESB or Bord Gáis bill, etc etc? Where do you lodge your pay cheque or pay the property tax and water rates that are on their merry way?

On second thoughts, setting aside the pay cheque for the moment, letting the banks go to the wall does have a certain appeal:D

I reject the propaganda that if we dont bailout the banks they will all fail. Think its scare-mongering. And even if it did happin wouldnt new banks take their place? Or even create a state run bank.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

TGPS

We have to balance the books and we can do it by either raising taxes or by borrowing.

Borrowing is simply deferred taxation (they have to be paid back somehow) so we might as well have the taxes now - they're coming one way or another. Let's get it over with and get on with our lives!

http://thisgruntledpublicservant.blogspot.com/

grahamo

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

ANARCHY!!!!!!

ART6

Kev_ps3 wrote: »

I reject the propaganda that if we dont bailout the banks they will all fail. Think its scare-mongering. And even if it did happin wouldnt new banks take their place? Or even create a state run bank.

New banks would require very high levels of investment to provide them with sufficient funds to be allowed to trade. Would the investors put their money into a new bank in a country where the others had been allowed to fail, resulting in a total loss to shareholders?

jimmmy

ART6 wrote: »

Would the investors put their money into a new bank in a country where the others had been allowed to fail, resulting in a total loss to shareholders?

Given we are spending like a rich country when we are actually pretty broke ( our politicians + public servants paid 40% more than the best of them are paid in USA, UK + Germany for example ) .... would the investors put their money into Ireland at all ?

ART6

jimmmy wrote: »

Given we are spending like a rich country when we are actually pretty broke ( our politicians + public servants paid 40% more than the best of them are paid in USA, UK + Germany for example ) .... would the investors put their money into Ireland at all ?

Good point. Maybe that's why the interest rates charged on government borrowing are higher than in most of the EU, together with the problem that our government doesn't seem to be able to think of any way out.

Sleepy

How many of you think you couldn't shave off a fair few million if handed the accounts for the running of the Dail and the power to impose change?

I'd be surprised if the 10 million required to pay for the HPV vaccines couldn't be found if we put controls on government spending on junkets, expenses and took a chainsaw to TD salaries...

jimmmy

Sleepy wrote: »

How many of you think you couldn't shave off a fair few million if handed the accounts for the running of the Dail and the power to impose change?

I'd be surprised if the 10 million required to pay for the HPV vaccines couldn't be found if we put controls on government spending on junkets, expenses and took a chainsaw to TD salaries...

Good point. Scrap the Seanad and cut back bigtime on the handouts / expenses incurred by our Presidents, ex Presidents and their hangers on. The country is in a serious financial situation.

SeanW

Agreed. Fortunately we do not have the option of running up massive defecits over the course of a number of years like what's going on the U.S.

So we're left with Tax, Cut and less options for Borrow. I don't believe a policy that only involves "Tax and Spend" is either practical or just. We need to consider seriously the need to reduce spending. A few ideas off the top of my head:

1. Get rid of the Seanad
2. Cut all TD/Minister etc salaries by 10% and tighten up on expenses. Ditto for some civil servants.
3. The HSE upon inception, hired a whole load of new middle managers and administrators. Restructre the HSE and sack any back office staff that are not required.
4. We currently subsidise internal flights ... WTF? We ought to stop that fast!
5. Face down the unions in the public service - breaking the trade union mafia in the public services is the only way we are ever going to get public services that are efficient and that work - one example is the Driver Testing service, where to clear the "backlog" (read, not enough test-capacity) the dept of transport hired SGS to "clear the backlog" (read, just bring test waiting times down temporarily so that the Minister could justifiably shaft Learner Drivers). I read a post in the Learning to Drive forum from an ex-SGS tester that they were getting paid substantially less than their RSA counterparts and doing significantly more tests per week. In short, we're paying twice over the odds for an RSA monopoly DTS that is barely functional. And of course with tightened rules/enforcement, L permit holders are completely, 100% defenceless.
   
   We need to seriously examine the public sector throughout for inefficiency, and stamp it out mercilessly where found.
6. Cut the dole - I'm not for picking on the weak, but if the country is broke, and savings need to be found, unemployment payments could be reduced slightly to save a few squid.
7. Consider ending free 3rd level fees for the very wealthy. Use their fees to balance the Exchequer figures and provide funding for poor people in 3rd level, and the colleges themselves.

Only then should raising taxes be considered, and then I would tend to prefer raising existing taxes rather than creating new ones.

jimmmy

Great post. Good point about how we currently subsidise internal flights ... You are right ...We ought to stop that fast!