[Article] Dublin rail commuters to get new carriages

IIMII

Irish Times, Tue, Mar 03, 2009
A FLEET OF new carriages is on order for rail passengers travelling from Dublin’s expanding commuter belt, it was announced yesterday.
Iarnród Éireann said it was on track to carry commuters from Dundalk, Longford and Kildare on the more comfortable fleet from the second half of 2011.
The 51 carriages, which are being built in Japan, will also serve passengers on the new Navan rail line when it opens.
Iarnród Éireann said while normal commuter trains were designed to have high capacity, with less seating and more standing room, some workers were making significantly longer trips since the traditional commuter belt expanded.
“If your commute is over 50 miles long, as is the case for Dundalk or Mullingar commuters, or over 75 miles long like Longford commuters, higher levels of comfort are important,” said the spokesman.
“This additional order of intercity railcars delivers that to the customers who probably spend more time with Iarnród Éireann than anyone else.
“This fleet is a huge success where it has been introduced already, and the comfort and reliability it delivers will be welcomed by all who benefit from this latest investment.”
The new fleet first entered service in late 2007 on the Sligo-Dublin line and is being rolled out across the intercity network.
The latest €140 million order will feature more seating on outer commuter routes, greater accessibility for mobility-impaired customers, and meet EU emission standards for new rail vehicles to be enforced in 2012.
Minister for Transport Noel Dempsey TD said the new order showed the Government’s commitment to the continued development of public transport even in these difficult economic times.
“We will continue with the significant capital investment in transport of the past decade.We are determined to prepare for the future, and to provide the public with fast, efficient, comfortable public transport alternatives.”
© 2009 The Irish Times

dcr22B

More seating = less standing room? This'll be bloody typical for those of us who live in North County Dublin, the extra few seats will go to the poor souls who commute from Dundalk and Drogheda (that's their choice, I'm not looking for an argument in posting this but I really see this introduction being disadvantageous to myself and others from our stations) whereas (as is the usual occurence) by the time they get to Rush/Lusk and Donabate, we'll be fighting over getting on the train Japanese style.

Can someone confirm to me if the new carriages have increased overall capacity because with their narrow access and single lane aisles rather than the wide standing areas at the double entry doors on the current Commuter sardine boxes?

KC61

I'd imagine that these sets will operate in semi-fast mode serving Dundalk and Drogheda only, rather than all stations from Drogheda.

They are identical to the existing fleet of Intercity railcars currently being rolled out and are longer than the commuter stock currently in use, hence the extra seating.

By introducing these trains on the Dundalk, Longford/Mullingar and Kildare routes this will displace some 29000 sets for use on Pace and perhaps additional Northern line services from Drogheda.

Either way it's a long way off, as the sets will not be delivered until the second half of 2011, which means entering service in 2012.

dcr22B

Are IE not supposed to be upgrading the signalling system in Connolly which would allow for more frequency on the Northern Line in 2009? Remember seeing it being mentionned a few years back.

positron

dcr22B wrote: »

This'll be bloody typical for those of us who live in North County Dublin, the extra few seats will go to the poor souls who commute from Dundalk and Drogheda (that's their choice, I'm not looking for an argument in posting this but I really see this introduction being disadvantageous to myself and others from our stations) whereas (as is the usual occurence) by the time they get to Rush/Lusk and Donabate, we'll be fighting over getting on the train Japanese style

Well, it was your choice to live in North couty Dublin!

Joking aside, IrishRail should try and provide same quality of service to everyone - ideal situation would be more trains (or carriages) closer to Dublin, and faster services with less stops for us long distance commuters (three or four tracks at stations for trains to pull into) who pay them serious money (2-3k a year). Someone getting in Donabate deserves to find at least standing room, and similarly, us long distance commuters deserves trains that that doesn’t stop five minutes every five miles.

It’s a shame IrishRail (or the nation) doesn't have the infrastructure and most importantly the will to provide this.

dcr22B

positron wrote: »

Well, it was your choice to live in North couty Dublin!

Touché

I think it's simply down to a lack of capacity as to why the Northern Line gets the short end of the stick. The Kildare project is easier to implement due to the greater availability of land (that's my take on it, some people may come back with other reasons).

paulm17781

dcr22B wrote: »

I think it's simply down to a lack of capacity as to why the Northern Line gets the short end of the stick. The Kildare project is easier to implement due to the greater availability of land (that's my take on it, some people may come back with other reasons).

That is pretty much it. The northern line is in a trench, it would have to be widened.

Run_to_da_hills

Less seats means more space for bicycles.

Judgement Day

As an aside, I assume these new railcars are being part-funded by the EU so why on earth on they being built in Japan?

paulm17781

Judgement Day wrote: »

As an aside, I assume these new railcars are being part-funded by the EU so why on earth on they being built in Japan?

Because it's cheaper?

IIMII

I had always presumed that with Maynooth line electrification, Interconnector etc, the displaced 29000s would end up serving Navan (either Nav-Clon or Nav-Drogh).. Hmmm

Sean9015

Judgement Day wrote: »

As an aside, I assume these new railcars are being part-funded by the EU so why on earth on they being built in Japan?

2 facetious reasons -

1 Because the EU insist on open, transparent, non-protectionist procurement in support of a free market
2 Because last time they bought European units (Alstom Darts), they were c**p

More seriously - I suspect it was an add-on option on the exisitng build contract, and from an operational viewpoint any reduction in the number of types of vehicle in use is welcome (Driver / artisan training, spares holdings etc)

KC61

Sean9015 wrote: »

More seriously - I suspect it was an add-on option on the exisitng build contract, and from an operational viewpoint any reduction in the number of types of vehicle in use is welcome (Driver / artisan training, spares holdings etc)

Exactly - why would you want to add another class of unit when you've got one already?

murphaph

IIMII wrote: »

I had always presumed that with Maynooth line electrification, Interconnector etc, the displaced 29000s would end up serving Navan (either Nav-Clon or Nav-Drogh).. Hmmm

Hmmmm indeed. I'd always presumed that too.

Victor

KC61 wrote: »

They are identical to the existing fleet of Intercity railcars currently being rolled out and are longer than the commuter stock currently in use, hence the extra seating.

I wonder if they are going to omit the luggage racks like they did on the Mark 3PP sets.

dereko1969

Judgement Day wrote: »

As an aside, I assume these new railcars are being part-funded by the EU so why on earth on they being built in Japan?

why would you assume they're being part-funded by the EU? they're being built in Korea.

Victor

Judgement Day wrote: »

As an aside, I assume these new railcars are being part-funded by the EU so why on earth on they being built in Japan?

The ERDF did provide about €30m for the first two batches. I don't know if they are contributing to the third and fourth batches.

As part of the WTO, Japanese companies can tender for state contracts here and EU companies can tender for state contracts in Japan. Best package wins.

dereko1969 wrote: »

they're being built in Korea.

While yes, the bulk of manufacture is in South Korea, I think final assembly is in Japan (although I'm not sure where the body is marrid to the bogies). The windows are French, who know where else the other parts come from.

murphaph

Victor wrote: »

(although I'm not sure where the body is marrid to the bogies)

That might not happen until the body and bogies are being unloaded at Dublin Port....though presumably they stick them together for basic testing in the far east?

P_1

One thing I have always wondered is why IE don't just order some double decker carriages. Surely that would help increase capacity during peak times

wayne2107

One thing I have always wondered is why IE don't just order some double decker carriages. Surely that would help increase capacity during peak times

A few hundred bridges and tunnells would put a stop to that.

L1011

pithater1 wrote: »

One thing I have always wondered is why IE don't just order some double decker carriages. Surely that would help increase capacity during peak times

Loading gauge. They wouldn't fit under DART catenary and they wouldn't fit under most bridges. For 'peak time' commuter services they would also have a longer dwell time at stations...

DWCommuter

More very old news that has been reissued to make things look like they are okay. But at least it keeps Boards.ie in business.:D

This order was first mentioned nearly 2 years ago or thereabouts. It was an option that I think Martin Cullen greenlit after the original order for these railcars.

So what?:rolleyes:

Judgement Day

dereko1969 wrote: »

why would you assume they're being part-funded by the EU? they're being built in Korea.

So what are you suggesting - that the South Koreans are going to supply them free!!!!:D

armada104

DWCommuter wrote: »

More very old news that has been reissued to make things look like they are okay. But at least it keeps Boards.ie in business.:D

This order was first mentioned nearly 2 years ago or thereabouts. It was an option that I think Martin Cullen greenlit after the original order for these railcars.

So what?:rolleyes:

These 51 are in addition to the 183. This is new, and has been mentioned here before in a thread about selective door opening. Not like you to miss it.

SeanW

Judgement Day wrote: »

As an aside, I assume these new railcars are being part-funded by the EU so why on earth on they being built in Japan?

Because they know how to make stuff in Japan? Be it Toyota cars, Taiyo Yuden blank CDs and DVDs, our 2800 class railcars and (partly Japanese) InterCity railcars, Made In Japan = Quality.

On the other hand look at the stuff we bought for the European mainland recently - DeDeitrich "Enterprise" sets that have been a maintenance nightmare, the Alstom DARTs, the CAF trains with lousy bone-jarring suspensions ...

Judgement Day

I am afraid I cannot agree with your definition of Japan = quality, rather the opposite. The Arrow fleet (2600s) are ghastly; the DART units (8500 and 8600 type) were also built in Japan and are a byword for passenger discomfort - no cushions on the seats! Of course most of these Japanese engineers probably cut their teeth building the original Burma Road.

The original DART units, built in Germany, are by far and away the most comfortable to travel in and whatever about the De Dietrich maintenance problems they are, in my opinion, from a passenger experience superior to anything else running in Ireland. That said the 'dining' cars are possibly the worst ever designed for any railway.

My point, and Mr.Cowan's, was that we should be patriotic and shop local and there are still plenty of railcar builders left in Europe or should we let what's left of our railway industry follow our ship building industry into oblivion?

SeanW

No doubt about it: the stuff we got from British Rail Engineering Limited (BREL) like the Mark2D "Supertrain" and the Mark 3s were top notch for the job, indeed to save money Irish Rail got each set of Mk3 delivered less assmbled and the last arrivals came as a box of parts to be assembled in Inchicore! Ditto for the Linke Hoffman Busche LHB Darts - a solid bit of engineering they were. Unfortunately, BREL has fallen by the wayside in the intervening years, and for the mid life overhaul of the first DARTs, the job was handed to LHBs successor, Siemens Nixdorf, and they were very ... inefficient. They were years late taking, working on then returning the carriages, and even still they left a few niggling flaws. In the end, the mid life overhaul of the carriages took longer than it took to build and commission the entire DART system in the 1980s and probably cost nearly as much.

As for the Japanese DARTs being uncomfortable, remember that for an over-subscribed DART line, capacity is more important than comfort and I'm sure the tender specifications had that in mind. The IC 22ks are partly Japan made and they're very comfortable.

I agree we should want to have some engineering industry in Europe, but Irish Rail had to (analogy here) choose between the Toyotas of the railway world and the Fiat (Fix It Again Tomorrows). Sucks, but that's life.

Cool Mo D

Judgement Day wrote: »

I am afraid I cannot agree with your definition of Japan = quality, rather the opposite. The Arrow fleet (2600s) are ghastly; the DART units (8500 and 8600 type) were also built in Japan and are a byword for passenger discomfort - no cushions on the seats! Of course most of these Japanese engineers probably cut their teeth building the original Burma Road.

The original DART units, built in Germany, are by far and away the most comfortable to travel in and whatever about the De Dietrich maintenance problems they are, in my opinion, from a passenger experience superior to anything else running in Ireland. That said the 'dining' cars are possibly the worst ever designed for any railway.

My point, and Mr.Cowan's, was that we should be patriotic and shop local and there are still plenty of railcar builders left in Europe or should we let what's left of our railway industry follow our ship building industry into oblivion?

Even though the Japanese trains may not be super comfortable, they are very reliable, especially the 29000 commuter trains. And IE need all the help they can get to run their service to the timetable.

SeanW

The 29000s were made in Spain by CAF.

Judgement Day

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Even though the Japanese trains may not be super comfortable, they are very reliable, especially the 29000 commuter trains. And IE need all the help they can get to run their service to the timetable.

I suppose we should be happy that they have wheels - who needs comfy seats anyway.

DWCommuter

armada104 wrote: »

These 51 are in addition to the 183. This is new, and has been mentioned here before in a thread about selective door opening. Not like you to miss it.

I didn't miss anything.

The initial order was for 120 coaches to cover Mayo, Galway, Limerick and Waterford. This particular order was valued at 262million. Rosslare and Sligo were added to the equation, bring the total coach number to 183 and the value to approx 400million. When this order was being delivered 2 years ago IE announced that it had received funding for a further order to cover long distance commuter runs. These coaches are due for delivery next year and in service by 2011. They were funded 2 years ago, so its an old story and not a bright light on the recession horizon.

Victor

Um isn't it:
120 coaches to cover Mayo, Galway, Limerick and Waterford. Total 120.
30 coaches to cover above and Rosslare and Sligo. Total 150.
33 coaches for long distance commuter - Portlaoise, Athlone. Total 183.
51 coaches for long distance commuter - Longford, Dundalk. Total 234.

DWCommuter

Victor wrote: »

Um isn't it:
120 coaches to cover Mayo, Galway, Limerick and Waterford. Total 120.
30 coaches to cover above and Rosslare and Sligo. Total 150.
33 coaches for long distance commuter - Portlaoise, Athlone. Total 183.
51 coaches for long distance commuter - Longford, Dundalk. Total 234.

Those breakdowns may well be correct, but the initial batch/order that commenced delivery in March 2007 was 183 coaches at 400million. Shortly afterwards the option on further coaches for outer surburban was confirmed. Search the net and Im sure you'll find confirmation.Surely I can't be the only person that knew this was coming since 2007. In fact I know Im not. The cash for this deal was handed out long before recession bit the arse off the cheque book in Amiens Street. Thats why I think its disingenuous for the story to be wheeled out in the way it has.

KC61

In fairness DWCommuter there was "an option" for further rolling stock. It was never agreed as far as I know.

This batch is apparently being funded by a road underspend.

kingshankly

SeanW wrote: »

Because they know how to make stuff in Japan? Be it Toyota cars, Taiyo Yuden blank CDs and DVDs, our 2800 class railcars and (partly Japanese) InterCity railcars, Made In Japan = Quality.

On the other hand look at the stuff we bought for the European mainland recently - DeDeitrich "Enterprise" sets that have been a maintenance nightmare, the Alstom DARTs, the CAF trains with lousy bone-jarring suspensions ...

have to agree the japs are far better than caf .
Even though the 2800 are older they are more reliable than the 29000 which are cheaply made full of plastic compartments as opposed to metal interior in the 28s . Even things like doors and toilets constantly giving problems on the 29s but it is very rare to see a door out of order on a 28.

positron

Can someone post a link to all these numbers like 2800, 2600 etc? What do they look like?

I know the long sleek intercity coaches in Dublin-Belfast route (Enterprise service). They have the best seats and ride quality as far as I know. They are clean, their PA system is nice, doors are good, toilets are well kept, A/c works most of the time, smooth, quiet, and is very comfortable over all. Can't open windows and don't have a lot of standing room.

Then there are the green commuter train coaches in Drogheda-Dublin route and there are three different types of coaches - most common are the with white handrails and good bit of standing room, headrests for seats etc. Then there are these similar coach with less standing room, chunkier seats with less space between them, with yellow handrails. Then there aer the ones with no headrest, seats are like straight back and most uncomfortable - but plenty of standing room. Not as comfortable or quiet as the Enterprise.

Then there are the dart tin cans.

The new stock I would imagine would be like the new ones in Cork route? With large windows and power sockets etc?

loyatemu

positron wrote: »

Can someone post a link to all these numbers like 2800, 2600 etc? What do they look like?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_Units_of_Ireland

The new stock I would imagine would be like the new ones in Cork route? With large windows and power sockets etc?

probably be like these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IE_22000_Class

currently running on the Sligo line.

KC61

Here you go....

http://www.irishrail.ie/fleet_information/commuter_and_dart_fleet.asp
http://www.irishrail.ie/fleet_information/intercity_fleet.asp

DWCommuter

KC61 wrote: »

In fairness DWCommuter there was "an option" for further rolling stock. It was never agreed as far as I know.

This batch is apparently being funded by a road underspend.

You're dead right about that and it was confirmed in 2007.

markpb

positron wrote: »

I know the long sleek intercity coaches in Dublin-Belfast route (Enterprise service). They have the best seats and ride quality as far as I know. They are clean, their PA system is nice, doors are good, toilets are well kept, A/c works most of the time, smooth, quiet, and is very comfortable over all. Can't open windows and don't have a lot of standing room.

That would probably be more to do wit the fact that Irish Rail share operation of them with Translink who seem to be a better operator in some respects.

Slice

The most noticeable thing about the Japanese commuter trains is that they're built for Japanese size people

SeanW

You have to remember that many of these trains were built to hold "crush loads" of passengers. The 22ks were partly made in Japan - I doubt you can say the same of those!

There is a slight issue with the Mark 3 carriages that they only operate in one way - pulled by a locomotive, instead of push-pull like the 5 Mk3 push pull sets, the CDEs and the Enterprises. This means that at terminal stations you've got to tie up a lot of track/platform capacity with pilot loco movements. If you're going to have a lot of trains in a large station area like Connolly for example, that's going to limit the capacity of that station and require more sidings and whatnot nearby. The only alternative as I saw it was to have some kind of through running arrangment where pull-only trains coming to/from the North and West would continue through from/to Wexford, as back in 2005 the plan had indeed been to just have the new trains on the Heuston network and make no provisions whatsoever for the Sligo/Longford, Rosslare and Dundalk.

Regarding why the Mk3s are now going to get scrapped :mad: I suspect that there was something of a feast-and-famine mentality in the engineering section of Irish Rail - mass line closures in the early-mid 20th century, followed by the investment in the DART and Mk3s and some CWR line upgrades, followed by 20 years of watching the railway die due to underfunding, followed by bubble-time financing of modernisation, followed possibly by less funding when the economy slowed down ... in a way I almost don't blame IE for grabbing everything it could while it could.

The question now is what happens to the Mk3s - a chunk of them are to be refurbished to restock the Dublin Belfast line and proper order too - but I think with a little re-examination, productive use could be found for the rest, like GAA and event specials, more Commuter services and so on.

dowlingm

SeanW wrote: »

You have to remember that many of these trains were built to hold "crush loads" of passengers. The 22ks were partly made in Japan - I doubt you can say the same of those!

There is a slight issue with the Mark 3 carriages that they only operate in one way - pulled by a locomotive, instead of push-pull like the 5 Mk3 push pull sets, the CDEs and the Enterprises.

Well, mostly because the non-PP Mk3s don't have Driving Van Trailers. The options I can think of, none of them cheap, would be

1. uprate the five Mk3PP control cars from 70 to 100mph and fit CAWS (and aircon equipment?) and a second generator from the Mk3 generator vans but we don't know what sort of lifespan that gets us, and it limits the number of available sets when accounting for maintenance windows etc.
2. buy CAF DVTs structurally compatible with Mk4 and electrically compatible with Mk3 - best option but likely most expensive
3. buy and regauge and electrically re-equip withdrawn BR Mk3 DVTs.

I think there would also be some rewiring required on the Mk3 trailers but that should be included in any refit work to bring them into Enterprise service.

* Note - one other option exists: replace the Mk4 DVT/201s with top/tail powercars and cascade the Mk4 DVTs to the Mk3 fleet. Not likely either though, not least since rail freight's demise means the loco fleet needs the last euro wrung out of it.

L1011

I thought the Mk3 DVTs were speed limited due to one of them being built on top of a spare DART bogie? e.g. exclude that one and the other 4 should be capable of higher speeds as-is.

dowlingm

If there isn't a fleet-wide issue such as stability when leading or crashworthiness - that the derating is solely undercarriage related - then bogies should not be a problem with the number of Mk3s parked up. However, the 6100s can't solely power the Intercity Mk3 fleet so unless a generator van was going too it still needs removal of seats and an extra generator fitted to make it a workable DVT.