Scrappage and NCT Enforcement scheme.

Sponge Bob

I was told today that _some_ money is being found for a scrappage scheme by the end of this month .

One of the conditions of the scrappage scheme will that the car you scrap MUST have a valid NCT at the time of scrappage . No bangers.

The scrappage scheme will not come into effect before the 1st of April but the Garda are going on an enforcement rampage on pre 2000 cars from Paddys weekend as they are the ones that 'qualify' for the scrappage scheme .

If the car is not NCT'd currently ( max 3 months leeway I have been told ) , it will be towed or driven to the pound straight away off the roadside . The campaign is to run until after easter . This would be the first campaign explicitly aimed at NCT enforcement that I know of .

The Garda campaign will be most vigorous in the northern half of the country but not so much in Dublin where fewer pre 2000 cars are involved in accidents as a % of the overall pre 2000 fleet in Dublin .

Tipsy Mac

Unless they are offering about €10,000 scrappage for each banger I can't see there being much interest in it at all. What they should instead do is zero rate VRT on all A rated cars to stimulate overall sales.

Gran Hermano

Some nice NCT and VRT revenue for government, new sales for garages, overtime for police. Win win for everyone.


Unless you Joe Punter with no NCT recently redundant and no funds.

Thoie

Sponge Bob wrote: »

One of the conditions of the scrappage scheme will that the car you scrap MUST have a valid NCT at the time of scrappage . No bangers.

So only a car that the government's agents have deemed as roadworthy can be scrapped? That's a bit mad. "Your car is fine, burn it."

Anan1

Tipsy Mac wrote: »

Unless they are offering about €10,000 scrappage for each banger I can't see there being much interest in it at all. What they should instead do is zero rate VRT on all A rated cars to stimulate overall sales.

Why would we want to stimulate sales?

godtabh

how much are the offering to scrap you car?

jhegarty

Sponge Bob wrote: »

If the car is not NCT'd currently ( max 3 months leeway I have been told ) , it will be towed or driven to the pound straight away off the roadside .

And what happens then ?

McSpud

I guess this is to stop people buying a banger for E100 & trading it in for scrappage allowance.

It would be easier to ensure that car has been registered with person for day 6 months. I think they did something similar with the previous scheme?

Voodoomelon

If this is going to happen, I can see a lot of sub €1000 cars on Carzone dissappearing very quickly.

godtabh

Voodoomelon wrote: »

If this is going to happen, I can see a lot of sub €1000 cars on Carzone dissappearing very quickly.

If I could get €1000 for my car I'd do it tomorrow

Explosive_Cornflake

This could be right up my alley.
Have a '96 car. Got it NCT in January, but the head gasket is about gone.
Would be sweet to get 2k for it.
Edit: I'm taking figures from here

Thoie

Explosive_Cornflake wrote: »

Would be sweet to get 2k for it.
Edit: I'm taking figures from here

So it only works with brand new cars? Ah well.

Mailman

Problem is new cars even with 2K knocked off are too expensive.
A Panda costs 11K before delivery charges new but a 5 year old one with low mileage can be picked up for €4K and is essentially the same car

Was seriously thinking of downsizing to a FIAT 500 last year but no discounts were available. They were priced at 13995 with additional delivery charge on top of 500euro and you couldn't get a base model in white which is the nicest colour so you'd have to pay hundreds more for metallic and whatever extras the dealer had on the cars in stock. That's you up to 15000 again. subtract 2000 scrappage and you are down to 13K but you can get a very good secondhand Ford Ford Focus for 5,500.

Small cars(which is what this scheme is going to promote) are just too expensive here in comparison to the quality low mileage secondhand hardware out there. There is still gouging too. Cars like the Hyundai i10 get air con in the UK but there is no mention of it in spec sheets of the Irish version.

for the record I bought a new Fiat Punto back in '98 trading in a banger of an Opel Kadett and got 30,000 trouble free miles out of it before selling it on.

Explosive_Cornflake

Mailman wrote: »

Problem is new cars even with 2K knocked off are too expensive.
A Panda costs 11K before delivery charges new but a 5 year old one with low mileage can be picked up for €4K and is essentially the same car

Was seriously thinking of downsizing to a FIAT 500 last year but no discounts were available. They were priced at 13995 with additional delivery charge on top of 500euro and you couldn't get a base model in white which is the nicest colour so you'd have to pay hundreds more for metallic and whatever extras the dealer had on the cars in stock. That's you up to 15000 again. subtract 2000 scrappage and you are down to 13K but you can get a very good secondhand Ford Ford Focus for 5,500.

Small cars(which is what this scheme is going to promote) are just too expensive here in comparison to the quality low mileage secondhand hardware out there. There is still gouging too. Cars like the Hyundai i10 get air con in the UK but there is no mention of it in spec sheets of the Irish version.

for the record I bought a new Fiat Punto back in '98 trading in a banger of an Opel Kadett and got 30,000 trouble free miles out of it before selling it on.

That's also very true. Was my original thinking. I need a car, and would like to spend less than 10k. Also, new car is probably no good i it's small. I "broke" my current one doing to many motorway miles on a small engine.

Jo King

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I was told today that _some_ money is being found for a scrappage scheme by the end of this month .




If the car is not NCT'd currently ( max 3 months leeway I have been told ) , it will be towed or driven to the pound straight away off the roadside . The campaign is to run until after easter . This would be the first campaign explicitly aimed at NCT enforcement that I know of .

Where are they going to get the storage space?

mumblin deaf ro

Do you have to buy a new car to avail of the scrappage scheme? Would many people be trading in a ten year old car for a brand new one for the sake of a grand or two?

old boy

where are the public going to get the price of new cars, even if the average joe public had a few grand lying around the last thing he will buy is a car given the current economic climate

SAABMAN

Last time they had the scrappage deal was at the start of the Celtic Tiger. Loads of small, uncomfortable korean cars were sold. Reposession rates went through the roof because people found that they really couldn't afford a new car. There was a reason they were driving bangers---they had no money.
Seriously, if I could afford a newer car I would have one. Probably still be a SAAB though

Seth Brundle

McSpud wrote: »

I guess this is to stop people buying a banger for E100 & trading it in for scrappage allowance.

It would be easier to ensure that car has been registered with person for day 6 months. I think they did something similar with the previous scheme?

Why though? The idea of the scrappage is to both stimulate car sales (therefore helping the business) and also raise revenue in VRT (therefore helping the economy).
Stipulating that the car has an NCT and/or tax is a stupid technicality!
As for scrapping cars with an NCT - what cretin came up with that idea? With three 'green' TDs in government, how did this one get through?

Zube

"The finance minister told the Dáil in early February that he had no plans to introduce a new scrappage scheme"

Since then, he's found a big pot of gold under a rainbow, and he's decided to..

Oh, finish it yourselves.

SAABMAN

He also said only last week that there was not going to be a mini budget. "We had our budget in October".
A Week is a long time in politics :rolleyes:

S.I.R

SAABMAN wrote: »

He also said only last week that there was not going to be a mini budget. "We had our budget in October".
A Week is a long time in politics :rolleyes:

indeed it is, and it just so happens that these next few years will be the rebirth of the 100 pound banger... or 1000 euro...

maidhc

S.I.R wrote: »

indeed it is, and it just so happens that these next few years will be the rebirth of the 100 pound banger... or 1000 euro...

Well if it fosters a culture of people looking after the cars they have rather than treating them as disposable atfer 2-3 years, then that is a good thing.

Ronaldo*

End-of-life vehicles (ELV) Directive
Are you getting rid of your old car?
You have an old car. It is clapped out and you want to get rid of it. So what do you do?


All intact end-of-life vehicles must be accepted from the owner of the vehicle free of charge.

http://www.meath.ie/LocalAuthorities/Environment/End-Of-LifeVehicles/

Not sure about the certificate though, there may be a charge for that.
I have the same problem, Great car but very expensive road tax -€1250!!!
Looks like this is going to end up on the heap.

Ronaldo*

:eek:More Trivia.... It's the LAW!
Authorised Treatment Centre Obligations

From the 1st January 2007 and onwards, on the deposit of an end-of-life vehicle at an authorised treatment facility for appropriate treatment and recovery, the owner or operator of that facility shall

• issue a Certificate of Destruction to the registered owner, an authorised person of a local authority or a member of An Garda Síochána and
• all relevant information relating to that certificate of destruction shall be noted on the National Vehicle File.
• No charge may be imposed by the authorised treatment facility on the registered owner of the end-of-life vehicle in respect of the Certificate of Destruction.

http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/Waste/ProducerResponsibilityObligations/EndOfLifeVehicles/

godtabh

Ronaldo* wrote: »

End-of-life vehicles (ELV) Directive
Are you getting rid of your old car?
You have an old car. It is clapped out and you want to get rid of it. So what do you do?


All intact end-of-life vehicles must be accepted from the owner of the vehicle free of charge.

http://www.meath.ie/LocalAuthorities/Environment/End-Of-LifeVehicles/

Not sure about the certificate though, there may be a charge for that.
I have the same problem, Great car but very expensive road tax -€1250!!!
Looks like this is going to end up on the heap.

Ronaldo* wrote: »

:eek:More Trivia.... It's the LAW!
Authorised Treatment Centre Obligations

From the 1st January 2007 and onwards, on the deposit of an end-of-life vehicle at an authorised treatment facility for appropriate treatment and recovery, the owner or operator of that facility shall

• issue a Certificate of Destruction to the registered owner, an authorised person of a local authority or a member of An Garda Síochána and
• all relevant information relating to that certificate of destruction shall be noted on the National Vehicle File.
• No charge may be imposed by the authorised treatment facility on the registered owner of the end-of-life vehicle in respect of the Certificate of Destruction.

http://www.environ.ie/en/Environment/Waste/ProducerResponsibilityObligations/EndOfLifeVehicles/

Most of the cars that have NCTs aregood to go but may not be worth much. Getting €1000 a car rather than directly scrapping is a much better idea

Guy:Incognito

AM I missing something or are people debating something that hasnt been said outside of this thread as fact?


Is there a government source of any sort?
Has even one hack at a tabloid mentioned it?

Thoie

Stekelly wrote: »

AM I missing something or are people debating something that hasnt been said outside of this thread as fact?


Is there a government source of any sort?
Has even one hack at a tabloid mentioned it?

Spoilsport.

So anyway, I vote we all go protest outside government buildings.

Ronaldo*

kearnsr wrote: »

Most of the cars that have NCTs aregood to go but may not be worth much. Getting €1000 a car rather than directly scrapping is a much better idea

The point is that if you want to get €1000 or €2000 for a scrap deal, you need to buy a new(or newish) car. In effect, the €2000 bucks is then just worked into the price of the new car. But of course if you can just sell your car for €1000 cash, this is the better option.

Problem is nobodys buying. So rather than pay ridiculous (and very unfair) road tax and rip-off insurance, cut your losses and scrap it for free. Then use the bus! ....oh thats been scrapped too....

Ronaldo*

Stekelly wrote: »

AM I missing something or are people debating something that hasnt been said outside of this thread as fact?


Is there a government source of any sort?
Has even one hack at a tabloid mentioned it?

Irish times and some others have reported it. I don't think it official yet.

Ronaldo*

Thoie wrote: »

Spoilsport.

So anyway, I vote we all go protest outside government buildings.

YES, I've always wanted to do that!
Lets go revv our engines!

Camarague

The whole idea of a scrappage scheme is ridiculous. How is SIMI lobbying tolerated in this so-called democracy?

Cars don't rust like they used to. Pollution hasn't been reduced much since the mid 90s. Unsafe cars are taken off the road by the NCT.

So what is the logical excuse for a scrappage scheme?

Seth Brundle

Camarague wrote: »

The whole idea of a scrappage scheme is ridiculous. How is SIMI lobbying tolerated in this so-called democracy?

Cars don't rust like they used to. Pollution hasn't been reduced much since the mid 90s. Unsafe cars are taken off the road by the NCT.

So what is the logical excuse for a scrappage scheme?

I don't think that this one is down to SIMI lobbying as much as you think. I believe that its more down to the fact that it will:
i. possibly help save jobs (where otherwise the government may end up paying welfare for these people)
ii. encourage spending in a slow economy
iii. make money - don't forget that at the moment nothing is really selling so VRT receipts are waaaay down. By encouraging people to buy cars (even though you will spend a grand or two in doing so), you will make back the VRT and VAT so the net result is positive

leeroybrown

As kbannon mentions above out there is a huge difference in tax take between a new and used car. If the government can stimulate the new car market then they'll get a big chunk of VRT as well as a full VAT payment. On a similarly priced used car all they get is a portion of the VAT as the dealer will either have been charged VAT on purchase of the vehicle or will be able to deduct 'residual' VAT from their payment to the government.

EDIT, I'll also add that that while cars no longer rust and the NCT gets rid of death traps, there are an awful lot of cars of that age on the road that you really don't want to be involved in an accident in.

Ronaldo*

leeroybrown wrote: »

As kbannon mentions above out there is a huge difference in tax take between a new and used car. If the government can stimulate the new car market then they'll get a big chunk of VRT as well as a full VAT payment. On a similarly priced used car all they get is a portion of the VAT as the dealer will either have been charged VAT on purchase of the vehicle or will be able to deduct 'residual' VAT from their payment to the government.

EDIT, I'll also add that that while cars no longer rust and the NCT gets rid of death traps, there are an awful lot of cars of that age on the road that you really don't want to be involved in an accident in.

I think the VRT and Road tax should be reduced and more tax added to fuel. The more fuel you use (=the more carbon you make and the more wear n tear on the road), the more you pay. The governament makes more money from everyone...much more broad and fair tax that can't be evaded very easely.

Ronaldo*

AND the governament should give incentives to write off old bangers that guzzle fuel and produce plenty carbon...so I do support the scrap deals.:cool:

Top Dog

Ronaldo* wrote: »

I think the VRT and Road tax should be reduced and more tax added to fuel. The more fuel you use (=the more carbon you make and the more wear n tear on the road), the more you pay. The governament makes more money from everyone...much more broad and fair tax that can't be evaded very easely.

Thats much too logical a thought for our Government to ever implement it

Eoin

Stekelly wrote: »

AM I missing something or are people debating something that hasnt been said outside of this thread as fact?

Welcome to boards.ie

Camarague

A Scrappage Scheme would:

1. Remove lots of perfectly serviceable cars from the second hand market, leading to more expensive second hand cars
2. Cause huge amounts of pollution - from building new cars (with the high energy requirements and toxic industrial waste involved with that), transporting them to Ireland, and from destroying old cars (relatively new 1995-99) that don't pollute any more than new cars
3. The majority of the money from all these new cars would go OUTSIDE Ireland - money which might otherwise be spent in such a way that it stays in Ireland, continuing to benefit the economy here

I think fair enough about giving a VRT discount. But to hell with a Scrappage Scheme

There never should have been one in 95

pburns

Camarague wrote: »

Cause huge amounts of pollution - from building new cars (with the high energy requirements and toxic industrial waste involved with that), transporting them to Ireland, and from destroying old cars (relatively new 1995-99) that don't pollute any more than new cars

+1
FF will be seen to be stimulating the motor trade and placating their turnip-head coalition partners.
Political expediancy - 10/10
Environmental benefit - 1/10
Budget deficit - 0/10
:rolleyes:

Camarague wrote: »

The majority of the money from all these new cars would go OUTSIDE Ireland - money which might otherwise be spent in such a way that it stays in Ireland, continuing to benefit the economy here

Yep... Many here have a more myopic view of it though. With VRT removed they'd be able to afford a BMW with a bigger engine & higher spec and sure aren't de guvermint a shower of robbin b******s anyway...

leeroybrown

I agree that a car scrappage scheme is not necessarily a good idea for a lot of reasons but the government will really only be looking at tax revenue and employment. Selling new cars and increasing the average value of used cars nationally maximises their tax revenue and is the most likely move to protect jobs in the motor trade.

Ronaldo*

Originally Posted by Stekelly
AM I missing something or are people debating something that hasnt been said outside of this thread as fact?

eoin wrote: »

Welcome to boards.ie

Eoin, as far as I have it, a scrap deal was proposed in the dail and reported by some tabloids a week or so back. Its not a done deal yet.
The proposal was to have a scrappage deal if you buy a new or newish car in its place. You cannot hand in your old car for cash. The idea is to stimulate sales of new cars and all the rest that follows (VRT, jobs, economy, greener cars etc).

Ronaldo*

pburns wrote: »

+1
FF will be seen to be stimulating the motor trade and placating their turnip-head coalition partners.
Political expediancy - 10/10
Environmental benefit - 1/10
Budget deficit - 0/10
:rolleyes:



Yep... Many here have a more myopic view of it though. With VRT removed they'd be able to afford a BMW with a bigger engine & higher spec and sure aren't de guvermint a shower of robbin b******s anyway...

So if fuel price is taxed more heavily (say an extra 10c per liter) the boys who buy big engine cars (like me) will pay more to refuel and contribute more tax revenue. This is an incentive to drive less distance.

Also truks and lorries that really guzzle fuel and have a huuuuuge carbon footprint and travel millions of km, will pay more tax! Thats fair. Why tax a 4.5L passat more than a 6L van???? Surely the 6L van is making much more pollution and wear on the road than the passat to the shops and back on a Sunday....

techdiver

Ronaldo* wrote: »

So if fuel price is taxed more heavily (say an extra 10c per liter) the boys who buy big engine cars (like me) will pay more to refuel and contribute more tax revenue. This is an incentive to drive less distance.

Also truks and lorries that really guzzle fuel and have a huuuuuge carbon footprint and travel millions of km, will pay more tax! Thats fair. Why tax a 4.5L passat more than a 6L van???? Surely the 6L van is making much more pollution and wear on the road than the passat to the shops and back on a Sunday....

I think there needs to be a distinction made between private cars and industrial vehicles and haulage companies. If haulage companies have to endure extra overhead in the form of fuel tax, it will only be passed onto the consumer in the form of higher costs for food and goods etc.

I would be in favour of a hike in fuel price for private cars such as for myself and exempt haulage companies from this tax. I would also introduce an incentive scheme for road haulage companies to invest in greener vehicles.

Ronaldo*

techdiver wrote: »

I think there needs to be a distinction made between private cars and industrial vehicles and haulage companies. If haulage companies have to endure extra overhead in the form of fuel tax, it will only be passed onto the consumer in the form of higher costs for food and goods etc.

I would be in favour of a hike in fuel price for private cars such as for myself and exempt haulage companies from this tax. I would also introduce an incentive scheme for road haulage companies to invest in greener vehicles.

You make a good point though I think thats opening a gap for black market cheap diesel and incentive to steal tax. I say one price for all. Perhaps only 1c extra of tax per liter fuel (some research needed on the correct amount). So let the price of goods be put up. Democracy and competition will dictate the price of goods at the end of the day. (Law of supply and demand)

Thoie

Ronaldo* wrote: »

You make a good point though I think thats opening a gap for black market cheap diesel and incentive to steal tax. I say one price for all. Perhaps only 1c extra of tax per liter fuel (some research needed on the correct amount). So let the price of goods be put up. Democracy and competition will dictate the price of goods at the end of the day. (Law of supply and demand)

Why not charge an extra x cents or y percent at every pump, but allow commercials to claim some/all of the extra back?

Ronaldo*

Thoie wrote: »

Why not charge an extra x cents or y percent at every pump, but allow commercials to claim some/all of the extra back?

1. Keep it simple. Dont try complicate things.
2. Who would police such a claim back?
3. How can you be sure such a claim is legitimate?
4. The directors of these transport companies will probably fuel their private cars too, and their wives, mistrisses, sons, daughters, nephew, nice, sun in law's cars and claim tax back for fuel. Thats a flawed system giving incentive for corruption.
5. And what about all the overheads to administer such a system. More clutter and red tape. Get rid of it. Loose the baggage, keep it stright forward and simple.
6. The receiver of revenue would loose out on a low, broad tax that everyone contributes to. Rich and poor. The more you spend, the more tax you pay. Rich companies spend much more than unemployed persons on fuel and so should pay more tax.

bobbbb

Dont know about anyone else, but i was planning on buying a new car before the 1% levy. After the levy my priority was to save the money i lost in tax so the idea of buying a new car was jettisoned.
Now with more tax going to be taken from my wages the idea of buying a new car, or anything big for that matter, is so far at the bottom of my list that i doubt i'll ever buy a new one.

Im certainly not going to fall for a con of a scrappage scheme.

Victor

I spoke to someone and the suggestion of a scappage scheme linked to the NCT is "absolute rubbish".