Feedback on a recording/mix

ogy

*changed format to 16bit 320kbps mp3 for quicker download

hey lads, any chance of some pointers and tips on this tune i recorded and am mixing for a friends band

Drunken Pervert (Get Out Of My Room)
16bit mp3

heres another one:
I'm Not Coming Home
16bit mp3


ive seen some great advice on mixes over the last while on the forum and would appreciate some of same:)

i have another 3 to do so may post them too (in this thread) when ive taken them as far as i can, if noone minds me picking your brains.

while i think ive decent technical knowledge on recording im lacking on the experience end and apart from college work this is only the second time ive recorded/tried to mix a full band.

im suitably thick skinned to feel free to hammer it!:)

Big Wave

The song isn't my thing, but the mix is good.

You can hear the bass being plucked in the intro, but otherwise fine, and it may even be intentional.

Vocals could maybe do with some 'treatment' to make them fuller & brighter - I use iZotope Ozone (vocal treatment preset, tweaked). Vocals seem slightly lost at some points (not volume-wise, but clarity); but that could just be bad diction by the singer.

Everything is nice & crisp, and levels are good though.

So overall, Id' say excellent for your 2nd mix.

fitz

Went to download this last night, but it was taking ages.
Any chance of a smaller file? MP3 at 320?

ogy

yeh fair point fitz, done!:)

fitz

Had a listen to the first track.
It's too safe a mix for me.
It doesn't sound bad, nothing is poking out much or being too harsh, but in doing that, I think you've missed out on the opportunity to really get things sounding great.
The drums are a clear, but boxy, and a bit weak. Try sending the overheads to a heavily compressed bus and bringing a bit of that to fatten up the drum sound.
I'd tone down the very throughout, maybe use a subtle delay on the vocal to get it to sit into the mix instead of a verb. At the moment, you've got space, without depth or "glue". I'd go for a more "in your face", closer sound.

On repeat listening, the vocal could definitely do with more compression, I wouldn't be afraid to dirty the vocal up quite a bit.
Have a listen to "Are You Gonna Be My Girl" by Jet as a production reference for this track, it's pretty much exactly how I'd want the mix to sound.

http://www.last.fm/music/Jet/_/Are+You+Gonna+Be+My+Girl

DamagedTrax

i downloaded the first track.

song isnt to my tastes.. but that doesnt matter 1 bit as music tastes are very subjective.

the mix is very good for a beginner. well done.

a few points

the drums are too tame. need beefing up a lot and the overheads seem very washy and lost.

the kick is smoothered by the bass. i'd do a sharp eq cut on the bass around 100/120hz as a lot of the bass power seems to be in the sub region. usually the thing to do is decide which is going to occupy the sub region and which is going to occupy the 100hz area. this will change from track to track.

i'd also add a touch of dirt to the bass to let it ring thru on the lower mids.

vocals seem a touch pinched which is something that can happen at tracking. a fair amount of compression to bring them upfront more and some eq to add weight to them will help. also the room ambience isnt to nice on them so a mild gate and then your own reverb would be probably nicer and help them sit better.

guitars sound good and strong but are a bit too upfront in the mix and could do with some restraint on the faders and reverb to help them gel a little more.

just remember when adding reverb to anything to pan the aux send to match the pan on the instrument. a lot of people dont do this and can lead to localisation problems aswell as an overall "not real" feeling.

like i said for a beginner this is very very good and the problems im pointing out arent something to be in anyway ashamed of. if you take the good advice offered in this thread you will end up with a mix that is much more accebtable than one expected from someone at your level.

man, i wish my first mix was this good! i'd have been embarressed of mine to play it to anyone. it sounded like it was recorded in buiscit tins

well done again.

ogy

thanks for the feedback so far big wave and fitz.fitz, i definitely agree with what your saying, i think i just needed someone else to say it! the drums are definitely the element im least happy with, which is a pity because i was really happy with the basic raw recordings. i am parralel compressing them but ill try sending more to the buss to get them more up front and striking. i think im probably over cautious with the EQ too and that may be why theyre a bit weak, i was conscious of aiming for a "natural" sounding kit but this may have held me back a bit.reverb is still something i really struggle with i have to say, probably the element of mixing i have the least handle on. i always prefer how things sound without reverb, but i know that reverb is needed to create a sense of space and to glue the mix together too. the basic idea i use is to put a room sound on everything then add reverb to each element, less reverb for the elements i want to be to the fore, and more to the back. then i add some plates to guitar/snare and vocals. i find it difficult to judge how much or which preset to use or how to tweak said preset. my ears just aren't there yet i guess! will try compressing the vocals more too, again i think aiming for a "natural" sound may have made me reluctant to squash them anymore but i will experiment with higher ratios.

ogy

@Damaged Trax
Will revisit the kick/bass relationship, kick was peaking around 80hz (suprise suprise:)) so i cut the bass there, but as i said before, probably was a bit conservative with the EQ i used in general. they only time i used cuts/boosts any bigger than 4-5db would have been to fix ringing or booming frequencies i heard. definitely will revisit the drums as i said above.

by a touch of dirt on the bass do you mean distortion? what do you guys use for this in a mix? i have guitar rig and amplitube but find they take over the whole sound too much. i find vintage warmer completely changes your tone too. any distortion effect you'd recommend for subtle touches of filth (that should be a band name:)).

the vocal tracks are actually dry, its a convolution reverb adding the room sound, as i mentioned my reverb application needs a lot of work so will defintiely look at this. for all my reverbs i just used a stereo fx channel and sent the mono tracks to this so the localisation is definitely messed up now that you say it.

thanks for taking the time to listen man, really appreciate the feedback so far lads keep it coming:)

DamagedTrax

if i wanna add a touch of dirt to anything i always reach for antares tube plugin.

its the smallest little plug-in and it just adds that little extra without impacting the sound in a huge way.

you know its done its job but its not audibly obvious if you know what i mean?

ogy

cool i'll check it out, i know what you mean i think, like apply something it until its barely noticeable, then pull it back a few db.

DamagedTrax

and most importantly its got little tubes on the gui that glow when you drive it :D:D:D

ball ox

they should make one that sends the smell of hot tubes out your cooling fan

DamagedTrax

ball ox wrote: »

they should make one that sends the smell of hot tubes out your cooling fan

or one that fires a tube at your face if something goes wrong :pac:..

anyone ever had a tube go into missile mode on them?

i57dwun4yb1pt8

i like the first one , nicely done

the second suffers a boxy dull room sound on the kit

id beef up the drums ( more on the secoind one than the first )

over heads are lost in the second one as well
kick a bit weedy as well in both

bass a bit loud in 2 ? and a bit clicky in 1

snare could do a touch of snap / snarey sound

drums sound panned full left right - im not a fan of that personaly - prefer each instrument to sit in a space like a stage - drums usually 60-70 % left and right not 100 % ( uness you use close xy overheads , these can pan 100% - kinda sounds like you are using recorderman / glyn jons method to me .


good work

ogy

yeh drums definitely a priority now, gonna get stuck into them this evening and use EQ and more parralel comp to try and beef them up a bit. the third track we started working on we tried to create a more electronic sound from the drums using extreme gates and EQ, it really opened my eyes up as to what i can get out of the tracks if im a bit more adventurous with the EQ.

overheads weren't coincident or close, they were spaced either side of the kit pointed at the snare. i have them panned about 80 l and r, might try bringing them in a bit see if it helps with the upbeefing:)

bass player hits the pickup alot when playing which gives a bit of a click, hard to solve with EQ cos it takes the tone away from the rest of it, might try a frequency triggered gate or something.

cheers DaDum!

PaulBrewer

ogy wrote: »

yeh drums definitely a priority now, gonna get stuck into them this evening and use EQ and more parralel comp to try and beef them up a bit. the third track we started working on we tried to create a more electronic sound from the drums using extreme gates and EQ, it really opened my eyes up as to what i can get out of the tracks if im a bit more adventurous with the EQ.

overheads weren't coincident or close, they were spaced either side of the kit pointed at the snare. i have them panned about 80 l and r, might try bringing them in a bit see if it helps with the upbeefing:)

bass player hits the pickup alot when playing which gives a bit of a click, hard to solve with EQ cos it takes the tone away from the rest of it, might try a frequency triggered gate or something.

cheers DaDum!

Put your effort into avoiding those problems initially.

Move mics to avoid the need to EQ if possible, the range of tones available out of a kick is huge by just adjusting the mic.

A coincident stereo pair as overheads avoids phase issues. Fully panned it's actually stereo but not too wide. Pulling them in destroys imaging. The mono well too.

Stick some electrical tape (or similar) on the bass pickup to minimise the click recorded.

In my experience 'frequency triggered gates' and the like only work on forums ...:cool:

ogy

In my experience 'frequency triggered gates' and the like only work on forums ...

fair point, alas i only picked up on it (:rolleyes:) afterwards so may as well try something to fix it. will definitely try the electrical tape thing in future.

did my best to get it right at the source, genuinely how little eq would you commonly use on a kick drum? would you really get proper low end just from the mic without boosting 60-80hz?

PaulBrewer

ogy wrote: »

fair point, alas i only picked up on it (:rolleyes:) afterwards so may as well try something to fix it. will definitely try the electrical tape thing in future.

did my best to get it right at the source, genuinely how little eq would you commonly use on a kick drum? would you really get proper low end just from the mic without boosting 60-80hz?

Very often none and 90% of the time cutting, if any is required.

You'd be surprised how little eq is used in general by the Big Dawgs - or at least the ones I've worked with, or spoken to.

(compression is a different story though)

I've always found unless you have fine tools avoid using them, things will sound better in the end.

That's especially true if you're limited by choice.

There are often enough external adjustments that can be made to avoid the need for much internal.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

i find if you get the kick mic placed well ( start with 1 /3 way into the drum about 3 inche diagonally up and right of center pointing at the floor tom legs is a good start

then on the eq , cut about - 4 to -6 around 450 in a q of 1.2 or 1.3

also put a low pass filter at 10 k and above and a high pass at 20 - 25 hz to remove the speaker killer stuff.

then compress the result a good bit to ring her up and get some beef .

maybe a touch of boost ( 2 - 3 db around 60 - 100 on 1.2 q )

this is my start point for kicks .

I am tending towards the cut and compress rather than boosting these days.


if this is odd, please point it out , it sounds good to me though.


note - i cant go for roomy kick sounds ( much as id like to ) as the room is dead - so im all in the kick shell

ogy

ok cool, i know EQ creates phase issues (except for linear eqs which create cpu issues:)) so dynamic effects are usually better, i guess this was part of my initial reluctance to really push the eq

along with mic position do you think theres a direct relationship between signal chain (i.e. preamps/converters/summing) and how much eq and other treatment is needed? i guess thats a kinda of obvious question but i suppose i mean, if you know theres weak elements in your chain, should you expect to have to use treatment like eq etc. more?

i57dwun4yb1pt8

i also use a trick paul told me about - which is duplicate the overheads tracks - pan them same as the over heads ( exactly) and feed them to a group called oh-squash
feed the group to the overall drum mix group

bang a mad compressor like the ssl LMC on the oh squash group and blend it under the drum mix - you can get some lovley dirty tom resonances and snare honks and room sound that really beef the kit up .

but only use it sparingly - as the cymbals can get to washy .

it seems better the less room you have in the sound ( as the room can most times sound crap if its a bad room - i have a really dead room and whats left in the overheads actually squashes well )

i57dwun4yb1pt8

im defo eqing alot less since i got good gear - so i think it makes a big deifference .

ogy

cheers dadum, the frequencies are similar to where i adjusted, but i just think i didn't cut/boost hard enough at the required points.

i found with mic position if it was inside the drum at all i got no low end at all, got a sound i (thought) i was happy with about 2 inches away from the hole and felt the low end increased the further away i moved. guess though thats related to the room exaggerating the low end too though.

i also use a trick paul told me about - which is duplicate the overheads tracks - pan them same as the over heads ( exactly) and feed them to a group called oh-squash
feed the group to the overall drum mix group

pretty much the same as sending the buss and compressing loads i.e. parralel compression. ive actually done this with all the drums. do people think this is adding or detracting from the OHs? (of course i can investigate myself later)

PaulBrewer

DaDumTish wrote: »

i find if you get the kick mic placed well ( start with 1 /3 way into the drum about 3 inche diagonally up and right of center pointing at the floor tom legs is a good start

then on the eq , cut about - 4 to -6 around 450 in a q of 1.2 or 1.3

also put a low pass filter at 10 k and above and a high pass at 20 - 25 hz to remove the speaker killer stuff.

then compress the result a good bit to ring her up and get some beef .

maybe a touch of boost ( 2 - 3 db around 60 - 100 on 1.2 q )

this is my start point for kicks .

I am tending towards the cut and compress rather than boosting these days.


if this is odd, please point it out , it sounds good to me though.


note - i cant go for roomy kick sounds ( much as id like to ) as the room is dead - so im all in the kick shell

But that's on your kick ....

i57dwun4yb1pt8

yes , you get more low end the further from the beater you go , you get more shell warmth etc , and the low waves get room to grow .

id nearly use two mics ( 1 on the back head at the beater and one outside the hole / head - im just too lazy to do this myself ( but i have done it and its great )

my kick is a yammie maple custom 20 by 16 gold lug ( very thick shell 10 mil )


id prefer a 22 ( which i have ) but the room is too tight as it as.

id also prefer a closed front head and room sound
but you have to make do i guess.

PaulBrewer

ogy wrote: »

along with mic position do you think theres a direct relationship between signal chain (i.e. preamps/converters/summing) and how much eq and other treatment is needed? i guess thats a kinda of obvious question but i suppose i mean, if you know theres weak elements in your chain, should you expect to have to use treatment like eq etc. more?

That is my view, yes.

The history of EQ (equalization) is as a repair tool. I believe it was initially used in telephone signals to 'repair' the higher end frequencies lost in transmission over long distances.

A lot of early consoles had no eq and the ones that did had simple ones like a two freq shelf, top and bottom or just filters.

Even as late as the 70s a lot of consoles only had a top, mid and bass control - some with fixed frequencies.

It's only in the 80s did the idea of large Eq sections emerge. (SSL, the pricks!)

My point is, EQ in the history of recording has played a lesser role than some might think. There were some passable records made in the old days too !:cool:

As a young engineer as I wanted to do was eq, because it was ME controlling - it took a while before the penny dropped. It's never about ME, I'm the engineer. It's about music.

EQ is often the last step, rarely the first.

This is the issue many young engineers face!

(p.s. I was chatting with Phil Hayes who records Bell X-1, amongst others, last week. He has done some teaching too. We reckoned students shouldn't be allowed to use EQ til 3rd year!)

i57dwun4yb1pt8

might be worth eqing nothing ( bar some cuts only ) except the master on export ?

wonder if this would work as an experiment.