The Irish Denial

thebman

I've noticed on this forum that a lot of Irish people seem hell bent that these cuts don't need to happen and that the government is just being mean for the sake of it.

It really does seem like a lot of people are in denial of the extent of the problem.

Other people seem to think that cuts are fine as long as it doesn't affect them.

Well I think I should just throw it out there. Everyone is going to be negatively affected by this recession nationwide and saying we accept cuts but only if they apply to everyone is not going to do anything because cuts in the public sector will most likely have to be higher since the government will have a lot less money to spend on wages. There will be people that are more negatively affected than others, it is inevitable and in this instance, it will most likely be the public sector since it is the government in trouble and it can't borrow the money and no matter how much it taxes the private sector (even if it is into the ground), it will not get the funds it needs to keep the public sector wages at the level they are at now (most likely even after the levy). That is the size of the gap in the budget for the next few years.

Expenses and services will also suffer heavily including social welfare, health care, infrastructure projects and education and there is nothing we can do about it.

Below are a couple of videos which will pretty much support what I've said here. We need to react properly to this crisis IMO and I think striking or complaining about what needs to happen is only going to make us look more foolish Internationally than if we stand together and work through this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NycJdjJ0Yj8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HdtM9PfcSM

I have no problem playing the blame game once the above has been accepted but there is no point in stating that anyone caused this mess until the above has been accepted IMO. As such I'd prefer it if people didn't derail this thread into the private sector caused this mess or damn that government. Thats for another thread, you can start your own, boards isn't charging for them to be created (yet anyway :P ).

P. Breathnach

thebman wrote: »

... As such I'd prefer it if people didn't derail this thread into the private sector caused this mess or damn that government. Thats for another thread, you can start your own, boards isn't charging for them to be created (yet anyway :P ).

Derail? You have gone down the tracks quite a distance by focusing so much on cuts, and barely mentioning the need to raise revenue. You may have fallen into the trap you mentioned, that of seeing the need for strong medicine and wanting others to take it.

Yes, much expenditure cutting is necessary. It should be carefully targeted rather than done on the crude basis of what is most convenient to administer.

But we also need tax increases to make up for some of the revenue lost because of the fall in stamp duties on property transactions, in VRT, and in VAT. I think that we have a problem in that people simply don't see -- don't want to see -- that we need to pay more taxes.

So long as people oppose paying tax, no matter how great the needs of the exchequer, politicians of all parties will dissemble: they will fudge questions or even give misleading answers. They know that if they say "vote for me and I will support tax increases" they will lose not only their chances of seats, but also their deposits. When we attack our politicians for being slippery, perhaps we should also remember that it is the electorate who made them so.

mark 2008

I'm puzzled why the government is still spending vast sums of money on overseas aid. I don't understand why they don't suspend this completely until the economy recovers a bit. Unless its that they know things are not actually that bad, but they want people to think they are so they can raise taxes.

P. Breathnach

mark 2008 wrote: »

I'm puzzled why the government is still spending vast sums of money on overseas aid. I don't understand why they don't suspend this completely until the economy recovers a bit. Unless its that they know things are not actually that bad, but they want people to think they are so they can raise taxes.

Bad though it is here, it is even worse in some other places. Should you let somebody starve to death just because you are quite hungry?

bmaxi

I'm not sure people are in denial, I think, more likely, they are in shock. The situation is not helped by Government dithering, these are the same people who were telling us not so long ago that there would be no recession, the housing market would have a soft landing etc. etc. etc.
It is difficult for the ordinary punter to accept that we can go from affluence to penury overnight. The pill is going to be very bitter but it is made all the more bitter when it is perceived that those who benefited most from the "good times", are also suffering the least pain.
Gordon Brown has said the British Government is determined that Sir Fred Goodwin will not draw down his full pension because he "fu**ed up" big time, this may seem small apples in the greater scheme of things but the symbolism will not be lost on the British public. Something similar needs to come from Cowen.

Time Magazine

mark 2008 wrote: »

I'm puzzled why the government is still spending vast sums of money on overseas aid. I don't understand why they don't suspend this completely until the economy recovers a bit. Unless its that they know things are not actually that bad, but they want people to think they are so they can raise taxes.

Because saving a child's life by giving them a vaccine that costs €2 to administer is worth more to the world than subsidising Dublin Bus by another €2.

LoveDucati2

There is no point in introducing cuts until they cut out waste.

P. Breathnach

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

There is no point in introducing cuts until they cut out waste.

That's a copout.

molloyjh

P. Breathnach wrote: »

That's a copout.

I'm not sure that it is. Certainly the line on its own is too short and needs to be expanded upon. Take for example the HSE cut backs. To make the savings they need to make they are going to cut back on beds, reduce their temp staff numbers, reduce their home services etc. In other words take a service that is already a shambles and make it worse while still retaining the wastage.

There is a need for a quick solution for now. The inefficiencies in the public sector will take time to sort out and we don't have that at the moment. However that does not mean these issues should not be addressed. They should be. And there should be some form of plan laid out showing the public what the Government plans to do. By coming out with something like that and telling us that some of the current measures will be reviewed in due course would help ease the pain of things like the pension levy. Right now all they are doing is taking the lazy option and there doesn't seem to be any strategy. The whole thing needs to be more proactive as all the Government have done so far is reduce service and reduce peoples ability to spend.

We need to do things like in introduce capital gains tax in place of stamp duty in the housing market to try and encourage the market. We need to see increased focus on clamping down on tax evasion etc. We need to consider the possibility of a third tax band for those earning "sizable" amounts, e.g. 200k+. We can afford to increase Corporation Tax a few percent and still be well below the average. Reviews of all areas in the public sector need to be undertaken to see where savings can be made with minimal disruption to services. A hard line needs to be taken with unions across the board regarding how they represent their members, for example slackers have more of an impact on other workers than the company as a whole, it's about time unions started policing its members as much as their employers in the interests of their base as a whole. If there was even an indication that stuff like this was being considered then maybe people wouldn't be so unhappy with the Governments decisions.

thebman

Both need to be done but cutting out waste will inevitably involve cutting jobs from the public sector if you want to seriously cut waste as there are things done by hand in the public sector that you could use a computer for but nobody has changed the system over.

This will make people redundant in the public sector which the government has to have the balls to do (they don't BTW, going on current trends).

Het-Field

Ireland is a nation known for deniel and passing the buck.

As a firm advocate of the Catholic Church, it has always deeply annoyed me that no responsibility was ever taken for the abuse scandels,a nd coverups which took place within the organisation

The Stardust disaster. Not only did Eamon Butterly take no responsibility, he has the gall to go to court and claim for the arson, and won almost £600,000. The deaths occured as a result of him trying to save a few quid to stop people from getting in through the fire exits

Ahern.Haughey,Burke,Lawlor and Flynn....never took one iota of responsibility for their actions, and in some cases tried every trick in the book to get around culpability

Nobody ever took responsibility for the appointment of Stephan Staunton to the Irish managers job. The appointment destroyed the legacy of one of Ireland's finest players. The FAI appointed him as he was the cheapest option available. Heads on the paenl of selectors should have rolled


This is just a further example of no responsibility being taken, nor will there be an admittal of the position that we are in

LoveDucati2

thebman wrote: »

Both need to be done but cutting out waste will inevitably involve cutting jobs from the public sector if you want to seriously cut waste as there are things done by hand in the public sector that you could use a computer for but nobody has changed the system over.

This will make people redundant in the public sector which the government has to have the balls to do (they don't BTW, going on current trends).

We need to cut about 100,000 jobs at least from the public sector.

Proportional Representation, reduce the number of TD's to 60-70 and change the way they are elected.

Limit salary's to €80k in public service.

Roll back tax cuts for the very wealthy and firms that move jobs overseas.

100% tax on salaries over 250k, 70% tax over 100k, 50% over 60k.

Seizing the assets of the corrupt politicians, bankers, and speculators.

A total change of our Judicial system.

A complete list of all the government agencies and Quangoes to be published weekly in the 2 main papers with description of who they are, renumeration, terms etc.

A complete list of every Euro that this gov has pissed away, who did it, who they are, and who they are connected too, etc.

I know this is a very brief outline but its more than Brian said at Ard F*ck

djpbarry

molloyjh wrote: »

We need to consider the possibility of a third tax band for those earning "sizable" amounts, e.g. 200k+.

I disagree; our tax system needs to become more equitable, not less so.

molloyjh wrote: »

We can afford to increase Corporation Tax a few percent and still be well below the average.

Maybe, but it would still represent a further (significant) increase in the base cost of doing business in this country.

thebman

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

We need to cut about 100,000 jobs at least from the public sector.

Proportional Representation, reduce the number of TD's to 60-70 and change the way they are elected.

Limit salary's to €80k in public service.

Roll back tax cuts for the very wealthy and firms that move jobs overseas.

100% tax on salaries over 250k, 70% tax over 100k, 50% over 60k.

Seizing the assets of the corrupt politicians, bankers, and speculators.

A total change of our Judicial system.

A complete list of all the government agencies and Quangoes to be published weekly in the 2 main papers with description of who they are, renumeration, terms etc.

A complete list of every Euro that this gov has pissed away, who did it, who they are, and who they are connected too, etc.

I know this is a very brief outline but its more than Brian said at Ard F*ck

I don't disagree with you, I just don't think the government have the balls to do it.

djpbarry

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

We need to cut about 100,000 jobs at least from the public sector.

How did you arrive at that figure?

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Proportional Representation, reduce the number of TD's to 60-70 and change the way they are elected.

How should they be elected?

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Limit salary's to €80k in public service.

Why? Surely the salary should reflect the calibre of the candidate? Won’t your proposal make it difficult for the public sector to compete with the private sector for top candidates?

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

100% tax on salaries over 250k, 70% tax over 100k, 50% over 60k.

So if I'm on 300k per annum, I pay well over 50% income tax, yet someone on the minimum wage pays nothing?

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

A complete list of all the government agencies and Quangoes to be published weekly in the 2 main papers with description of who they are, renumeration, terms etc.

That's going to be a damn big publication. And who the hell is going to pay to read that crap?

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

A complete list of every Euro that this gov has pissed away, who did it, who they are, and who they are connected too, etc.

Or, you could just research this yourself.

johnnyskeleton

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

We need to cut about 100,000 jobs at least from the public sector.

From where and why?

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Proportional Representation, reduce the number of TD's to 60-70 and change the way they are elected.

We have PR, and what changes to you want to make to the way they are elected.

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Limit salary's to €80k in public service.

Including consultant surgeons & others who wouldn't work for that amount?

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Roll back tax cuts for the very wealthy and firms that move jobs overseas.

Are you talking about America or Ireland? What Irish firms move jobs overseas and what exactly do you mean by tax cuts for the very wealthy?

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

100% tax on salaries over 250k, 70% tax over 100k, 50% over 60k.

So no one can earn over 250k and there is little or no incentive to earn over 100k. Do you want Ireland to prosper or go back to subsistence farming. Have you read Prof. Garvin's book "Why Ireland was so poor for so long"?

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

A total change of our Judicial system.

Why and to what end? A lot of what you say seems to be change for the sake of change, and to a certain extent a shake up is needed, but I think there should be a bit more thought put into the changes.

djpbarry wrote: »

I disagree; our tax system needs to become more equitable, not less so.

What do you mean by more equitable? Do you mean the more you earn the higher the rate of tax or do you mean that the people who are already paying most of the tax shouldn't be required to pay more?

irishcarbomb2k

let me start off by saying that I am not for any political party and not linked in any way to political life. I am a spectator in this but feel it necessary to let you know whats happening elsewhere. I am writing this message sitting in a Hotel in downtown LA where I spent the last week on business and the week before I spent in Washinton DC and what I have witnessed over here is absolutely shocking compared to back home and if this happened in Ireland, there would be civil war let alone protests in the streets.

From where I sit at this moment I have seen queues, every day, not waiting for Disney or the Jonas 3D film but waiting for FOOD!! There is literally hundreds of people waiting to receive some bread and basic foods. In California alone, A state which is 25% of the national US economy, there are currently 300,000 active foreclosures and 900000 people out of work and with a very poor benefit scheme, people are literally starving. Houses that last year were worth 1million dollars are now being advertised on foreclosure auctions for 85000 dollars, that is one massive decrease. I was speaking to one guy who went to the bank with an offer of 75000 for a foreclosed house and the bank refused. He went to the auction the next day and got the house for 27000 at the auction!!!! This house last year was worth 375000!! People are in trouble here. They are loosing their homes by missing their mortgage payment by 10 DAYS. Nothing seems to be working. Everyone is dissillusioned, troubled neighbours received a small bailout to help with their mortgage and others didn't and those who didn't receive the bailout are jealous of those who did because they paid their mortgage on time.

Charities are being shut down because they cannot afford to do business, not everyone is happy with Obama's stimulas plan as they feel it rewards those who caused this. People still have to pay for health insurence, even if they are made unemployed.

This is just part of what I have seen and Washington is no different. I realise that Ireland is in a state and our national Debt could end up being high but god help us if we end up like these poor people here. I have been watching the news at home and see the protests on a pension levy, people please, I am Irish and proud of it but when I see this on the news over here, I feel embarressed when compared to the problems they have here. In fact a lot of Americans I spoke to say our economy is in a good shape and at the very least we have an educational system which is open and you don't have students with debts of over 175k when their education is completed. We also have a health system (albeit flawed) but still able to cater for all in our society. Yes we have it bad, but when people are waiting in long lines for food or being tossed out of their homes for one missed payment, then I agree we're in deep trouble.

We will get out of this and I'm convinced of that and I agree its hard on those who have to pay the extra, especially if you have a large mortgage, I know how it feels because I had to take a paycut and my mortgage has not dropped that significantly but after what I see here, I am glad of what we have and I think we need to keep our heads low and try and work through this. Even as I speak, the dow has sunk on the AIG problems. Trust me, the US has a LOT to worry about at the moment than wonder if Ireland can make it. In fact compared to here, Ireland is positively eutopia.

Sorry if this is longwinded but I just felt you should all know what I've seen.:)

irish_bob

irishcarbomb2k wrote: »

let me start off by saying that I am not for any political party and not linked in any way to political life. I am a spectator in this but feel it necessary to let you know whats happening elsewhere. I am writing this message sitting in a Hotel in downtown LA where I spent the last week on business and the week before I spent in Washinton DC and what I have witnessed over here is absolutely shocking compared to back home and if this happened in Ireland, there would be civil war let alone protests in the streets.

From where I sit at this moment I have seen queues, every day, not waiting for Disney or the Jonas 3D film but waiting for FOOD!! There is literally hundreds of people waiting to receive some bread and basic foods. In California alone, A state which is 25% of the national US economy, there are currently 300,000 active foreclosures and 900000 people out of work and with a very poor benefit scheme, people are literally starving. Houses that last year were worth 1million dollars are now being advertised on foreclosure auctions for 85000 dollars, that is one massive decrease. I was speaking to one guy who went to the bank with an offer of 75000 for a foreclosed house and the bank refused. He went to the auction the next day and got the house for 27000 at the auction!!!! This house last year was worth 375000!! People are in trouble here. They are loosing their homes by missing their mortgage payment by 10 DAYS. Nothing seems to be working. Everyone is dissillusioned, troubled neighbours received a small bailout to help with their mortgage and others didn't and those who didn't receive the bailout are jealous of those who did because they paid their mortgage on time.

Charities are being shut down because they cannot afford to do business, not everyone is happy with Obama's stimulas plan as they feel it rewards those who caused this. People still have to pay for health insurence, even if they are made unemployed.

This is just part of what I have seen and Washington is no different. I realise that Ireland is in a state and our national Debt could end up being high but god help us if we end up like these poor people here. I have been watching the news at home and see the protests on a pension levy, people please, I am Irish and proud of it but when I see this on the news over here, I feel embarressed when compared to the problems they have here. In fact a lot of Americans I spoke to say our economy is in a good shape and at the very least we have an educational system which is open and you don't have students with debts of over 175k when their education is completed. We also have a health system (albeit flawed) but still able to cater for all in our society. Yes we have it bad, but when people are waiting in long lines for food or being tossed out of their homes for one missed payment, then I agree we're in deep trouble.

We will get out of this and I'm convinced of that and I agree its hard on those who have to pay the extra, especially if you have a large mortgage, I know how it feels because I had to take a paycut and my mortgage has not dropped that significantly but after what I see here, I am glad of what we have and I think we need to keep our heads low and try and work through this. Even as I speak, the dow has sunk on the AIG problems. Trust me, the US has a LOT to worry about at the moment than wonder if Ireland can make it. In fact compared to here, Ireland is positively eutopia.

Sorry if this is longwinded but I just felt you should all know what I've seen.:)

well done

thebman

irish_bob wrote: »

well done

I agree that was a great post and puts things a little bit in perspective hopefully.

I had no idea things were that bad in America. As I've recently lost my job, I'm glad I live in a country with a proper social welfare system.

djpbarry

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

What do you mean by more equitable? Do you mean the more you earn the higher the rate of tax or do you mean that the people who are already paying most of the tax shouldn't be required to pay more?

The latter; higher taxes for higher earners discourages people from upping their income, in my opinion.

molloyjh

djpbarry wrote: »

I disagree; our tax system needs to become more equitable, not less so.

To my mind this would be more equitable. I currently pay the higher rate of tax because I can afford to and I have no problem with that. I don't feel the higher band should be reduced or done away with. People earning over 200k can afford the extra tax just as I can afford the extra over and above someone on, say, 20k. Obviously choosing the right rate and salary band is important as you don't want to be too harsh, but there is a level at which people on this money can afford to pay over and above what I can, just as there is a level at which I can afford to pay over and above the level that someone in McDonalds can afford.

djpbarry wrote: »

Maybe, but it would still represent a further (significant) increase in the base cost of doing business in this country.

Which is why a measure like this on its own may well be a bad idea, however coupled with things like maybe capping energy costs and other moves to try and help stimulate the market would balance out the net impact on business.

Basically what I'm saying is a series of co-ordinated measures all forming part of an overall plan is what is required, not the blind panic reactionary and isolated measures taken so far. I don't have all the answers myself, I'm not an economist and I don't have access to all the nessecary info even if I was, but then thats why we have Government and civil servants. Our job as an electorate isn't to solve the problem, but to ensure that our Government does.

hardCopy

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

100% tax on salaries over 250k

What?!

So once my boss makes his 250k he should just keep doing business 'for the craic'?

Or maybe he'll just send everyone else home as soon as he hits the magic number

old boy

i have seen nobody here agreeing on what should be done, cut backs are required, yesterday oaps were complaining because with a income of euro 1400 per couple they would loose their medical cards, f.f.s. an invilaid and their carer have roughly euro 420 per week, thats an income difference of a grand a week, come on folks the bullit has to be bitten but realistically, some one said social welfare has to be cut, it is too generous, tell that to the above couple.

LoveDucati2

irishcarbomb2k wrote: »

let me start off by saying that I am not for any political party and not linked in any way to political life. I am a spectator in this but feel it necessary to let you know whats happening elsewhere. I am writing this message sitting in a Hotel in downtown LA where I spent the last week on business and the week before I spent in Washinton DC and what I have witnessed over here is absolutely shocking compared to back home and if this happened in Ireland, there would be civil war let alone protests in the streets.

Great post!

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

From where and why?

djpbarry wrote: »

How did you arrive at that figure?

Duplication in the civil service is killing our country. The courts service and gardai duplicate each others work.
We have 26 Motor tax, revenue and VRT offices, etc, the HSE has 20,000+ managers, 40,000 nurses, how does that work?

Its the classic 2 people for 1 job. This thread helps.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055502609

thebman wrote: »

This will make people redundant in the public sector which the government has to have the balls to do (they don't BTW, going on current trends).

thebman wrote: »

I don't disagree with you, I just don't think the government have the balls to do it.

Exactly, we need a new government that can make these harsh changes without worrying about stupid polls

djpbarry wrote: »

How should they be elected?

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

We have PR, and what changes to you want to make to the way they are elected.

Sorry I meant PR compared to UK, so we would only need 60-70 TD's

1st past the post, no number 2 or 3 votes, and by proving their competence in their respective fields. A finance minister should be qualified in finance etc.

djpbarry wrote: »

Surely the salary should reflect the calibre of the candidate? Won’t your proposal make it difficult for the public sector to compete with the private sector for top candidates?

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Including consultant surgeons & others who wouldn't work for that amount?

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

So no one can earn over 250k and there is little or no incentive to earn over 100k. Do you want Ireland to prosper or go back to subsistence farming. Have you read Prof. Garvin's book "Why Ireland was so poor for so long"?

hardCopy wrote: »

What?!
So once my boss makes his 250k he should just keep doing business 'for the craic'?

Or maybe he'll just send everyone else home as soon as he hits the magic number

We have to stop thinking about individual gain if we are going to survive, we have 2 billion starving on this planet and living in slums. We need dedicated people who are doing the job to improve their country, not for gain. We do not have top candidates in their now, and €80k is an excellent salary, and one that many of us could live on very happily.

djpbarry wrote: »

So if I'm on 300k per annum, I pay well over 50% income tax, yet someone on the minimum wage pays nothing?

Yes, you still have 150k pa to live on, is that not enough?

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Are you talking about America or Ireland? What Irish firms move jobs overseas and what exactly do you mean by tax cuts for the very wealthy?

Let me see, does DELL ring a bell, do not forget that the taxpayer paid 60% of Dells redundancy bill.

Roll back tax cuts, all tax cuts that were used by the super rich in building projects to be rescinded and tax bills issued instead.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Why and to what end? A lot of what you say seems to be change for the sake of change, and to a certain extent a shake up is needed, but I think there should be a bit more thought put into the changes.

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

I know this is a very brief outline but its more than Brian said at Ard F*ck

Did you not read this on my 2nd post.

Look around you, the world is changing, financial markets are destroyed and the derivative bubble is about to collapse, which will finish in disaster, oil is running out, and the polar caps are melting faster than they thought possible.

djpbarry wrote: »

That's going to be a damn big publication. And who the hell is going to pay to read that crap?

Its not. It is just a way to educate the people. 1 page in the Irish times and you could highlight where the majority of cash has gone, and view current gov appointments and their links.

One positive point is the public have finally woken up to whats been going on, they have been lied to for years by the Gov, church, Bankers, Gardai, all the people we were forced to respect growing up.

cm2000

bmaxi wrote: »

.
Gordon Brown has said the British Government is determined that Sir Fred Goodwin will not draw down his full pension because he "fu**ed up" big time, this may seem small apples in the greater scheme of things but the symbolism will not be lost on the British public. Something similar needs to come from Cowen.

last time i checked the Tories were 20 points ahead of Labour in the polls, so it seems like it is lost on the British public. Just shows that irrespective of what leaders do or say sometimes they're going to get hit anyway

Naz_st

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Great post!
Duplication in the civil service is killing our country. The courts service and gardai duplicate each others work.
We have 26 Motor tax, revenue and VRT offices, etc, the HSE has 20,000+ managers, 40,000 nurses, how does that work?

Its the classic 2 people for 1 job. This thread helps.

Agree.

We have to stop thinking about individual gain if we are going to survive, we have 2 billion starving on this planet and living in slums. We need dedicated people who are doing the job to improve their country, not for gain. We do not have top candidates in their now, and €80k is an excellent salary, and one that many of us could live on very happily.

We should have higher taxes on higher earners, as obviously they can afford to pay more, but this idea of 100% tax is just utter nonsense. Why 80k? Sure 50k is a grand salary let's make sure no one earns more than that! This is so wrong on so many levels I hardly know where to start. I'll just mention 2 that spring to mind straight away:
1) Emigration. All the top people will simply emigrate to a non-communist leaning state.
2) "...we have 2 billion starving on this planet and living in slums. We need dedicated people..." for this I will point out that the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation is one of the biggest charitable organisations in the world with an endowment of ~$35 billion and is helping the starving on the planet in measurable ways. How do you think Bill Gates would have been able to put together such an organisation if his salary was capped at 250k???

hardCopy

Naz_st wrote: »

2) "...we have 2 billion starving on this planet and living in slums. We need dedicated people..." for this I will point out that the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation is one of the biggest charitable organisations in the world with an endowment of ~$35 billion and is helping the starving on the planet in measurable ways. How do you think Bill Gates would have been able to put together such an organisation if his salary was capped at 250k???

If Bill Gates salary was capped at 250k he never would have even bothered building Microsoft into the global company that it is now, which employs so many people.

Our priority should be reducing public expenditure and creating jobs. Not punishing employers.

LoveDucati2

Sorry guys, my point is that we have to stop thinking this way if we want a future.

The financial markets are doomed, greed does not work.

Where are the 250k earners gonna go?

Naz_st

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Sorry guys, my point is that we have to stop thinking this way if we want a future.

The financial markets are doomed, greed does not work.

Where are the 250k earners gonna go?

Thinking what way? What do you mean "where are the 250k earners going to go?". Do you think that rest of the world is suddenly going to drop capitalism completely and adopt some sort of demonstably unworkable proto-communism?
You are simply not making any sense.

djpbarry

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Sorry I meant PR compared to UK, so we would only need 60-70 TD's

1st past the post, no number 2 or 3 votes…

Again, I have to ask why this would be a better system for Ireland? I’m open to the idea of fewer TD’s, but why scrap our electoral system?

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

…and by proving their competence in their respective fields. A finance minister should be qualified in finance etc.

So who gets appointed Minister for Health if no doctors or nurses have been elected?

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

We have to stop thinking about individual gain if we are going to survive, we have 2 billion starving on this planet and living in slums. We need dedicated people who are doing the job to improve their country, not for gain.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but “individual gain” is what drives most people to succeed and, ultimately, drives the economy.

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

We do not have top candidates in their now, and €80k is an excellent salary, and one that many of us could live on very happily.

That’s not the point really, is it? Anyone on €80k is not going to have a tremendous amount of motivation to better themselves if they’ve already hit the jackpot, so to speak. As Naz_st has already pointed out, it is quite likely that we would experience a pretty severe brain drain.

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Yes, you still have 150k pa to live on, is that not enough?

Once again, you’re missing the point. Someone on €300k pays more than half their salary to use the same services that someone on the minimum wage pays nothing to use. How is that fair?

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Let me see, does DELL ring a bell…

Dell is not Irish. Rolling back “tax cuts” for Dell (I don’t know what tax cuts you are referring to) won’t affect them if they don’t operate in this country.

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Roll back tax cuts, all tax cuts that were used by the super rich in building projects to be rescinded and tax bills issued instead.

I could be wrong, but I would imagine there are legal issues involved in applying tax increases retrospectively.

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Its not. It is just a way to educate the people. 1 page in the Irish times and you could highlight where the majority of cash has gone, and view current gov appointments and their links.

Most of what you speak of would already be covered in the Times. Problem is, most people in this country don’t buy it (never mind read it).

molloyjh

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Duplication in the civil service is killing our country. The courts service and gardai duplicate each others work.
We have 26 Motor tax, revenue and VRT offices, etc, the HSE has 20,000+ managers, 40,000 nurses, how does that work?

Its the classic 2 people for 1 job. This thread helps.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055502609

While I agree that reviews need to take place in all areas within the public sector calls for blanket cuts and random figures like that make no sense. ach area needs to be reviewed and cuts/restructuring etc need to be implemented as needed to ensure value for money without serious reduction in service.

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Exactly, we need a new government that can make these harsh changes without worrying about stupid polls

You want the Government to do the right thing despite the polls? Never going to happen. I would also be more worried when the people are demanding that the Government do the right thing while also contributing to polls which suggest the opposite. It says as much about us as a people as it does about our elected officials.

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Sorry I meant PR compared to UK, so we would only need 60-70 TD's

1st past the post, no number 2 or 3 votes, and by proving their competence in their respective fields. A finance minister should be qualified in finance etc.

While I agree we are over-represented I do not completely agree with the qualifications piece. A minister is little more than a manager. It's the civil servants that need the qualifications.

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

We have to stop thinking about individual gain if we are going to survive, we have 2 billion starving on this planet and living in slums. We need dedicated people who are doing the job to improve their country, not for gain. We do not have top candidates in their now, and €80k is an excellent salary, and one that many of us could live on very happily.

Lovely utopian ideal but wholly lacking in any form of reality. Human nature cannot be ignored that easily. Capitalism works far better than any other form of economics because it takes into account human nature, not despite it.

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

Let me see, does DELL ring a bell, do not forget that the taxpayer paid 60% of Dells redundancy bill.

Roll back tax cuts, all tax cuts that were used by the super rich in building projects to be rescinded and tax bills issued instead.

You cannot retrospectively charge tax. And even if you could we shouldn't because all that would do is scare away foreign investment.

You're suggestions seem to be targeted at those who are getting it in the neck most in the media and are all destructive suggestions. What's the overall strategy? Make the rich pay, pay, pay? That's not going to solve anything.

molloyjh

LoveDucati2 wrote: »

One positive point is the public have finally woken up to whats been going on, they have been lied to for years by the Gov, church, Bankers, Gardai, all the people we were forced to respect growing up.

Government - we have been lied to by Governments for decades. We've known it for almost as long. So whats new now? And who do you think put the current ones where they are now? They didn't get there by themselves.

Bankers - how did "the bankers" lie to you? As though they are all one big organisation!? Come on, give me a break from this conspiracy theory cr*p. We were all happy enough to avail of the cheap credit over the years and now we're b!tching about it because its gotten us in hot water. Talk about hypocracy!

Gardai - how have the Gardai lied to us? Far enough not everyone in the Gardai is perfect, but I challenege you to name a profession that is any different. The Gardai by and large are far better people than most putting themselves out there to look after us and this is the thanks they get?

This isn't all a big conspiracy. Take Mulder and Scully off speed-dial there please. We all had a hand in this, now stop pointing fingers and lets figure out a way out of it together.