People power?

peasant

Not being familiar with the Irish constitution, is there any legal way (i.e not a general strike or an army coup )for the people to unseat the governement?

Could we all sign a petition to the president or something and make them go away, force new elections?

sceptre

I haven't been counting but I think this is about the fifth thread in the past few weeks asking pretty much the same question. Short answer is no. Long answer is the same.

I have to say though, that if I was Taoiseach and opinion polls put support level for my government as low as the current one has, I'd either be considering my position carefully or be telling everyone exactly why they should keep me (and "you voted for me" wouldn't be a line I'd be trotting out). Then again, I've high personal standards when entrusted with anything.

Darragh29

peasant wrote: »

Not being familiar with the Irish constitution, is there any legal way (i.e not a general strike or an army coup )for the people to unseat the governement?

Could we all sign a petition to the president or something and make them go away, force new elections?

There is nothing illegal or indeed immoral about a general strike. The only way this government is doing to be taken off the pot is for people in this country to start getting out onto the streets on a workday, and stay there until this government stand down. That's how it happens everywhere else, in Iceland, The Phillipines, and that is what is required here...

gurramok

Won't happen unless..

There is serious party dissent within FF as well as the Greens walking away so the FF led govt lose the confidence of the Dail.

You can think of all the revolutions one can think of, but FF are there to stay until 2012 as we the electorate put them there in 2007.

Sadly, FF can ride this out until the next election as thats the legal way to do so.(bar a mutiny by the Defence forces )

Darragh29

gurramok wrote: »

Won't happen unless..

There is serious party dissent within FF as well as the Greens walking away so the FF led govt lose the confidence of the Dail.

You can think of all the revolutions one can think of, but FF are there to stay until 2012 as we the electorate put them there in 2007.

Sadly, FF can ride this out until the next election as thats the legal way to do so.(bar a mutiny by the Defence forces )

There is a serious showdown on the horizon here. There is a national strike set for the 30th March.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0224/economy.html

Between now and then, I can see people just getting more angry as more jobs are lost and more scandals come from the banks...

gurramok

Darragh29 wrote: »

There is a serious showdown on the horizon here. There is a national strike set for the 30th March.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0224/economy.html

Between now and then, I can see people just getting more angry as more jobs are lost and more scandals come from the banks...

Yes people are angry.

That national strike is mostly by public sector unions who form less than 20% of the workforce so it ain't widespread as one would think.

I'm a member of a private sector union, we won't be going on strike!

Maybe what it will need to get serious is a PAYE strike similar to the one donkeys years ago where 700,000 marched.

Darragh29

gurramok wrote: »

Yes people are angry.

That national strike is mostly by public sector unions who form less than 20% of the workforce so it ain't widespread as one would think.

I'm a member of a private sector union, we won't be going on strike!

Maybe what it will need to get serious is a PAYE strike similar to the one donkeys years ago where 700,000 marched.

We need to get to a place where everyone is participating in a national strike. I am not even in a union, I'm self employed and I marched this day last week.

Pride Fighter

There are 2 ways of the government being brought down. The government can lose a vote of no confidence. The other way, which I found out recently involves over half the seanad and 1/3 of the TD's can defeat a bill, it is an obscure article in our constitution.

gurramok

Darragh29 wrote: »

We need to get to a place where everyone is participating in a national strike. I am not even in a union, I'm self employed and I marched this day last week.

It will have to be very serious for that to happen and not just a strike over 'what they are taking out of our pockets strike'.

What we're going through is similar to what the UK went through after the 1992 general election.
John Major made sure to serve out his term until 1997 despite been the most unpopular party/country leader just a year later.

Nothing can be done on a party that promises empty promises and in our case needs FF td's ala medical card style lobbying to vote against the govt.

Darragh29

One thing is sure, as long as we have this government, things are just going to get worse and worse and worse. It's really up to us, how long it's going to take for this to sink in and for us to deal with it.

sceptre

Pride Fighter wrote: »

The other way, which I found out recently involves over half the seanad and 1/3 of the TD's can defeat a bill, it is an obscure article in our constitution.

I'm sorry, what? Are you confusing it with the ability in the pre-1937 constitution of 40% of the Dail or a majority of the Senate to suspend legislation for 90 days during which a 60% majority in the Senate or 5% of all registered voters could request a referendum on the issue? Because that hasn't been a possibility for the past 71 years and two months. I think someone's been leading you on.

AlekSmart

I suspect this needs to be referenced to the numbers of TD`s and Ministers who are coming within spitting distance of a bit of an oul pension.....count them !!

Pride Fighter

sceptre wrote: »

I'm sorry, what? Are you confusing it with the ability in the pre-1937 constitution of 40% of the Dail or a majority of the Senate to suspend legislation for 90 days during which a 60% majority in the Senate or 5% of all registered voters could request a referendum on the issue? Because that hasn't been a possibility for the past 71 years and two months. I think someone's been leading you on.

Article 27 of the constitution

Article 27

This Article applies to any Bill, other than a Bill expressed to be a Bill containing a proposal for the amendment of this Constitution, which shall have been deemed, by virtue of Article 23 hereof, to have been passed by both Houses of the Oireachtas.

1. A majority of the members of Seanad Éireann and not less than one-third of the members of Dáil Éireann may by a joint petition addressed to the President by them under this Article request the President to decline to sign and promulgate as a law any Bill to which this article applies on the ground that the Bill contains a proposal of such national importance that the will of the people thereon ought to be ascertained.

2. Every such petition shall be in writing and shall be signed by the petitioners whose signatures shall be verified in the manner prescribed by law.

Taken from this link http://www.taoiseach.gov.ie/upload/static/256.htm

solas

the only thing that could be worse than having Brian Cowen as Taoiseach would be handing the role to Enda Kenny. Jumping from the frying pan into the fire. If Bertie was still in power the majority of people (or the ones who've done well over the last decade under) wouldn't be moaning about the current state of affairs, they'd just be more accepting of the stormy weather and go put their wellies on. (cuz none of this could be bertie's fault, it's just that the world economy has gone tits up and we just have to wait for things to get better everywhere) Its all just a state of mind.

sceptre

Pride Fighter wrote: »

Article 27 of the constitution

Article 27 gives the president final call on whether to sign or delay a proposal of such national importance that the will of the people should be ascertained until after a referendum (to be held within 18 months) or after a general election. It doesn't give the TDs and senators the right to stop a bill or to bring down a government.

I can see where you're going with this but article 27 doesn't stop legislation and on its own doesn't actually bring down a government so you're jumping through a few very unlikely hoops to even approach the result you'd like (as long as the government (or technically the Taoiseach) retain(s) the support of a majority in Dail Eireann they don't have to go unless they want to). I'll withdraw the remark about someone you leading you on though.

Darragh29

solas wrote: »

the only thing that could be worse than having Brian Cowen as Taoiseach would be handing the role to Enda Kenny. Jumping from the frying pan into the fire. If Bertie was still in power the majority of people (or the ones who've done well over the last decade under) wouldn't be moaning about the current state of affairs, they'd just be more accepting of the stormy weather and go put their wellies on. (cuz none of this could be bertie's fault, it's just that the world economy has gone tits up and we just have to wait for things to get better everywhere) Its all just a state of mind.

I can't let this one go. We have elected and paid hansomly, the same government to run this country for the last 15 odd years. The people we trusted to do this are responsible for this disaster we are in. I run my own business. If I don't file P30, P60 or VAT3 forms, or don't comply with CRO filing requirements, or if I file an incorrect tax return or misrepresent the financial situation with regard to my company, I'll end up in jail. If I don't pay my tax, after a few short months, a revenue sheriff will turn up at my door, take goods, stock, or equipment to the value of what they estimate that I owe them, and sell it to pay the debt!

Now I'm expected to run with a story now in 2009 that those at the very top levels of the banking system, who are paid millions in basic pay a year before bonuses, are not regulated, are not monitored, are not made to comply with any legislation and can basically do what they want, and then I'm asked to further run with the notion that because they were not supervised and not regulated, like my business is, and the country is basically now ruined financially, that nobody is politically responsible for all of this???

And I'm not listening to the argument that the bankers were all at the same crap in the UK and the US. We elected the same government here to protect the common good, to manage the economy, and when it comes to small operators like me, I can tell you one f*cking thing for certain, by Jesus do these people know how to micromanage your business and make you comply, even if you are not even in a position to do so!

But if you part of the wealthy elite, different rules apply, this is and has always been the problem with this country. Fianna Fail are a part of this corrupt black hole of greed and favouritism in Ireland as as long as they are running the country, this is what we will get, corruption, greed and favouritism.

solas

Darragh29 wrote: »

I can't let this one go.

Dn't get too peed off with me, their was a touch of sarcasm in the comment you highlighted. I was simply stating that when people had money in their pockets they were quite happy to continue re electing the same Govt again and again.

We have elected and paid hansomly, the same government to run this country for the last 15 odd years. The people we trusted to do this are responsible for this disaster we are in. I run my own business. If I don't file P30, P60 or VAT3 forms, or don't comply with CRO filing requirements, or if I file an incorrect tax return or misrepresent the financial situation with regard to my company, I'll end up in jail. If I don't pay my tax, after a few short months, a revenue sheriff will turn up at my door, take goods, stock, or equipment to the value of what they estimate that I owe them, and sell it to pay the debt!

Now I'm expected to run with a story now in 2009 that those at the very top levels of the banking system, who are paid millions in basic pay a year before bonuses, are not regulated, are not monitored, are not made to comply with any legislation and can basically do what they want, and then I'm asked to further run with the notion that because they were not supervised and not regulated, like my business is, and the country is basically now ruined financially, that nobody is politically responsible for all of this???

And I'm not listening to the argument that the bankers were all at the same crap in the UK and the US. We elected the same government here to protect the common good, to manage the economy, and when it comes to small operators like me, I can tell you one f*cking thing for certain, by Jesus do these people know how to micromanage your business and make you comply, even if you are not even in a position to do so!

But if you part of the wealthy elite, different rules apply, this is and has always been the problem with this country. Fianna Fail are a part of this corrupt black hole of greed and favouritism in Ireland as as long as they are running the country, this is what we will get, corruption, greed and favouritism.

I just don't think that forcing an election will resolve these issues, I really don't think there is anyone capable of running the show atm.

mumhaabu

There is one thing that will bring down this government and it is people power. We need to get people onto the streets and if 100,000 people surrounded Dail Eireann and stayed there add in a few music concerts to keep the people happy. This pressure will pay off as the people will not back down and it is a diplomatic imperative for the country now to remove this Fianna Fail government now. Ireland is in grave danger and peceful means must be used.

However if strikes do not pay off there is the nuclear option and while most diplomats and lovers of democracy hate to see violence and guns in politics, we Irish have an engrained history of using Violence as a means to a better future and our state was founded on the gun and survived the Civil War when Free state forces (predeccessor to FG) defeated the IRA (Old FF). If it comes down to an armed rebellion against FF then I will back it as I want a country where our children will not have to Emigrate because some FF politician is happy to take bribes and corroporate with corrupt banks and property developers.

Ireland is now at the highest risk of Civil conflict since the days of the Arms Crisis during the troubles. FF out Now!

peasant

I'm not a great fan of the idea of hundreds of thousands on the street to effect a change of governement. These things tend to draw out and get violent.

Pity, most of us don't have control over when we pay our taxes and just get them deducted. Witholding all taxes until elections are called would be neat.

P. Breathnach

mumhaabu wrote: »

...However if strikes do not pay off there is the nuclear option and while most diplomats and lovers of democracy hate to see violence and guns in politics, we Irish have an engrained history of using Violence as a means to a better future and our state was founded on the gun and survived the Civil War when Free state forces (predeccessor to FG) defeated the IRA (Old FF). If it comes down to an armed rebellion against FF then I will back it as I want a country where our children will not have to Emigrate because some FF politician is happy to take bribes and corroporate with corrupt banks and property developers.

Ireland is now at the highest risk of Civil conflict since the days of the Arms Crisis during the troubles. FF out Now!

I am appalled by this post. One thing that I think would be even worse than our present set of political options is to be governed by an armed mob.

I'd sooner have the IMF, and I don't want them.

BrianD

peasant wrote: »

Not being familiar with the Irish constitution, is there any legal way (i.e not a general strike or an army coup )for the people to unseat the governement?

Could we all sign a petition to the president or something and make them go away, force new elections?

You have (had) the opportunity to vote. One could argue that what is now happening was well on the cards at the last general election. A reasonable person would have forseen that the property bubble would burst. But greedy people are stupid people and we were all were happy to bask in the glow of inflated property prices and ask no questions.

The percentage of the electorate that voted in the last three general elections were quite happy to vote for the policies that have got us into this mess. They were quite happy to vote in a government who gave free medical care to over 70's. A policy that was uncosted and largely unasked for. Why do the electorate complain when it is removed (and for good reason)?

I suppose that nobody could have forseen the speed that the external forces would have moved at but you can't tag that onto the current government.

Perhaps next time round people will exercise their vote and exercise it with more thought. The Government that we have is the Government that we asked for. Not only that, it was a Government that we voted in again and again.

It's a bit "irish" and immature that when things aren't going well that we are happy to suspend democracy.

peasant

BrianD wrote: »

You have (had) the opportunity to vote.

I don't actually, but that's a different story.

It's a bit simplistic though to just say "you voted for them, now grin and bear it", isn't it?

The result of the last elections wasn't exactly a FF landslide, so to act as if the whole country gave them a resounding yes is a bit far fetched.

But be that as it may, both the opinion polls as well as the collective "expert opinion" out there show that at the moment there is no confidence in the governement whatsoever. They are (yet again) not tackling the issues but electioneering, conducting damage control not for the country but for their party and friends.

This has to stop now, not after the next elections ...and everybody knows it.

ART6

BrianD wrote: »

You have (had) the opportunity to vote. One could argue that what is now happening was well on the cards at the last general election. A reasonable person would have forseen that the property bubble would burst. But greedy people are stupid people and we were all were happy to bask in the glow of inflated property prices and ask no questions.

The percentage of the electorate that voted in the last three general elections were quite happy to vote for the policies that have got us into this mess. They were quite happy to vote in a government who gave free medical care to over 70's. A policy that was uncosted and largely unasked for. Why do the electorate complain when it is removed (and for good reason)?

I suppose that nobody could have forseen the speed that the external forces would have moved at but you can't tag that onto the current government.

Perhaps next time round people will exercise their vote and exercise it with more thought. The Government that we have is the Government that we asked for. Not only that, it was a Government that we voted in again and again.

It's a bit "irish" and immature that when things aren't going well that we are happy to suspend democracy.

As for mumhaabu - you are the epitomy of the immaturity I refer to. Did you exercise your vote in the last election?

Of course a reasonable person should have seen at the last general election that the property bubble would burst, particularly since all the symptoms echoed those in the UK in the early nineties. However, that reasonable person, being a voter rather than a politician, was offered a choice of four parties none of which seemed to be saying anything in warning. I might be wrong but I don't recall any of them saying "Hey, watch out. Trouble brewing" So the voter was neither warned nor offered a political policy to deal with it in spite of the fact that a number of economists were already sounding the warning.

I agree that it's possible to argue that the people were greedy and stupid, but I would counter that by suggesting that the people could reasonably expect that their elected leaders had access to much more information than they could ever have, and when those leaders were spending money like water and telling everyone that everything was grand, is it that surprising that the people believed them?

A simplistic view perhaps, but it seems to me that running a country is much like running a family or a business. In the good times, stash away a reserve fund for the bad times that will inevitably occur sooner or later. FF did just the opposite, and the other parties seemed to me to be demanding even more imaginative ways of spending rather than opposing the governments policies. Therefore, we aren't going to solve the current problems by getting rid of FF in favour of FG, Greens, SF et al since none of them had any concept of prudent budgeting, and they still don't have.

Darragh29

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I am appalled by this post. One thing that I think would be even worse than our present set of political options is to be governed by an armed mob.

I'd sooner have the IMF, and I don't want them.

We'll see how you feel about it when you go to collect your pension and the girl behind the counter shrugs her shoulders at you and says the cash in transit van never arrived that morning, because this is the direction we are heading in.

I don't support armed action, but something has to be done to get rid of this government before the country ends up on Ebay.

BrianD

peasant wrote: »

I don't actually, but that's a different story.

It's a bit simplistic though to just say "you voted for them, now grin and bear it", isn't it?

I don't agree - this is how democracy works. Nearly every democratic system has a defined period of government for those that we elect.

The result of the last elections wasn't exactly a FF landslide, so to act as if the whole country gave them a resounding yes is a bit far fetched.

True and indeed many people didn't vote and were happy to allow others decide who would govern them. AT the same time. suuficent people voted for FF to allow them form a coalition government.

But be that as it may, both the opinion polls as well as the collective "expert opinion" out there show that at the moment there is no confidence in the governement whatsoever. They are (yet again) not tackling the issues but electioneering, conducting damage control not for the country but for their party and friends.

One does not govern by opinion polls. You govern on the basis of presenting a manifesto for government and getting a vote on the basis of that promised policy. The bottom line is that quite often necessary policies will not be popular but have to be done. It's the same in business. It's not unsurprising that when a government has to make tough decisions that their popularity will wane.

This has to stop now, not after the next elections ...and everybody knows it.

You can't have pick and mix democracy. There is only one way out - the government asknowledges public opinion and capitulates or loses some dail votes or sufficient deputies defect from the government that will bring about a change or you wait till the next election. If one were your approachthen you would have to accept that any change of government by whatever means would be justified.

My take is that it will be nigh on impossible for any new government to undo the damage of the last ten years within a 5 year term. Let's face it we don't have that much economic activity left in this country. We are struggling to find a competitive edge or even a niche.

ART6 wrote:

I agree that it's possible to argue that the people were greedy and stupid, but I would counter that by suggesting that the people could reasonably expect that their elected leaders had access to much more information than they could ever have, and when those leaders were spending money like water and telling everyone that everything was grand, is it that surprising that the people believed them?

Everybody has a voting franchise and it is up to them to inform themselves when making a voting decision. I would contend that if one would have examined FF policies that they would have seen problems. For example, if the property bubble were to burst what policies did the FF party have to foster and develop other economical activity and so on. If we were going to grant Over 70's free medical care, how was it going to be funded ...

Art6 wrote:

simplistic view perhaps, but it seems to me that running a country is much like running a family or a business. In the good times, stash away a reserve fund for the bad times that will inevitably occur sooner or later. FF did just the opposite, and the other parties seemed to me to be demanding even more imaginative ways of spending rather than opposing the governments policies. Therefore, we aren't going to solve the current problems by getting rid of FF in favour of FG, Greens, SF et al since none of them had any concept of prudent budgeting, and they still don't have.

I wholeheartedly agree and it was evident in Government policy. I too am unconvinced if the alternative parties would have just have continued where FF left or embarked on a different course. Embarking on a different course would have meant that the party was over and this would have made them an unpopular bunch.

Darragh29 wrote:

I don't support armed action, but something has to be done to get rid of this government before the country ends up on Ebay.

I would contend that we've been on eBay for some time. You just didn't do a search!

Anyway, I am giving you the Irish Army in the morning. What do you plan to do and who are you putting in?

P. Breathnach

Darragh29 wrote: »

We'll see how you feel about it when you go to collect your pension and the girl behind the counter shrugs her shoulders at you and says the cash in transit van never arrived that morning, because this is the direction we are heading in.

I don't support armed action, but something has to be done to get rid of this government before the country ends up on Ebay.

Is this an adequate answer to my saying that I don't want this country run by an armed mob? To date, the most frequent cause of pensions not being paid is the activity of armed mobs.

It is time people stopped posting inflammatory nonsense.

Darragh29

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Is this an adequate answer to my saying that I don't want this country run by an armed mob? To date, the most frequent cause of pensions not being paid is the activity of armed mobs.

It is time stopped posting inflammatory nonsense.

There is nothing inflammatory about it. We are heading towards default. Default means the government cannot pay current liabilities like your pension.

The trouble with this country is that people like yourself only get out of the armchair and protest when your own interests are directly threatened. Until that happens, you don't act.

P. Breathnach

Darragh29 wrote: »

There is nothing inflammatory about it. We are heading towards default. Default means the government cannot pay current liabilities like your pension.

The trouble with this country is that people like yourself only get out of the armchair and protest when your own interests are directly threatened. Until that happens, you don't act.

Let's see: I objected to a post where somebody said that he was prepared to take violent action, and you bring the discussion here.

I suggest that you withdraw your personal attack on me.

sceptre

Darragh29 wrote: »

The trouble with this country is that people like yourself only get out of the armchair and protest when your own interests are directly threatened. Until that happens, you don't act.

No, the trouble with this country is that most people are happy to roll along with the gravy train until they reckon something happens that might negatively affect them. Then they suddenly get an interest in politics.

The trouble with this board is that people are far too up for saying things like "people like yourself" when other people disagree with them as if it's some personal slap in the face. That's unfair, unwarranted and against the rules as you well know. Knock it off. Or else I'll have to.

Moving on...

Riots? Armed rebellion? Violence as a means to a better future? The gunky residue of the last few times people in this country regarded armed rebellion and violence as a means to a better future are barely drying down the inside leg of this state and people are seriously touting a return to the way of the gun as a way forward? I may be a democracy-loving kitten but like it or not (and as it happens, I don't like it), under two years ago, the people of this state voted in a government in fair elections, with no duress to vote for any particular party and even with my active dislike for the current administration, anyone taking up arms against the state will have to shoot me first. You want to change the rules? Fine, vote in someone who's willing to change them. Can't find someone like that? Run yourself.

Good lord people, get a grip. Post smart, not silly and stop posting personal attacks on each other. It makes the rest of your views look idiotic when you do.