Beware the low paid - Lenihan is coming for you.

newname

Evening,

Brian Lenihan has said he wants those outside the tax net brought back in. He was on the radio this morning saying everyone will have to pay.
How is that going to help the country? Will it not just mean people will spend less and prolong the resession.

I think himself , Mary Coughlan and Cowan are useless.

mikemac

I know a lot of debate is given to the difference between minimum wage and social welfare rates.
If people on low wages are going to be taxed then maybe the job seekers rate will have to be reduced too.
As this tax is another disincentive for people to work hard for low pay when a range of benefits are available if they don't.

Mr.Micro

newname wrote: »

Evening,

Brian Lenihan has said he wants those outside the tax net brought back in. He was on the radio this morning saying everyone will have to pay.
How is that going to help the country? Will it not just mean people will spend less and prolong the resession.

I think himself , Mary Coughlan and Cowan are useless.

I would not worry too much about what Lenihan says, it sounds good for the party faithful. Will there be any jobs left to tax people on?

thebman

I've been saying it for a while that this needs to happen. We can't afford our budget for the year so more people will have to pay and social welfare will need to come down.

As well as those on the current minimum wage being taxed, they'll need to reduce the minimum wage itself.

I don't think people realise the painful economic times that lay ahead for this country and its people.

Whats most horrible is that it is the new generation of people that have graduated that never fully enjoyed the benefit of the celtic tiger (hate that term) that will be paying for it for their lifetime. Those are the people I have pity for, not the people that will lose the homes they couldn't afford in the first place that made the mistakes that the new generation is expected to pay for.

Ireland sold out its children.

PeakOutput

i dont think this is a good idea

i would say that raising the minimum taxable income by a little and raise the threshold of the current higher tax bracket and then increase both rates of tax. if done right i reckon it could stimulate spending and increase the goverments take

social welfare definitely needs a serious look also. should people be able to spend more than 3/4 years on the dole with no disabilities preventing them from working?

nesf

Look at our European neighbours. They in general start paying tax far easier income wise than we do. Realistically we no longer have the tax revenues coming in that allow us to leave so many not pay income tax.

Obviously if we can avoid taxing the worst off we should, but we need to seriously rethink our income tax structure or severely cut expenditure to match our present tax system. Realistically we need to do a bit of both in the short term and in the medium term either move to a higher tax or lower services environment.

silverharp

newname wrote: »

How is that going to help the country? Will it not just mean people will spend less and prolong the resession.

it doesnt make much difference , the recession/depression will last as long as it lasts. However the gov. gets to choose for now who takes it on the chin. For every low paid worker that the gov. is coming after there are surplus organisations like FAS / IDA / Bord Failte/RTE ..... that get to keep their budgets. Surely you understandand that we are here to service the state, now suck it up:pac:

thebman

Realistically we need to pay tax earlier, pay more of it for others and reduce income and social welfare.

Long term unemployed should be evaluated but realistically now the jobs might not actually be there and if you were previously long term unemployed it is going to be harder to get a job now that the market has recently unemployed people in it so can't cut them off.

Also need to cut services in as many places as possible. Everywhere needs to take a hit and screw the I'll only do if its fair attitude. Everyone will be hit by this.

Darragh29

newname wrote: »

Evening,

Brian Lenihan has said he wants those outside the tax net brought back in. He was on the radio this morning saying everyone will have to pay.
How is that going to help the country? Will it not just mean people will spend less and prolong the resession.

I think himself , Mary Coughlan and Cowan are useless.

For once, I agree with him. EVERYONE should pay tax. The idea that anyone can walk in a public park, use public libraries, use any public facility or service, but only 55% of tax payers are paying for it, is absolutely insane. Everyone should contribute something. Obviously the more you earn the more you contribute, but there shouldn't be a single earner paying nothing.

Nodin

Undoubtedly theres going to have to be a widening of the net, but its going to have to be equitable.

On a general note, I'd wait to see what they actually propose, rather than go on what they come out with at the Ard Fheis. They aren't nessecarily restrained affairs....

Sleepy

Depends on the situation tbh, I don't think someone earning minimum wage that's trying to support themselves on it should be paying tax as it's hard enough as it stands but if you think of all the students living at home with mammy and daddy that are working 25-30 hours a week and not paying any tax at all... (not having a go, I was one of those students myself once - it only gets ridiculous when you're an adult in the working world).

Maybe a system whereby you're taxed at a higher rate if you're sponging off your parents (i.e. tax everyone more but increase the Rental/Mortgage Relief Tax Credits to remove this increased burden on those paying their own way in life) and / or some means of taxing part time workers by only giving them the percentage of their tax free limits relevant to the percentage of their average hours worked per week to a standard 35 hour week...

PeakOutput

Darragh29 wrote: »

For once, I agree with him. EVERYONE should pay tax. The idea that anyone can walk in a public park, use public libraries, use any public facility or service, but only 55% of tax payers are paying for it, is absolutely insane. Everyone should contribute something. Obviously the more you earn the more you contribute, but there shouldn't be a single earner paying nothing.

everybody does contribute

we have relatively low income tax and relatively high taxes on everything else so everyone who buys anything with their money pays stamp duty all that jazz etc contributes its just not as obvious as seeing however much taken off your salary every month

AlekSmart

If people on low wages are going to be taxed then maybe the job seekers rate will have to be reduced too.

There`s no MAYBE about it.
The entire DSFA benefits structure is now unsustainable and becoming worse by the minute.

In my own little world this was typfied for me today when one of my regular customers,a chap who ALWAYS paid the absolute minimum busfare whilst travelling the maximum distance,boarded and shoved a Brand New DSFA Free Travel Pass under my nose.

What`s the problem I hear the people say...well its merely the general point that this young 20 something lad,with a penchant for,and ability to,carry large boxes of Dutch Gold can now travel the length and breath of our fair isle Free of Charge.

Allied to this I have in the past few weeks noticed a considerable amount of such new passes being shown to me by persons...hmmmm....well...."not of this parish".
One Gent proudly displayed his pass and ushered his several children in ahead of him only to react unfavourably when I demurred and advised him of the reality that the Free Travel only covered him and his spouse.

The actual possession of the Free Pass is not the issue for me.
The ACTUAL issue is that the State has lost all control of this single FREE scheme and is now it would appear dispensing its considerable benefit to a far wider number of persons than were envisaged by the architects of it.

At some point some day somebody will be told that the money for "Their" Benefit or Payment has not materialized and will not be there the following week or month either....That event represents the Meltdown which is advancing fast upon us all,but nobody appears to see it ?

Or am I too simplistic about it all ?

Unpossible

newname wrote: »

Evening,

Brian Lenihan has said he wants those outside the tax net brought back in. He was on the radio this morning saying everyone will have to pay.
How is that going to help the country? Will it not just mean people will spend less and prolong the resession.

I think himself , Mary Coughlan and Cowan are useless.

Do you have a link? Maybe he will be closing off loopholes that allow rich people to get off without paying tax or without paying very much of it.

Darragh29

PeakOutput wrote: »

everybody does contribute

we have relatively low income tax and relatively high taxes on everything else so everyone who buys anything with their money pays stamp duty all that jazz etc contributes its just not as obvious as seeing however much taken off your salary every month

Not when it comes to PAYE. Hundreds of thousands of people are currently outside the income tax net. I don't think this should ever have been allowed to happen. If you use public services or facilities provided for from the public purse, then you must contribute. The false sense of absolute entitlement in this country is shocking. Too many people feel that they are entitled to things without making a contribution towards them.

Nightwish

Unpossible wrote: »

Do you have a link? Maybe he will be closing off loopholes that allow rich people to get off without paying tax or without paying very much of it.

It was on John Bowmans coverage of the FF Árd Fheis at 1pm. I presume its on the Radio 1 website.

Sleepy

Unpossible wrote: »

Do you have a link? Maybe he will be closing off loopholes that allow rich people to get off without paying tax or without paying very much of it.

Fianna Fail charge their friends their fair share of the tax burden? That'll be the day...

Unpossible

Sleepy wrote: »

Fianna Fail charge their friends their fair share of the tax burden? That'll be the day...

I forgot I wasn't still living in Finland

old boy

i have a free travel pass, i live 7 miles from the bus stop, 15 mls from the train, what use is it to me.

Kristopherus

old boy wrote: »

i have a free travel pass, i live 7 miles from the bus stop, 15 mls from the train, what use is it to me.

Why not give it back so, and contribute your bit for Uncle Brian?

djpbarry

nesf wrote: »

Obviously if we can avoid taxing the worst off we should, but we need to seriously rethink our income tax structure or severely cut expenditure to match our present tax system. Realistically we need to do a bit of both in the short term and in the medium term either move to a higher tax or lower services environment.

Problem is, there seems to exist a myth in this country that Ireland is a high-tax economy. People demand world-class public services while refusing to pay for them. Changing that attitude is not going to be easy.

thebman wrote: »

Also need to cut services in as many places as possible.

I don’t think we necessarily need to cut services, just clear out the dead wood.

PeakOutput wrote: »

we have relatively low income tax and relatively high taxes on everything else so everyone who buys anything with their money pays stamp duty all that jazz etc contributes its just not as obvious as seeing however much taken off your salary every month

Hmmm. Taxes are concentrated on cars and houses, which is, after all, what the economy has been based on for the last ten years. VAT is not particularly high by European standards.

Akrasia

Darragh29 wrote: »

For once, I agree with him. EVERYONE should pay tax. The idea that anyone can walk in a public park, use public libraries, use any public facility or service, but only 55% of tax payers are paying for it, is absolutely insane. Everyone should contribute something. Obviously the more you earn the more you contribute, but there shouldn't be a single earner paying nothing.

everyone does pay tax, and Ireland has one of the most regressive taxation systems in europe with most taxation coming from sources that don't take into account someone's ability to pay.

This nonsense about 3% of the population paying 60% of the tax is blatant spin, it only takes into account Income tax, and for the richest 1% the service charges that are a huge burden for the ordinary worker don't even make it onto their radar.

If there are to be tax reforms then they should target the rich first, not least because this is the demographic that were responsible for the dire way the state was run over the last decade.

If there is still a shortfall to be made up after we have bled these parasites dry, then there will be a greater willingness for the ordinary people to accept it.

PeakOutput

Akrasia wrote: »

If there is still a shortfall to be made up after we have bled these parasites dry, then there will be a greater willingness for the ordinary people to accept it.

thats a bit of stupid thing to say tbh without these 'parasites' the country would have no business's

having said that yes they should pay more than they are now

DublinWriter

nesf wrote: »

Look at our European neighbours. They in general start paying tax far easier income wise than we do.

By 'easier' I presume you mean 'earlier'?

Yes, they do start paying tax earlier, that's because their costs of living are relatively lower and they're not expected to shell out €60 Hello-Money every time they walk into a GP's surgery.

Darragh29

Akrasia wrote: »

everyone does pay tax, and Ireland has one of the most regressive taxation systems in europe with most taxation coming from sources that don't take into account someone's ability to pay.

This nonsense about 3% of the population paying 60% of the tax is blatant spin, it only takes into account Income tax, and for the richest 1% the service charges that are a huge burden for the ordinary worker don't even make it onto their radar.

If there are to be tax reforms then they should target the rich first, not least because this is the demographic that were responsible for the dire way the state was run over the last decade.

If there is still a shortfall to be made up after we have bled these parasites dry, then there will be a greater willingness for the ordinary people to accept it.

Everyone pays VAT, not everyone pays PAYE or income tax and the notion that we create jobs for people and don't get a red cent in income tax off them is just insane. If you can walk in a public park or visit a public library, then you have to contribute. The sense of false entitlement that has now bedded into this country is frightening.

What sort of a message are we giving people who can use state services and facilities, but not make a contribution towards the provision of these same facilities??? Even if it is only a fiver or a tenner a week, it's still a contribution and can go into the kitty.

I have a guiding principle in business that something given for free is taken as having no real value. If you want someone to appreciate something, they have to pay for it, if it is given for free, then it is almost always taken for granted and it's real value is under appreciated in my opinion.

djpbarry

DublinWriter wrote: »

Yes, they do start paying tax earlier, that's because their costs of living are relatively lower and they're not expected to shell out €60 Hello-Money every time they walk into a GP's surgery.

Possibly because their higher taxes cover the cost of GP visits?

Naz_st

Darragh29 wrote: »

For once, I agree with him. EVERYONE should pay tax. The idea that anyone can walk in a public park, use public libraries, use any public facility or service, but only 55% of tax payers are paying for it, is absolutely insane. Everyone should contribute something. Obviously the more you earn the more you contribute, but there shouldn't be a single earner paying nothing.

+1
The guiding principle of the more you earn the more you contribute makes a lot of sense here. Everyone should pay something, even if it's only 1% at the lowest wage level. Couple this with a higher tax rate at the upper level (or an upper band widening) and you cover everyone in a reasonably fair way IMHO. But if you're going to introduce any tax on the lowest paid (i.e. minimum wage) you absolutely have to address the social welfare payments somehow as it would be just incentivising people not to bother getting a job otherwise.

Akrasia wrote: »

If there are to be tax reforms then they should target the rich first, not least because this is the demographic that were responsible for the dire way the state was run over the last decade.

If there is still a shortfall to be made up after we have bled these parasites dry, then there will be a greater willingness for the ordinary people to accept it.

I agree there should be a higher tax for the higher earners, that the tax breaks on some of the most lucrative industries (bloodstock/horse-racing/artists/property developers etc) should be addressed and that the tax loopholes should be closed where possible. But the notion of "tax the cr*p out of the rich until they're poor" is just blatant nonsense.

And "the demographic that were responsible for the dire way the state was run over the last decade" is known as "the government" (pretty much by defninition). And while it's true that, due to the ridiculous salaries and perks they receive, they are classifyable as "rich", you can't simply blame all rich people for Irelands problems, just this incompetent subset.

knuth

This country is in collapse, period. Tell me why ANYONE earning average wage, putting in over 37.5 hours a week should be taxed further than what they currently are?

Maybe for 2 TD's spending over 100K on a return flight to Texas?
$400 haircuts?
To "bail" out the banks?

It's been a continuous downfall since Bertie's affairs were brought to light. Every month features a new drama scene. Faith has been lost in the Irish community in my opinion.

knuth

The incentive to work is also a joke. Below:

a). A lady choses to work part time whilst her son is in school. Mom tries for a job in retail. The lady gets paid €10 per hour, for five days work, Monday to Friday.

The lady has worked 20 hours in one week and has earned €200.

b). Lady stays on the labour, enjoys her freedom. Also enjoys her medical card. Most medical expenses covered. The Lady takes home €205 a week with a possibility of obtaining earning another €100 per week towards rent.

Do the math.

Darragh29

lordlame wrote: »

This country is in collapse, period. Tell me why ANYONE earning average wage, putting in over 37.5 hours a week should be taxed further than what they currently are?

Maybe for 2 TD's spending over 100K on a return flight to Texas?
$400 haircuts?
To "bail" out the banks?

It's been a continuous downfall since Bertie's affairs were brought to light. Every month features a new drama scene. Faith has been lost in the Irish community in my opinion.

This is the thing, we're hearing report and report after report of 100K plus trips to Texas, not one but TWO government jets that are costing 4,000 Euro a F*CKING HOUR to run, a system of unvouched expenses in the political system that should simply NEVER have been allowed to get off the ground, every day, we hear report after report after report of monumental waste.

I bet if any business person was put in to identify inefficient spending and pure waste, they wouldn't even be out of the car in government buildings and they would have identified 55 Million a day that can be saved in expenditure.

It's gone so far beyond a joke it is not even funny anymore. This government is going to be the cause of the ruination of this country.

knuth

Darragh29 wrote: »

This is the thing, we're hearing report and report after report of 100K plus trips to Texas, not one but TWO government jets that are costing 4,000 Euro a F*CKING HOUR to run, a system of unvouched expenses in the political system that should simply NEVER have been allowed to get off the ground, every day, we hear report after report after report of monumental waste.

I bet if any business person was put in to identify inefficient spending and pure waste, they wouldn't even be out of the car in government buildings and they would have identified 55 Million a day that can be saved in expenditure.

It's gone so far beyond a joke it is not even funny anymore. This government is going to be the cause of the ruination of this country.

Exactly. I think the total cost was €120,000 but let's be generous and say 100k, after all, we're Irish.

Think of it, €100,000 - this could of payed three Gardaí for the year. FOR A ****ING YEAR.

Did you hear the excuses to why they used their jets?

a). Because every country has one
b). It wasn't practical to use any other jet

I'm not getting into anything else, haircuts etc. There's no need. This is only one out of possibly hundreds of flights I'm highlighting.

BTW, Ms Mc Aleese? What are we paying her for? When was the last time she actually done anything for the country? Signing laws? Oh ok, well worth the couple of hundred thousand. :rolleyes:

thebman

djpbarry wrote: »

Possibly because their higher taxes cover the cost of GP visits?

Yes the point is that if you increase us to the same tax levels as other Eu countries then you can't expect the people to also pay these costs that other EU countries don't have to pay I think.

Or that we have these additional costs on top of the taxes.

So there are other factors to consider, it isn't as simple as other EU countries pay more tax than we do, it is a little more complicated because we pay additional costs they don't have to as a result.

nesf

djpbarry wrote: »

Problem is, there seems to exist a myth in this country that Ireland is a high-tax economy. People demand world-class public services while refusing to pay for them. Changing that attitude is not going to be easy.

Indeed.

DublinWriter wrote: »

By 'easier' I presume you mean 'earlier'?

Yes, apologies for the "typo".

DublinWriter wrote: »

Yes, they do start paying tax earlier, that's because their costs of living are relatively lower and they're not expected to shell out €60 Hello-Money every time they walk into a GP's surgery.

They had higher taxes than us when our cost of living was lower than theirs back when this was a low cost country.

holly1

Make Micheal O"Leary minister for Finance and he will squeeze any money out of us punters that he can, and he would without an apology.