BSG Deterioration?

Denerick

I loved the first two series of BSG but have found some of the recent episodes in the last couple of series barely watchable. I think they should go back to the 'titanic struggle' thing rather than all these quasi religious plotlines. Too many cylons running about, wanting peace and freedom one day, mass murder the next, babies the next day, God one day, no God the next... Blah! There's no consistency.

Derek Coleman

I completely disagree. These 4 seasons have been brilliant. The show has evolved from where it begun. 4 seasons of Cylon chasing would be boring.

From start to finish there has never been a more consistant show in terms of quality episodes. Stick to Stargate if you only want a show that deals with the same things week after week.

Now lets never speak of this again!!

Denerick

Stargates crap. I'm a closet trekkie though!

Syferus

Battlestar has changed thoughout its four seasons, but has never been less than compelling.
The changes in tone and setting have always make sense, and the show is better now than it ever was.

Other shows hae lost their way after a few seasons, especially serial based shows like Battlestar, but BSG has remained inventive and consistent throughout.

If you want to see a show that was good and then lost its way, look at Prison Break - for the first two seasons it was a tight, well written thriller, but in efforts to extend its life the creators morphed it into some sort of A-Team/X-Files hybrid, losing much of the danger and momentum that made it good in the process.

Battlestar just doesn't fit the picture you're trying to paint - the religious themes have been promient since the miniseries.

Derek Coleman

Yeah I agree with the above. Many shows have failed to maintain the quality of storyline after a successive first season. I wouldn't put BSG in that category.
If I had the power to go back and change a few things about a show I wouldn't change a thing with BSG. I would have never given HEROES or PRISON BREAK a second season. Both shows would have gone down in history as classics if they had stopped after the first year. LOST's second season was awful because they were promised funding for a long running series and the storyline stalled big time. They recovered in series 3 and are now going strong.
BSG is about as perfect a show as I have seen. I cannot compare it to any other show. 4 years of brilliant storytelling.

IN MY OPINION of course.

bobbbb

I agree. Its gone to absolute sh!t.

I used to realy enjoy this show, but its a chore now to watch it.

Johnny Storm

I agree with the OP that quality dropped off somewhat since the first two seasons and the mini-series, which were of an exceptionally high standard. Since then the writers seemed to loose the run of themselves with several key characters (Starduck, Balthar and Tigh). And whatever happened to the Cylon's cunning "plan"?

I would still consider it overall to be one the very best SF TV shows ever.

Syferus

Johnny Storm wrote: »

I agree with the OP that quality dropped off somewhat since the first two seasons and the mini-series, which were of an exceptionally high standard. Since then the writers seemed to loose the run of themselves with several key characters (Starduck, Balthar and Tigh). And whatever happened to the Cylon's cunning "plan"?

I would still consider it overall to be one the very best SF TV shows ever.

It somehow ran aground when the cylons decided that maybe humans weren't completely evil and should be exterminated, and chose to not destory them but police them at the end of season 2, and then there was the little matter of the cylon civil war that handicapped the faction that still wants to kill the humans happening.

So, yeah, whatever happened to the cylons' cunning plan? It's not like it faded away realistically or anything silly like that.

Oh, and Tigh has been one of the most fantastic characters throughout the series, as has been Starbuck. Baltar's messiah turn if the only part of the three characters' arcs that has not fully stuck.

Overheal

Season 1 - All or Nothing Survival: Absolute Win
Season 2.0 - Run away! Win
Season 2.5 - Take the fight to em'! Win
3.0 - Escape! Win
3.5 - Cruisin'. Kinda Lame. But had some important story-flesh episodes.
4.0 - Rebellion! Win
4.5 - Climax! Win

Season 3 slowed down in comparison to 1 and 2 but taken by itself it was still fairly good. Probably didnt need to be a full 20 episodes, but oh well.

DeVore

I am McLovin' it.

DeV.

BlitzKrieg

Overheal wrote: »

Season 1 - All or Nothing Survival: Absolute Win
Season 2.0 - Run away! Win
Season 2.5 - Take the fight to em'! Win
3.0 - Escape! Win
3.5 - Cruisin'. Kinda Lame. But had some important story-flesh episodes.
4.0 - Rebellion! Win
4.5 - Climax! Win

Season 3 slowed down in comparison to 1 and 2 but taken by itself it was still fairly good. Probably didnt need to be a full 20 episodes, but oh well.

3.5 was more of a *race to earth* then simply cruisin, we had the temple of the five and the reveal that the cylons were looking for earth aswell. and I enjoyed season 3 the most out of the seasons though thats not by alot.

Also I found season 3 to be rather clever in its time managment, they didnt want to waste an entire season on new caprica, but there were alot of important plot elements from new caprica, so they quickly went through the escape from new caprica in the first 5 or so episodes but for almost the entire season that followed, new caprica remained a constant subplot really filling in the impression that they did in fact spend a year on that planet.

Jim

I like the show, but find it very inconsistant throughout all seasons. Some episodes are great and then some are really really awful with bad writing and acting.

The worst thing about the show is the inconsistancies of some of the characters, Roslin being top of the list.

Overheal

her boob cancer maybe traveled up to her brain, or maybe her brains were in her boobs the whole time?

Syferus

Jim wrote: »

I like the show, but find it very inconsistant throughout all seasons. Some episodes are great and then some are really really awful with bad writing and acting.

The worst thing about the show is the inconsistancies of some of the characters, Roslin being top of the list.

And that's what most people who criticise Battlestar fail to realise.
The characters, like people in real life, do stupid, senseless and dumb things. All the main characters are complex and conflicted figures and that's the key to the whole show.

Rented Mule

Syferus wrote: »

And that's what most people who criticism Battlestar fail to realise.
The characters, like people in real life, do stupid, senseless and dumb things. All the main characters are complex and conflicted figures and that's the key to the whole show.

Exactly .....people are flawed and like their makers we are beginning to see the same behaviour in the cylons.

Richard Dower

It's nonsense...they should have kept the Cylons as CYLONS...tin cans, none of this hybrid/human rubbish!!!!

I wanted to see man's fight against the MACHINE!, and i hate the new Cylon ships...the old ones were better.I'll watch the show but i still don't like the direction they took when updating the show.

DeVore

Watch terminator.


I love BSG, its very subtle and a genuine "space opera".

DeV.

Pepe LeFrits

The first two seasons are considerably better than the third and fourth, which have their moments but are nowhere near as consistently excellent.

The convoluted prophecy storyline in particular has completely taken control in season four; far too many episodes are more or less dedicated to just inching this story along and filling in the rest of the airtime with interpersonal mumbo-jumbo.

BSG was best when there was stuff actually happening, and not just people talking.

ghouldaddy07

Richard Dower wrote: »

It's nonsense...they should have kept the Cylons as CYLONS...tin cans, none of this hybrid/human rubbish!!!!

I wanted to see man's fight against the MACHINE!, and i hate the new Cylon ships...the old ones were better.I'll watch the show but i still don't like the direction they took when updating the show.

I think the cylons would of become boring as **** if they had just stayed the evil killing machines for four seasons and I cant think of where they could of taken shot of introducing even bigger evil Resurrection ships.

I liked season 3.5 and season 4 but they feel alot more episodic which hurts the show, examples being the Tigh and Six story, They could have giving us a breif scene's over 5 or so episodes rather than cramming it down our throats in Deadlock.

I think the show would of beniffited from revealing Ellen earlier as it would of alowd the plot to develop more naturally and i think most people were probly sick of the final five mystery by the time she returned.

Still gonna be sad when its over.

DirkVoodoo

What has kept me glued to BSG isn't necessarily the space element (which after the miniseries is all I expected) or the "Nature of humanity" questions it continually pops up, but rather the fact that throughout 4 seasons every action taken by the fleet, be it a mutiny, black market trading, high profile trials or religious division has always felt real. And by real I mean that the choices people make, while not always in keeping with the "good versus evil" stereotype we might like to see, have always seemed like the choices you would expect of the last survivors of an annhiliated civilization with no home and little hope.

I have had many discussions with a friend of mine recently over why Voyager was ****e when compared with the likes of DS9. Whereas DS9 approached some level of truth about how people behave in wartime, voayger never did.

Harry Kim woke up every single god damn day with a smile on his face and never questioned why he was stuck out in the middle of nowhere. No one ever asked why that punk Neelix was suddenly attending every senior staff meeting when some 20 year man stuck at ensign his entire life was being stepped all over. If the seeds for a mutiny, or at least some hostile xenophobia toward Neelix weren't there, then I would call Voyager entirely unbelievable and hence, uninteresting.

Slutmonkey57b

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I have had many discussions with a friend of mine recently over why Voyager was ****e when compared with the likes of DS9. Whereas DS9 approached some level of truth about how people behave in wartime, voayger never did.

Harry Kim woke up every single god damn day with a smile on his face and never questioned why he was stuck out in the middle of nowhere. No one ever asked why that punk Neelix was suddenly attending every senior staff meeting when some 20 year man stuck at ensign his entire life was being stepped all over. If the seeds for a mutiny, or at least some hostile xenophobia toward Neelix weren't there, then I would call Voyager entirely unbelievable and hence, uninteresting.

Voyager was very much more of a Star Trek show than DS9 - Roddenberry's whole ethos for Star Trek was to always show humanity at its best, as a race that had overcome its weaknesses, prejudices, hatreds, and where the future of humanity was bright and positive even in adversity. Voyager was very much of this mould, and while it was less realistic, it was more faithful to Trek than DS9 - The murder of the Romulan ambassador to bring them into a war, for example, would have been not only unthinkable but offensive to what Roddenberry wanted from Trek.

Neelix was an awful **** though.

Syferus wrote: »

It somehow ran aground when the cylons decided that maybe humans weren't completely evil and should be exterminated, and chose to not destory them but police them at the end of season 2, and then there was the little matter of the cylon civil war that handicapped the faction that still wants to kill the humans happening.

So, yeah, whatever happened to the cylons' cunning plan? It's not like it faded away realistically or anything silly like that.

The Cylon's plan, as we have learned recently, has been driven by John, the first of the Cavail model from the start, even blindsiding the other cylons. The new caprica episode and the civil war are examples of the skinjob's individual model traits breaking them apart and causing idealogical rifts that were fed by the continuance of the war, and the mysterious mutterings of the hybrids to the Leobans. Just like the humans, differences of opinion, doctrine and morals have broken out among the cylons, showing another reason why they're not so different after all. Also, don't forget that John has twice destroyed a line of cylon models that have represented a threat to his plan.

Oh, and Tigh has been one of the most fantastic characters throughout the series, as has been Starbuck. Baltar's messiah turn if the only part of the three characters' arcs that has not fully stuck.

The criticism I would have of BSG in series 3 and 4 is that it hasn't done as good a job of fleshing out the individual subplots around the characters as it did initially. Issues brought up in one episode which are affecting a secondary character, or secondary issues affecting a major character, aren't being followed up in subsequent epsiodes, or aren't being tackled as effectively.

bobbbb

The writers have just lost the plot. They've ruined it.

Syferus

Richard Dower wrote: »

It's nonsense...they should have kept the Cylons as CYLONS...tin cans, none of this hybrid/human rubbish!!!!

I wanted to see man's fight against the MACHINE!, and i hate the new Cylon ships...the old ones were better.I'll watch the show but i still don't like the direction they took when updating the show.

People still try to argue the vaguely homosexual 1978 series was anything more than a basic Star Wars kid-friendly cash in?

Wonders never cease.

nhughes100

It's gone seriously downhill, that first episode was brilliant. The moment you saw Boomer on the cylon ship you were hooked. Ever since the Galactica went in to rescue the people on New Caprica the series has been very slow and could have been ended in season 3 quite easily. I'd said it before, nothing much has happened in series 4, there's been 20 episodes. I totally agree with a previous poster that it's becoming a chore to watch it which is sad really as I really enjoyed the first 3.5 parts of it. I couldn't wait to get the first 3 seasons on dvd and now there's no way I'm getting season 4.

MisterAnarchy

It has definitely deteriorated .
Series 1 and 2 were superb,some of the best tv I have ever seen.
Dramatic,suspenseful,high in tension,edgy and unpredictable.
I was always on the edge of my seat watching an episode.
It was fresh and the characters were interesting.
The cylons were ruthless and menacing ,a constant threat and above all they were clever.

Things started to go wrong about 1/3 of the way through season 3 .
The characters became caricatures of themselves and too many one dimensional/boring character were given too much screen time .
The cylons lost their menace and the whole religion aspect took over.
I also think the show jumped the shark with the revelation of the final 4,which was a bad idea.
Alot of episodes were one paced ,illogical and predictable.

To be honest I've had enough of Apollo,Starbuck,Tori and Chief,I'd be happy to never see them again ,they are boring,selfish,whiny children.
Starbuck is the biggest offender,she is a moron.

I suppose it was inevitable that the show would deteriorate ,most shows do and we had 2 excellent series and the other 2 are still decent.

noodler

I do have a certain affinity for Season 2 but deteriorate is a strong word. 4.5 would have been a bit disappoitning without the mutiny arc it has to be said though.

Overall though all the seasons would get 90+% from me, with season 2 getting a few percent more.

DirkVoodoo

MisterAnarchy wrote: »

The cylons lost their menace and the whole religion aspect took over.

I was also a bit miffed with the religious themes at times, especially Baltar's emergence as leader of some monotheistic group.

In the end, would 4 seasons of cylons chasing galactica be fulfilling? Without showing the cylons as an actual race of individuals with differing views and beliefs, where would be the story? You mention one-dimensional characters, but a one-dimensional enemy, hackneyed from every sci-fi show that has gone before it would have ensured BSG was either cancelled or quickly forgotten.

I reckon when people have all 4 seasons on DVD and go back to watch old episodes, they will realise how good the overall story was.

4 seasons of "here come those evil cylons again" would have worn thin by now.

I guess BSG is so layered that it will probably demand repeated viewings.

I think if you make statements like illogical and predictable then you should back them up with examples. Most of the inconsistencies I can see come from the writers deciding that a "Final 5" group of cylons would be part of the original 12 cylon models. This again makes sense, what would 12 cylon models, revealed over the course of 4 seasons to progressively more apathetic "wows" after the initial Boomer reveal, have done to expand the mythology? Ok, so they rebelled and they evolved, that's it, nothing more...boring! It was far more interesting to link earth directly with the evolution of the cylons

bobbbb

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I guess BSG is so layered that it will probably demand repeated viewings.

Nooooo. No way could i be able to sit through the tripe that BSG has become.

iguana

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

In the end, would 4 seasons of cylons chasing galactica be fulfilling?

Just because somebody doesn't like the direction the show took doesn't mean they needed it to be mindless. It's not as if their was only ever 2 plot options out there.

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

I think if you make statements like illogical and predictable then you should back them up with examples.

Fine. It made absolutely no sense that Tigh and Caprica 6 should be in love with each other. He was having some weird sub/dom sex with her when she was his prisoner, he was fantasising about Ellen and trying to come to terms with being a cylon. Then she gets pregnant and they are so in love. She is so heartbroken that he doesn't love her the most that she has a miscarriage? That made no bloody sense.

And Ellen is freaking out that Tigh has slept with one of the 7 cylons as they are their children, like it's all freaky and incesty. But he didn't know he had been responsible for creating 6. Just like she didn't when she slept with Cavill, which should at least have garnered a grossed out shudder from her. And by that logic it's equally disgusting that Tyroll slept with Boomer.

And the whole Callie was sleeping with Hotdog who's really Nicky's father was completely left of field. Callie was unhealthily devoted to Tyroll, she would never have cheated on him. They just wrote that in so that Nicky would no longer be a hybrid and they could go back to focusing on the uniqueness of Hera. It's pretty obvious that the plot was not properly thought through when they created Nicky and then decided to make Tyroll a cylon.

There are so many inconsistencies like that throughout the later series. The plot became too messy and it became obvious that there was never a clear beginning, middle and end in mind when the series was conceived. It's a pity, because it was bloody fantastic show, but it initially suffered from poor pacing which began from the later half of of season 2 and from mid-season 3 onwards the plot became overly convoluted with way too many nonsensical plot holes.

DirkVoodoo

You're spot on Iguana, and all the comments you have made pertain to my final remark. The writers didn't know what they were doing with the cylon models, spawning the mythology of the final 5 and eventually picking 5 from the fleet while writing series 3.

It is my one gripe with the show. On the one hand I like the idea of the final 5 cylons, the revelation ties in perfectly with the nature of humanity. Machines who believed they were people and despised Cylons in fact turning out to be machines themselves. Reminds me of Bladerunner a lot.

But yeah, they didn't have it fleshed out from day one so they had to do a lot of back-tracking and putting out fires, doesn't make for the prettiest or tightest of plots (not as bad as heroes) and you could well say they should have planned this cylon mythology from the start. They are entitled to some license for the sake of good storytelling in my book, without it being too ridiculous, which it wasn't.

User45701

Jim wrote: »

I like the show, but find it very inconsistant throughout all seasons. Some episodes are great and then some are really really awful with bad writing and acting.

The worst thing about the show is the inconsistancies of some of the characters, Roslin being top of the list.

Huh? what inconsistancies and whats wrong with roslin?
and what episode have bad writing/acting?

- i was going to reply to everyone in this topic but there is no point, every reply would just be a copy/paste of me saying "i diagree" i love this show and i really dont get the points people have made and i just disagree - people say they dont like are parts of the show i loved.

Episodes that where not what i expected on the first watch where amazing when i rewatched them.

Overheal

for instance a lot of people seemed to have really loathed the boxing episode in S3 and I enjoyed it. Obviously it was sad to see the raw action from the first and second seasons take a backseat but they got a lot done in the third season, including the new caprica stuff, then the aftermath of that, and even started introducing us to the cylon side of the story. By the time the 4th season comes around There wasn't a whole lot of need or reason for the repetitive action/viper sequences, save for one or two key plot points.