Once-sublime relationship hits the 'kids' iceberg

LegacyUser

And when I say 'once-', I mean less than three weeks ago. Huge thanks to anyone who can bear with me all the way through this post, since there are quite a few kinks to it. If you're not in the mood for a LONG read, be sure to give this a miss. Apologies in advance, also, for going into tortuous detail over something which has probably cropped up on these boards many times before, in one form or another.

I'm 26. I am... was... in a long distance relationship that has lasted 1.5 years so far.

Previous to getting with me, this girl was with my old best friend. We all lived and studied in London for a time, and in this manner I've actually known and been good friends with her for like 7 years or more. The two of them - my friend and her - got engaged and relocated to America, until she found out that this friend of mine had cheated on her and was undergoing a religious conversion. Those revelations came within a day of him arriving there to join her. They split, after a chaotic few weeks.

I maintained contact with this girl afterwards because she's fantastic. I tried to help her through the aftermath of that breakup. She helped me through a bad breakup of my own. Eventually, we came to realise we were ideal for eachother and when she subsequently visited London (to see me) we got together properly as an item.

At this point - around Sept-November 2007 - my family relocated to Ireland. I went with them, because my mum needed my help and the only tie I was interested in preserving lay in America. After the move I stayed a little while in Ireland, then 3 months in America with my girl, 3 months Ireland, 3 months USA again - all while we talked over what we wanted to do for the future. A 5 month break after that last visit brings us more or less to the present day, bar some significant developments.

In our time together (so far) we've: sailed a boat down the Shannon, trekked up Glastonbury Tor, been all over London, seen in the new year in Cincinnati, hiked through nature reserves in Ohio in the summer and winter, lived together for 6 months, talked to eachother every day for well over 2 years now, and been friends for longer still... We are very much in love. Even while I've not been with her, we've been in daily contact via webcam. Yet through all of this, we've known that we had our eye on different futures; she has always said she wanted kids in her future, I have always said that I can't see myself wanting them in mine. She's an older 26, but I only recently realised she really wants kids before the age of 30.

In different ways, we both thought these differences could be reconciled. She has always had faith that I would love a kid in the end and that I would come around to the idea. In fairness to her perspective, I don't dislike kids at all; what I dislike are bad, unprepared parents, and I have almost no experience with kids which makes me nervous and unsure of how to deal with them. I, on the other hand, have always thought that she would stay with me, kids or not, and we would both still be happy (plus since we're both young, our parenting options would stay open for a good few years to come). In fairness to my perspective, I am an idiot when it comes to women.

If I'm being honest, I'm also a pretty insecure, controlling person with some self-esteem issues. Whenever the kids issue came up, and it came up many times, in order to steer things towards what I saw as the 'only sensible outcome' - us together, married, no guarantee of kids - I told her exactly what she didn't want to hear. 'I could be a horrible father', 'what if I don't love it', 'what if I end up resenting you both'... Not nice things to say, my very worst fears. More than anything, now, I wish I'd been more measured in my response. She, too, said some pretty absurd things - 'it's not a big thing to ask', 'if we had one, you wouldn't have to do anything, I'd do it all'. Stuff that made me hate the discussion whenever it came up. I love her, but in these conversations it felt like she was trying to trick me, and that she was saying I wasn't good enough to keep her happy just on my own. She would cry to me, but I had these self-obsessed thoughts in mind and didn't challenge myself to change my mindset at all, despite promising at various points to try (apparently - I can't remember these promises well...). We would both say stupid, unlikely things about the future. I turned my parenthood fears into ominous predictions. It doesn't sound very good... but other than in these talks, I think I was... am... a pretty good boyfriend. These talks weighed on our mind but they constituted only a microscopic fraction of our time.

But something still had to give, right? And it did. At the end of last year she told me to drop for a moment all the vague plans we had about job visas, etc. and just come over on a visitor visa-waiver again for 3 months, because she couldn't bear to be without me any longer. I assented and booked a trip for February, due to arrive on Friday 13th, for Valentine's day. When that was being arranged, we had some dark conversations about how this visit had to produce a decision of some kind about our future. I said: 'I don't know if I can stay if it means having to promise kids'. It wasn't a threat - I honestly didn't know, if that was how the choice was framed. But I did know how much she said she needed me, and that statement was intended to try and make her 'compromise' on the issue, which I truly thought she would. Even as she told me otherwise, I thought we could still be happy together without kids... somehow. I also now realise that it was probably untrue to suggest I might not stay with her; wild horses are unlikely to be able to drag me away. But the idea shook her. We agreed we'd leave these heavy matters to be discussed until I got there in person.

February got closer and the dark conversations stopped. Instead they turned into wild anticipation and plans for all the things we would do when I got there again. On Feb 6th I found out why the scary stuff had gone away: somehow, she had got the idea that I'd already decided to have kids with her. I still don't quite know how that happened. I disabused her of this notion, maybe a little harshly at first. When I realised the disappointment she must have been feeling, I felt like someone had stepped on my insides. I repeated that we'd talk about things when I got there. I'd shaken her again, badly.

We make it to Feb 8th before really falling into an abyss. We'd talked earlier in the day and been happy enough. I came back from watching Lost, however, to find her crying and upset on cam. She said she was scared. In plain terms, she also told me the one thing that had not sunk in for me up until this point: If I can't commit to kids, she CAN'T stay with me.

I was devastated. I said the obvious thing - I won't have kids without wanting them, and a desire is not something you can flick on like a switch. I was also angry and hurt, justifiably or not. I saw it as a choice between our happy relationship, versus going back to the drawing board to have hypothetical kids with some hypothetical guy. I'll say it again: I didn't understand women well. I've only had a couple of relationships before this one, both of them so weird and malformed that they could hardly be called relationships. This is the first time a woman has seen me as the potential father for her kids. I didn't realise it was a privilege.

So what then? I was ready to fly out on Friday 13th with a suitcase containing little gifts to her from me and my family. Between the Monday and Friday, through talking to whoever I could find, I succeeded in altering my perspective and realised I had been trying to deny a woman what she most needed out of life, all because I was scared and wanted to play it safe. In the same period of time (Monday-Friday13th), that woman realised something else: that she can no longer trust what I say about the issue, because I've been forced up against a wall. That is key. No matter what I say on the issue any more, she doesn't feel like she can believe it. That's fair - out of despair, I've probably said quite a few unbelievable things already. But for the first time ever, I really want to want the same thing as her.

As Friday drew closer, she tried to persuade me not to come, because it would be too painful having me around while she's thinking what she's thinking. She now believes I really wouldn't be happy as a parent, and consequently doesn't feel happy at the thought of having my kid. She's been vomiting and crying at work. For my part, I did more serious introspection during that week than in possibly my whole life up to that point. I now can't stop thinking what it might be like to be a dad. I can't see a kid without trying to imagine what I'd be feeling if they were my little boy or girl. Having seriously asked myself the question, I don't at all believe I would be a bad dad. I would enjoy being a good one. I'm still scared of the idea, but I believe in myself. I want us to talk about kids and parenthood to see if we can come back to a point where we can both be sure about it. I still don't know 100% if I can commit, but I don't plan to waste significantly more of her time coming to a decision. So despite my girlfriend's pleading, I went to America anyway on Friday 13th to tell her these things; there was too much momentum, I couldn't not go.

The day before I arrived over there, a woman very close to my girlfriend went into intensive care. That lady has since died (in fact her funeral was yesterday, and my girlfriend flew to Florida to attend). My girlfriend has been distraught over that, too. My visit didn't go very well. We cried a lot, talked a little. I spent 9 nights in America instead of the planned 90-odd, most at her friend's flat. Some moves at intimacy left her in tears and me feeling like a pervert and a rapist (although it should go without saying that no rape occurred). Valentine's day weekend, miles from home, in a place I used to be able to think of as my future home, but couldn't any more; my presence making the girl I love so upset that she felt she had to avoid contact with me - it was the loneliest thing ever. Fearful that she was ready to kill the relationship then and there, I sued for a 'break'. We are now going to revisit how we feel about things in '6 months', although we know that it's meaningless to put a time on it since we'll undoubtedly have contact before then.

I've been back in Ireland since Feb 23rd and I'm just broken. I keep crying, can't sleep properly. Her name runs through almost the last decade of my life like letters in a stick of rock. I can't look a fraction sideways without seeing ten things that are connected to her in some way - photos, clothes and things she bought me, memories of good times...

Pretty typical needy frustrated male stuff, most of it... Doesn't stop it being the worst pain in the world. What kills me though is that her own neediness used to eclipse mine, but it's been turned off like a tap since the February 8th conversation. I am finding it impossible to handle the sense of rejection that comes from that. Every night used to contain the promise of some texts or a cam chat with her - we've exchanged a word or two here and there since I got back, but for the most part my inbox stays stale and empty now. Doesn't stop me checking every free minute.

What REALLY kills me is that I seriously think it can still work. The idea that the two of us could possibly have an unhappy future, kids included, just doesn't make sense to me when I think about it seriously; I hate that I've brought us to a point where fear of our own unhappiness has made us irretrievably(...?) unhappy. She says that she loves me, is in love with me and that if she could believe my commitment to kids, everything would be back as it was. She has said 'the only reason I could think of not to leave you was that I love you'. That has to be enough, or else what is? There has to be a way around it. Irrational self-esteem problems no longer make me actively opposed to the idea of having kids. When imagining myself as a dad, I'm no longer denying myself my due credit as a person. I want to talk about it so that we can both find out what I'm capable of. Because my timing is so bad, and self-serving, I don't know how to make her believe this. She repeats the same mantra: 'I can't be with you right now.'

I feel like I need an outside perspective. Have I done the right thing in pushing for a break from the relationship? (Bear in mind this isn't your typical 'break' where one side just wants some freedom to screw other people for a while... she's loyal to a berserk degree.) How often should I talk to her in the meantime, how much space should I give her? How should I act? Is there even a damn thing I can do, apart from try not to go insane? How much of her behaviour right now might be due to past hurt, or bereavement? Any stories of situations similar to my own? Anything you guys can suggest about kids?

Thank you to anyone who took the time to read this. Anyone kind enough to reply should feel no obligation to type nearly as much ;') I'm sorry it's such a very huge post, but it contains more or less my entire life atm. I was already pretty aimless coming out of university and now I no longer have a plan for life that doesn't include her. I'm also very bad at keeping in contact with people and have made no friends in my sporadic time spent here in Edenderry, so the move from London to Ireland has had the effect of leaving me with almost no one who I can talk to, aside from a couple of online contacts. The one person I want like crazy to talk to is too upset to talk to me. If I talk to her I either risk pushing her away forever, or relegating myself back to the 'friend zone' by glossing everything over and making things too casual. I don't know what to do. I'll stop now.

LegacyUser

Phobophobe wrote: »

Irrational self-esteem problems no longer make me actively opposed to the idea of having kids. When imagining myself as a dad, I'm no longer denying myself my due credit as a person.

Does she know the extent of your low self esteem around being a parent?
Have you told her how terrified you have been at the prospect?

If not, then you need to be honest with her. Tell her the real reasons behind your thinking in the past.

starchild

your in a horrible place and i do sympathise with how bad your feeling

however for so long you rebelled against the ideas of having kids & now you want them as a direct result of the two of you not being together

you need to look at it from her point of view, how can she believe you. Im not saying that you have not changed your viewpoint , im saying that it must be very very hard for her to believe it.

you will possibly need to let some time pass so that she can see how serious you are. Also looking at this with no emotion involved i think you to need to know how serious you are & that this sudden change of mind is not down to just losing your partner

ninjasurfer1

Hi OP,
You say she is 26 and wants kids before 30? Does this mean that while you potentially have another few years to ACTUALLY have children with her, the current problem is that she doesn't want to waste those years with you if you don't commit to having them now?
I know you may be nervous about having kids, but to be honest, nobody knows how good a parent they can be before actually having kids. You learn on the job!!! I know I was nervous about the same thing, but having them turned out to be one of the best things i have ever done.

I'd agree with Phobophobe: explain to her your initial misgivings and fear of having kids. At least this shows that you were seriously thinking about the issue rather than complacently going along with her.
Whatever you do, make sure you keep the lines of communication open. Otherwise, you won't know what the other is thinking.

Best of luck!!!!

MT2

I think you should pretty much copy paste what you wrote in your OP and send it to her.

Best of luck.

*Honey*

You told her for so long that you'd be a terrible Dad and she's gone and believed you.

You have a lot of work to do but I think, if she's really for you, you'll do it. Give her time, keep up contact and let her guide you as much as possible. I would also suggest you write a letter, yes an actual letter on paper sent by snail mail, telling her exactly your situation... even writing this post out maybe! I firmly believe that seeing actual handwritten words on paper will have more impact than words on a screen (perhaps I'm just old fashioned).

If she's "The One" and you can see no future without her in it, you owe it to yourself to make it work.

I've also been in a long distance relationship and I know how difficult and stressful it can be.

I wish you luck.

LegacyUser

Hi there, what a time you've had. Having kids is not something that should be taken lightly so well done for giving it some serious thought and wondering if you'd be a good dad. Such a caring attitude tells me you would! I have no experience with children either and am in awe of how people seem to know exactly what to do - but my best friend didn't and she took to it like a duck to water, which gives me great hope for my own future!

Apart from having webcam chats have you ever tried communicating through email or a good old fashioned letter? Because you seriously have a wonderful way of expressing your thoughts in writing. Maybe if you could write all this down for her it would help her understand how you're feeling, as it's plain to me that your besotted with her, and don't hate kids (just fear them a bit!). Maybe she feels an idiot for getting the wrong idea and thinking she can change your mind, or feels bad because she tried to force you into children that she thinks you don't want and has scared you away.

I really believe this is salvagable, it's just essentially a breakdown in communication that kind of spiralled. Will you write to her please?? Tell her your self esteem doesn't allow you believe what a great dad you'd be and you were scared of letting her and future children down. Tell her you just need some reassurance. Good luck.

kaizer05

I wish your girlfriend could read what you have written here OP,i really hope it works out for you

LegacyUser

Thanks for the swift responses, people.

I did indeed try to explain my past hangups and changing thought processes to her while I was there last week. As has been noted, it is just extremely, extremely hard for her to what I'm saying right now as anything other than panic fire. The fact that she uses the words 'right now' is the only small hope I have that this might change. That and the fact that my recent visit happened under terrible circumstances, bereavement and confusion...

She at least knows of my self-esteem problems, if not how deep they are. On almost my very first night to visit her in America, on New Year's Eve 2008, I was grouchy and jetlagged and not the best company. In bed later I broke down in apology, telling her I hoped I wouldn't end up making her miserable. The time since has showed me I won't, at least by dint of my own character.

I don't want to cost her her happiness. That is as scary to me as losing her. I could conceivably cost her that happiness still, either by denying her the opportunity of having kids, or by poisoning her experience of motherhood with doubt/resentment. I don't want that to happen at all. As such I have to tell myself that it's not just fear motivating me to try and salvage this relationship.

I have to keep telling her that, too, I suspect, but it's the balance that seems to be the kicker atm. No communication vs. casual communication vs deep heavy communication... The letter idea has been suggested to me by one other person, and it sounds to be a good one. Should I ask to pay her another visit, in perhaps a month? Two? The more I think about this 6 month stagnancy, the more I think it's just a way for her to imagine me out of her life.

BTW thanks@Unregistered above me. I have tried the odd email, but they were either crazed 6am entreaties typed up as if by a drugged shaman, or they turned into creaking monoliths like my OP. I kind of feel like neither are very good for her, or the relationship, right now. Pithiness might be where it's at.

'Maybe she feels an idiot for getting the wrong idea and thinking she can change your mind, or feels bad because she tried to force you into children that she thinks you don't want and has scared you away.'

She has said both of these things, in almost the exact words. I want to tell her that wanting me to improve myself a little for her was not a stupid thing for her to keep plugging for, no matter how long I failed to budge, nor how untrustworthy I seem for trying to make the change this late.

Zaph

OP, I only wish that all the posts I have to read through before deciding whether to approve them or not were as eloquent and well written as your's. I don't know what your verbal communication skills are like, but it would seem to me that sending your girlfriend a link to this thread may not be the worst thing you could ever do. They say that actions speak louder than words, and your action of starting a thread here to seek help in saving your relationship speaks volumes. So what if it's a creaking monolith, as you describe it, this is a serious issue and deserves to be treated seriously, not condensed into a series of pithy soundbites. Best of luck.

bronte

Write her the letter Op, you clearly love her deeply...you need to give it everything to try make this work.
I know what it's like to fear parenthood too.
I'm nearly 25, and I'm such a bloody perfectionist that I fear I'd never get it right!
I have however turned a corner in the last few years and can see it actually happening to me one day now, whereas before I refused to even consider it.

It's a difficult thing to make yourself face up to, but I really think you have, and I'd hate you to miss out on an amazing future with your GF over lack of communication at this crucial point.

Do the old fashioned thing, write her the letter, and tell her what you've told us.

Good Luck!

LegacyUser

Same unregistered as above, I really should join some day!!

Don't leave it too long, 6 months is an age - she'll be thinking you've forgotten her and moved on. Do the letter thing, or the link to the post as suggested and ask her to contact you straight away. But on the other hand, don't badger her like a crazed stalker either, she sounds pretty traumatised by this too. Say your bit as eloquently as you've done here and put the ball firmly in her court.

Let us know how it turns out if that's appropriate, I'll have my fingers crossed for you!

Walls

There is so much between you two in terms of your lives together, that there is really is no option for you but to keep going. You're a very self aware man who doesn't take for granted the young woman who is committed to you, or the consequences of your actions upon her. Write her a long, detailed letter, giving her the same information you've given to us. And let her know that you are serious about her, about your relationship and about the life you hope to have with her.

Good luck, I wish you well.

P.S. Write immediately, with no delay. The longer you leave it, the worse her imaginings will get.

Wibbs

Zaph wrote: »

OP, I only wish that all the posts I have to read through before deciding whether to approve them or not were as eloquent and well written as your's.

I'd echo that too.

Now this is my humble, but I wouldn't be too quick to link to this thread. Now you know her I don't, but she may be someone who may feel wierd or even pressured by the notion that strangers are privy to your personal lives. If so it could very well backfire. I'm not normally an advocate of letter writing, but would write the letter in this case and see where that brings you both.

The kids thing is the major sticking point(well duh says you:)) and you are going to have to dig deep and figure out if you are prepared to meet her halfway. And of course that hse will do the same.

IMHO Most "breaks" become breakups because the person being left behind does the wrong things in seeking to repair the issues at stake, or becomes overy needy and pushy, which tends to push the other even further away.

People who do get back together for a while often fail again, because the original reason is still there. In this case the children issue. You need to work on that most of all.

FWIW I truly wish you the best as this sounds like a good relationship. Better than many, if your post is anything to go by(And I'm mostly a romantic cynic). I hope it becomes a great one.

Queen-Mise

I am of the opinion of the others above, write a letter to her immediately, with all the thoughts and feelings that you so eloquently wrote here. And then leave it to her to contact you and continue on the relationship.
My husband had a very similar attitude to yourself, was completely against the 2nd child (1st was an accident), and the pup we have at the moment (and he absolutely adores the two of them, its an ongoing joke between us).


And secondly, this is so small compared to your crisis regards parenthood, its not healthy to have no friend like that nearby. Make some effort to go and make some.

LegacyUser

Zaph wrote: »

*snip*

Thanks, Zaph, that's a nice thing to say. My verbal communication skills could be worse, but this isn't the first time where I've typed or thought something to myself and felt as if 'YES! This is EXACTLY what I feel and want to say to her', and then in person all the snot and tears gets in the way, or she'll quote me something I said about having kids that I'd forgotten about, leaving me silent for a second. I would love to be able to just show her something like this and hope that my authenticity showed through. At the same time I'm facing a trap at the moment, where my credibility is shot; I'm scared as hell, as is she, and she's having to digest some of the sentiments in my OP. In essence, I'm now telling her that much of what I've said on a certain issue over the past one and a half years was untrustworthy - constructed in the hope of making her feel a certain way that I wanted (but which I now know was impossible for her). I'm thinking myself in knots over this, for fear that anything I do might look contrived. I'm afraid that actions like linking to forum threads (especially wordy ones with lots to digest) might be a misstep and I am petrified of making any. I will definitely consider it.

ninjasurfer1 wrote: »

Hi OP,
You say she is 26 and wants kids before 30? Does this mean that while you potentially have another few years to ACTUALLY have children with her, the current problem is that she doesn't want to waste those years with you if you don't commit to having them now?

That is another big facet of the current problem. She is as much worried about me blocking her for another few years as she is about having an unwanted, unloved child with me.

bronte wrote: »

Write her the letter Op, you clearly love her deeply...you need to give it everything to try make this work.
I know what it's like to fear parenthood too.
I'm nearly 25, and I'm such a bloody perfectionist that I fear I'd never get it right!
I have however turned a corner in the last few years and can see it actually happening to me one day now, whereas before I refused to even consider it.

It's good to know that I'm not the only person who feels this kind of ambivalence about parenthood. That corner you've turned is one I've found myself suddenly hurtling towards at high speed. All because I trusted my crappy GPS and not my passenger! Or my tyres. I don't know where this metaphor is going any more.

Anyway I think I can pull myself around the corner, despite my fears - I just hope my gf can wait for me long enough to feel the same way. I'll start on a letter tonight, to post off Monday, so that this thread doesn't just become a useless scream into the void.

Thanks also to Walls, Wibbs, queen-mise and Unregistered (again) for your feedback.
@Walls, sadly, my taking her for granted it what has smashed this all up in the first place.
@Wibbs, I'll definitely think carefully about whether or not to link her to this thread. I'll stay focussed on the (hand)written word for the time being. My handwriting stinks though.
@Unregistered - just register and log out for any postings you're not comfortable about having traced back to you... Thanks for the support, 6 months feels unimaginably long for me too atm.

littlecat

Twas me all along. Mind you I had to search my mails and get my password reset seeing as I've never posted as me before.

See you've helped me too!!

(And you get way more cool text options this way:):eek:;))

Get writing that letter, all the best!

Nevyn

The idea of I would be a terrible dad i don't know anythign about kids,
well thing is you can learn a lot of those skills.

Yes it is a daunting as fúck and there is the big responsiblity of not screwing up
another person but there are classes and corses and a whole lot more help
and support then back when our parents were muddling through with us.

Do you have anyone in your life who has kids ?
Nieces or nephews ?
Anyone at all ?
Cos a lot of people due to how small family sizes are these days don't have
any contact with children what so ever in thier lives and they seem like aliens
to them as a result when they are just little people.
Little people who share your dna and that of the woman you love.

You need to find a way to reach a comprimise with her or else let her go.

LegacyUser

Thaedydal wrote: »

Do you have anyone in your life who has kids ?
Nieces or nephews ?
Anyone at all ?
Cos a lot of people due to how small family sizes are these days don't have
any contact with children what so ever in thier lives and they seem like aliens
to them as a result when they are just little people.
Little people who share your dna and that of the woman you love.

You need to find a way to reach a comprimise with her or else let her go.

Good points.

Finding someone I know who has a child is something that has crossed my mind. Unfortunately there's no one I can think of that I wouldn't have to travel hundreds of miles, probably back to England, to see. Even then I'm not sure what kind of pretext I'd use.

Kids do seem quite alien to me. I feel a weird sense of relief whenever a stranger's child does something I find funny, interesting or cute. It's like I'm reassured that the fear/indifference I have long felt towards children is something that can yet be reworked... that those feelings don't run deep.

One person who I can think of who would be able to help me is... my girlfriend. She is my one link to her circle of friends out there in Ohio, some of whom have just become parents (triggering this latest irresistable wave of broodiness in her). I would be prepared to use that as an opportunity to be around and know kids better. However in such a situation I would be under so much scrutiny - 'Is he good with the child? Is he being natural? Is he faking to impress me? What was that expression on his face just then?' - that I can't help feeling some dread at the thought. I really want to know and get comfortable with the idea, not just put on a bunch of fraudulent performances under pressure.

At this point in time, however, being able to meet her halfway is less about what I say regarding kids, but rather restoring her trust in what I say full stop. I've recently said many of these same things to her in one way or another, it's just that the circumstances of the last few weeks have made me unconvincing and her unreceptive. Maybe I go about restoring her faith in me by carrying on talking about my feelings about parenthood. Maybe I should do it by not saying anything much for a while (except in writing). I just don't know. You can rest assured that if I don't think I can give her what she wants, I'll let it end even if it shoots a cannoball through my life. I won't stay where I'm not wanted.


She returns from Florida (from that funeral) to Ohio this weekend. I called her in the week to tell her I hoped she was okay; to forget about me for a day or two, focus on herself and on consoling her friend (whose mother it was) while she was down there. At the time I thought the phone call was a good idea - she didn't seem unappreciative - but of course I agonised over it afterwards. For tomorrow I don't know if I should be all assertive and consoling like 'Hey, are you okay???', or to just haunt my inbox like a sad puppy in the hope she'll feel like telling me she made a safe flight back. I should probably just focus on writing a good, honest letter to post on Monday.

dreamlogic

Explain to her that you underestimated or misunderstood how important children are to her.
Also point out that your reaction against it was never an absolute 'no' but a reflection of your current fear of the unknown or of not getting it right...or however you think best to describe it..
Maybe ask for her help in getting used to the idea.
Let her know that you have faith in the strength of the relationship etc.
Maybe some kind of compromise can be reached. You are both only 26. Maybe you could commit to having children with her but not just yet. Maybe at age 28 for example..
As to the stuff you say later about not knowing how to be around a child, you shouldn't get ahead of yourself with worrying about all that. I don't have children myself but some of my friends who never seemed potential 'parent' types grew into the role quite naturally.

bronte

Quote
It's good to know that I'm not the only person who feels this kind of ambivalence about parenthood. That corner you've turned is one I've found myself suddenly hurtling towards at high speed. All because I trusted my crappy GPS and not my passenger! Or my tyres. I don't know where this metaphor is going any more.

Anyway I think I can pull myself around the corner, despite my fears - I just hope my gf can wait for me long enough to feel the same way. I'll start on a letter tonight, to post off Monday, so that this thread doesn't just become a useless scream into the void.
Quote

You're not alone hun!!..took me a while to get my head round it, and I'm a girl!
You're on the right path... tell her how you feel....

CDfm

Such a great post. Pretty mature of both of you.

I definately wasnt ready for kids when my son was born for lots of the reasons you say and the relationship didnt survive having kids. But instinctively I'm fairly good at trhe Dad gig and my fears were really because I appreciated the work and commitment that I would put into being a Dad.

My 15yo daughter arrived back from a school trip today and txtd me from the airport to come and get her. 18 yo son is around too but off at a party and the scally got me to drive him so i would buy the cider.

So if you really want it -you should get together.I'm fairly ok career wise and the early years were a financial struggle I could have done without. Planning a family would have helped somewhat as that involves things like financial expectations etc.You wonder whether she will work etc.Thats a side of it that concerns you and she may wonder about it in the current economic climate and that may be an issue too.

Best of luck fella - I hope the Gods smile on you.

The Sweeper

OP, I have to cover something off here, and I don't mean to be harsh, so bear with me.

You live in different countries. From your post, it occurs to me that you haven't sorted out, in stone yet, where your relationship is going in terms of where you will live, what jobs you will do, what side of the world you will be on, how much time you intend to spend out of your home countries, who will move to be with whom, how that person will cope being away from their family, how the partner will cope with the difficulty for the person who has moved, and frankly a ton weight of other issues that, in their urgency, far outstrip "do you want kids".

To me, at aged 26, your girlfriend is being a little unrealistic putting such a huge focus on wanting children right now, until all of the other factors are sorted out. It is obvious you are crazy about each other, but she appears to me to have a hugely unrealistic view of children - especially if she brought out "You won't have to do anything, I'll do it all" as a suggestion of the division of child-rearing labour.

I'm a little like you - I have a very negative view of myself in relation to kids, and currently I don't want any. Unlike you, I'm female and heading towards my 33rd birthday, so the biological stopwatch is far more of an issue for me than it is for you guys. Some days, whenever I consider the possibility of me ever having children, I truly wish I'd gotten accidentally knocked up in my 20s, had the decision taken out of my hands and was currently dealing with a little person, as opposed to that thing I dread - a baby. Other days, I am thankful that never happened, because of how it would have attached me to the people I was with in those days.

Realism is very important in parenthood, especially when one of the parents is away from their life-long support network.

Children are a huge change, and it is very, very easy to say "I don't want children" without really thinking about it, and it's actually more the fear of huge change speaking than it is the fear of parenthood itself.

Do you fear being a parent? Do you fear screwing up another human being? Do you fear the responsibility? Or do you just fear the unknown?

The question of whether or not to have children has massive, massive repercussions and even more so when relocation is involved. Whether or not you think you want children, I suggest conducting an exercise.

Research children.

There are two aisles in the supermarket that a certain proportion of people will never walk into - the petfood aisle and the baby products aisle. If you have neither pets nor babies, you just don't go there.

If you have no experience with children ("The last time I had a conversation with a child, I was a child"), try spending a few hours trawling the internet looking into different things.

Pregnancy. How easy is it to get pregnant? What can you expect? What should you do before you even try it? How, as the guy, should you support your pregnant missus?

Fatherhood on birth - what country will the baby be born in? Are you going to get married first? If you aren't married, do you have any rights as the migrant or resident father?

Small babies. What are these alien creatures? What can you expect in the first few weeks? Months? When do they start eating solid food? How long do you have them around you 24/7 before the law expects you to start shipping them off into nursery school or main stream schooling? (A surprisingly short time, from observing my extended family.) Is your missus gong to return to work, or be a stay at home mum? Who earns more, you or her? If it's her, would you be a stay at home dad?

For non-parents, fear of parenthood can just be fear of the unknown. Spend a few hours trawling websites you would never normally read, and go into that aisle in the supermarket you'd never normally go into.

Try it - and I guarantee you, you'll come out one of two ways: excited and interested by the prospect of parenthood at some time in the future, while still naturally terrified; or pretty damn sure you still don't want kids.


So how does all of this spill then into your existing relationship? First, you and miss America need to take a deep breath and calm down. You're stressing over a concept that you haven't properly investigated. You're fighting over something that neither of you have fully researched, discussed or educated yourselves on.

Saying that - please correct me if I'm wrong, and if you have fully gone through all of the matters I've raised, and you still don't want kids. If that's the case, then I'm sorry, but you can't waste any more of this girl's time and you do need to move on.

Could you imagine loving children with this woman of your dreams? Can you ever imagine having children with anyone else?

It's all well and good to say that you need to want kids in order to have kids - because God almighty in an ideal situation that really, really is true - but you need to know what it is you're wanting or not wanting. You can't throw this relationship because you're afraid of a concept. Where do you see yourself in five year's time? If the answer is "I don't know but it definitely doesn't include kids" - there's a whole bunch of things both wrong and right with that statement, but you need to strip away each onion layer until you fully understand why you've even said it.

As for what to do right now: don't leave yourself on a six month break - it's too long. Start thinking through the parenthood thing properly - not just from a fear of change perspective, but in terms of how it fits into your WHOLE LIVES. It's ridiculous really to say "We've nothing else sorted, but I'm not even going to bother looking into it unless we organise kids: y/n at this point."

The best case scenario for you is if you can go back to your missus and say to her: "The concept of parenthood terrifies me. However, I can't think of anyone else I would love to have children with. Not now, not ever. And I'm not going to throw this relationship away by saying that sorry, I can't overcome my self esteem issues for you. BUT, and this is a major BUT, we need to have a PLAN, and that means there is a LOT of things we need to go through."

Then organise a visit back to the US, and start working out a life plan.

There's a lot of positives about having your children younger - for instance, if you have three kids in six years (this is hypothetical, stop hyperventilating) and start aged 28, (I said stop hyperventilating) the last one turns 18 when you're 46. Forty-six years old. That's so YOUNG. I'm not saying you boot them out on their behinds on their 18th birthdays, but just think!

Anyway - this is turning into more of a dose of War & Peace then your original post was, so I'll shut up now.

CDfm

mjd -thats a bit of an epic and OP its full of really important positive practical stuff.Life plan bit is important.

LegacyUser

Um... I'm afraid this post stretched out too. By this point, anyone still investing their time into reading this topic and sharing their advice/concern, is an angel. For those who want to know what they're reading before they commit, this post deals with relocation issues, with some afterthoughts on feelings about children.

@MJD - Great post, thanks. You're not being harsh. The second-harshest thought to me is that this all might not be meant to work and that to even try is cruel/selfish/desperate. The harshest thought is that my girlfriend might already be convinced of this. At least you and others are affirming that I should do what I can as long as I believe in what I'm doing.

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

You live in different countries. From your post, it occurs to me that you haven't sorted out, in stone yet, where your relationship is going in terms of where you will live... etc.

Yes and no. Kids are something we definitely hadn't sorted out, due to mental roadblocks on both our parts, mainly mine. Relocation and lifestyle issues are something we tried to discuss with more clarity, but were still probably hamstrung by our lack of a common goal over children.

Relocation is one of those things that we've dedicated a great amount of thought and worry to without actually having any concrete plans to show for it at the end. Last year we entertained the possibility of us both relocating to work in Hungary. She also hinted at being able to move to Ireland if I could guarantee a kid-filled future. I didn't want to guarantee anything of the sort, but then in any case she got promoted and we both agreed her career was best served by staying in America for the foreseeable future. Certainly with the relationship in the state it's in now, the time for the above options has passed - she wouldn't leave America for me as things stand. But anyway for a long time now we've understood that I would be the one moving. I have very little problem with this (although once or twice in the past I have, cynically, tried to use it as a bargaining chip to get her to drop the issue of kids). I do think the idea of upheaval for me has made her feel more guilty than it should.

With my current drifter's-existence, alternating between countries for the last year or so, I've essentially taken myself out of the world of work. I can't legally work in America while I'm there, and here in small town Ireland, where I've lived for scattered periods, there is nothing except small time retail. I just so happen to have a lot of money set aside, because the family abode in Ireland is one my mum inherited and I received a share of the London house sale. As such I haven't felt the pressing need to get behind the cash registers at Dunne's yet. I believe I have enough to seriously cushion the two of us for a few years yet, also.

I have a degree in Japanese language (but I'm not an anime geek :P) and the job market in Dayton Ohio is pretty dire. In fact through years of disuse, so too is my Japanese. The few jobs I saw advertising for my specialisation in Ohio are the kind that I had little doubt would crush a lot of joy out of my/our life there - generally admin with a touch of phones&busywork in Japanese. So we looked at the possibility of further study. I was strongly tempted by a bachelor's in CompSci, until I started getting recurring nightmares about exams and essays and I remembered that I really had wanted to leave academia behind for the rest of my life.

Typing this I realise what a poor prospect for the future I must seem. I went along systematically knocking the alternatives out of her hands, really. I did so because at the back of my mind I wanted to do just one thing - marry her and sort out the rest afterwards. But marriage to her has always meant the explicit promise of children. For ages I told myself stupidly that that could change, that the maternal instinct might be reasoned away in time, but at the same time I couldn't propose as long as I knew what a proposal would mean to her.

My current perspective has been formed by the collapse of that idea - of the idea that marriage, or any kind of relationship, with my girlfriend can happen while the promise of children is off the table. Now I realise what a choosy beggar I've been. I assumed that because we were right for eachother, I had the freedom to hold out for what suited me best. I took her for granted. Now I know that the relationship hinges on it, I'll entertain any possibility no matter how grim it seems to me. I'll work the phones in engrish, I'll work Walmart, I'll bite my nails over essay deadlines again.

Considering how solid her career seems at the moment, a kid in the near future would probably turn me into the stay-at-home dad. I wouldn't mind that at all, but it's problematic if I'm only over there in a studying/vocational capacity; if we're both doing something during the day then where's our child? In the short term I can't see her marrying me either, considering the doubts she now harbours about my commitment.

The 'life plan' has overshadowed this whole thing for a long time. However we both used to hold out hope it could work. All that's changed is her faith in my parenthood. If that can be restored, I want to restore it, so that we can plan our lives again with clearer heads than before.

Minesajackdaniels wrote: »

Do you fear being a parent? Do you fear screwing up another human being? Do you fear the responsibility? Or do you just fear the unknown?
...
The best case scenario for you is if you can go back to your missus and say to her: "The concept of parenthood terrifies me. However, I can't think of anyone else I would love to have children with. Not now, not ever."

As for those questions - all of the above, but fear of the unknown and fear of responsibility probably trump the rest.

Research into children is one thing that we... I, at least, have not done much of. I believe it could change a hell of a lot. I have no intention of stringing her along endlessly, and I have faith that I would not be wasting her time by convincing her to trust in me as a prospective dad.

At the same time I do find it difficult to divorce the idea of children from the idea of children-with-HER. Should I even be trying? I want to know if I can be a good dad and enjoy parenthood, but more than anything I want her to be beside me in that, and me beside her. If it's children I want, I want hers.

TPD

Phobophobe - I haven't any advice to offer, and at 19 I'd still consider myself a kid, but best of luck to you. I hope everything works out.

LegacyUser

BUMP: An update, for those interested and who might be kind enough to help me further.

I sent a letter. I have been giving her time and space so far. In the past 2 weeks we've had just two conversations on gmail and that's it - she started both convos. I did send a drunken text on Saturday, asking to talk, but got no reply (she said she had been drunk and that her friends took her phone). BUT: I have been checking her myspace periodically I know I shouldn't but I can't resist. It's the closest thing to communication available to me.

At some point last week she changed her myspace status to 'single'. That's fair enough - I did say we're on a break. I just don't know why she DID it, at that moment. It's unlikely to be for my eyes, since she knows I never used myspace even back when she tried to get me to. Everyone who knows her, knows what's going on with her and me - they gain no knowledge from looking there and seeing 'single'. All it did was make me cry about the hardest I ever have.

She received my letter on Monday, and told me so on gmail IM. She seemed appreciative. She said she would read it later that day, though I told her to take her time. I also told her I thought we needed to talk, because we haven't been communicating very well this whole time. She agreed that we haven't been, but the real reason I said this is because I feel close to nervous breakdown. She said the only night she would be at home this week would be Wednesday, but she wasn't sure.

Wednesday came and went, 6 hours ago for me, 2 hours ago for her. No contact. No text to say she wouldn't be on, nothing. She has been on her myspace though. According to her mood: "the sexiest thing is trust."

You may recall that the biggest issue atm is her ability to 'trust' what I'm saying about our future. But I don't know what 'the sexiest thing is trust' means Why does she suddenly realise trust is 'sexy'? Who does she trust? Is it because she *doesn't* trust me that I'm not sexy any more...??

I'm starting to feel kind of dicked around at this point. I stayed up all night on gmail on the offchance she'd be at home like she said she might. But although she found the time to log into myspace and say something cryptic, she couldn't fire up gmail to check for me, nor find the time to text me and tell me to just go to bed. I'm a pathetic wreck, as you might be able to tell. I wish she would just talk to me instead of leaving cryptic pointers for herself that scare the hell out of me.

What can I do other than wait? Waiting is driving me crazy, no joke. No amount of forced distraction takes my mind off things. Should I be more forceful in getting her to talk to me? What do you think she meant by the 'trust' thing? Should I mention it? I feel like a total waste of space, unable to assert myself or do anything about this situation at all, including escape from it.

Should I give up? It already feels like it's falling apart and I don't think I can take another day, much less another 6 months of this.

dreamlogic

Phobophobe wrote: »

According to her mood: "the sexiest thing is trust."

The quote is from a Tori Amos song, "Jamaica Inn".
Lyrics here: http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Jamaica-Inn-lyrics-Tori-Amos/1EDEF072558296A948256F95000E8911

LegacyUser

Thank you. She likes Tori Amos, so that does bring things into a little more perspective.

It actually makes a huge difference. Sex never entered her mind while I was there just now so I was killing myself wondering why she had suddenly brought physical attraction into it all...

Still it's hard to see how it's not a reference to our current situation. Her trust of me is what all of this boils down to. Should I still ask about it? :S I'm paranoid that every action I might take could be viewed as the measure of an untrustworthy desperado.

NewFrockTuesday

You may not find this helpful, nor might you like what I am about to suggest, but given that your gf is concerned about time in the fact that she now has 4 years to conceive if she wants children before she’s 30….and you are on a 6 month break and barely on speaking terms, has it maybe (and I don’t mean to hurt or upset you in any way when I say this) crossed your mind that this is turning into a break up? Be it ever so slow?

My honest opinion OP, is that you should have a discussion with her and not wait and wait for 6 months to pass. Youre barely coping with it as it is and if she knew the state you were in then if she loves you enough to spend the rest of her life with you, would not want to see you in this emotional turmoil. Its not going to get any better if nothing gets resolved. Im not blessed with a huge amount of patience and prefer things to be clear to me. A decade is a long time to be knowing someone and (((hug))) for the pain of not having her in your life everyday anymore, but reading your updates would make me think that it’s a slow cool off.

Im sorry Im the one to suggest this. I hope Im wrong, I really do.

Oh The Humanity

Stay Calm, you've laid yourself bare and that is a very scary place to be.

Now you have to trust her, trust her not to be a player and play with your emotions, trust her to read your letter containing your innermost thoughts and handle them with the sacred respect you would reserve for one you hope will father your children.

So very scary, yes but please be calm.

A cheesy salesman once told me something he regarded as a gem of wisdom years ago...it was for making sales but I used it advantageously in emotional situations and found it worked.

It was 'make your pitch and then: go silent'

The idea is to put accross your position warts and all and then give the person time and space to mull it over, dont get jittery and keep jumping in with amendments to the original pitch.

Simply calmly wait.

Its a gamble buddy, phew you will be feeling like a cat on a hot tin roof right about now, but you put your heart into the letter and if she is the girl you say, you have got to take that risk.

I am rooting for you though! Good luck !

LegacyUser

Deepsense wrote: »

...has it maybe (and I don’t mean to hurt or upset you in any way when I say this) crossed your mind that this is turning into a break up? Be it ever so slow?

Thank you for the very thoughtful post. You don't need to worry; the thought that this might be a slow cool off is something that I am trying very hard to deal with, at almost every point of every day.

Like you, I'm not very patient. I am aware that this break may well turn out to be unnecessary torture, with an inevitable end, and that makes me want to speed up the process and get it over with. I really do want to see if she can be... encouraged to take a firm decision on this (either way) within the next 2 months at the most.

But like Humanity urged me to, after you, I do trust her. I feel like with so much at stake, I can't afford to be defeatist. It's turning my mind into a corkscrew, considering the negative signals I'm getting, but I believe her when she says she loves me; that this isn't about wanting to be apart from me; that if she could Trust Me On Kids, this would all still work. I'm begging her to trust me, so I have to trust her too. I'm still well aware that it might all come to nothing and I don't know what will happen in that case. I'll be in a bad way.

@Humanity - good, thanks, that's reassuring. I'm trying to 'go silent'. I think I've done okay with that so far. When I pointed this out to her on Monday she said it was a self-imposed condition - that I asked for it, and that she does want to talk. It doesn't seem like she does but I'm trying to trust her, very hard. I may have screwed up a little in suggesting we have a big talk this week some time. TBH there's little new that I can say, other than asking her what she's thinking, and what she thought of the letter.

She's getting a bouquet of roses to her workplace tomorrow for her birthday. I guess that's not really 'going silent' either. But I hope she likes them.

Redderneck

If it's not too late to cancel those Roses, do it. If you want a woman to get flowers, either bring them to her in person - at home - or send them to her home address, not to her workplace. Flowers to work is like a dog marking its' territory.

The advice to run silent for a while is probably decent, given that you are so far away from one another. Ordinarily I would say that the sorts of conversations you two need to be having together are ones best kept for when you're face-to-face at best, or over the telephone at worst.
I think often this generation seem to rely on tech too much. Emails/Texts only get you so far in life. Sooner or later the human touch is needed.

But as I say, given the distances involved and your recent face-to-face efforts; you've done what you can for now.

You should force yourself - and you will have to force yourself, no doubt about it, to create more of a life for yourself here - or perhaps somewhere 'else', somewhere different to give you a new perspective, for a while. And accept that she may be using the space you give her to actively do the same and suss her options out. May be painful to think of it in those terms - which will likely involve 'other relationships' but you need to.

Then drop her a very brief line - a card for Christmas/Birthday would be handy, neutral enough tone, hoping she's doing well. See if she bites. If she does, then off you go. If not, she's moved on. You may find yourself in a place where you have zero interest in dropping her that line, in which case, off you go.

Another point - should you both decide at some stage in the future to get together, I heartily recommend you 'go neutral' - pick a place at least initially where neither of you are on home ground. You'll btoh be properly invested in the relationship then, neither of you selling yourself short/oversold.

Good luck with it. What's meant for you won't pass you by.

MonicaBing

I have never in all my time on boards been so smitten by a post...i have every crossable part of my anatomy crossed for you guys and am sending loads of positive thoughts to you guys....please let us know how you get on,

Good luck

Chris x

hshortt

Just adding to the post above, wishing you all the luck possible.

Take care
Cheerio

LegacyUser

I don't think you guys know how much it means to receive such support from strangers when it feels like the world's coming apart at the seams.

@Redderneck - thanks for a lot of sound, measured wisdom. In the spirit of your suggestions, I've been thinking about how I'd construct a life outside her ever since I was stressed out and alone in her friend's flat. I've thought about starting a business. I haven't got very far, and I usually end up in tears, walking around mumbling, but I'm not blind to what I need to be thinking about. It's still very hard to get around the fact that anything I want to do, I want to do as her OH.

The letter she just received was indeed an account of my innermost thoughts, but it also contained a gentle request to visit her and reevaluate things in April, May, or whenever she sees fit. As such, 'Running silent' is going to have to be modulated with waiting for and responding to her feedback on that. When it comes.

With respect, I'm unlikely to be cancelling the roses. What you say makes sense to me, but everything I know about her tells me she would enjoy receiving them. She was delighted just to receive the letter because she never gets proper mail, so that encouraged me to think I shouldn't be too afraid of having something arrive for her birthday weekend too. The choice to deliver at work is because she's never at home nowadays, and rescheduling with the courier is always a pain in the neck for a recipient. The roses aren't cheesy red ones btw. Plus there's chocolate.

I just wanted to send her something nice for her birthday that would make her smile and keep her thinking of me. It's only a modest goal, and I'm still modestly confident it was a good idea.

NewFrockTuesday

With respect, I'm unlikely to be cancelling the roses

I just wanted to send her something nice for her birthday that would make her smile and keep her thinking of me. It's only a modest goal, and I'm still modestly confident it was a good idea

.

It was You sound like an absolute gent. I hope she appreciates them. Keep us updated on happenning please? Id love to hear that you got the outcome you feel is best for you at the time. Good luck!

Leah-G1

I agree,
Good luck dude! I hope it works out for you and your lady.

Hopefully both of you will be looking back on this in years to come as a close call but not the thing that destroyed you.

LegacyUser

Waiting for somebody else to make up their mind or even be ready to talk is hard, so you have my sympathy for that OP.

Don't put your life on hold though. For two reasons: 1, it may be as said above that you have to get used to the idea of your life going on without her, and 2, it will make you more attractive to her if you are doing something with your life rather than drifting while waiting for all this to be resolved.

It's nice for you that you are financially comfortable but it's more alpha-male to be pursuing a job OR at least some other activities, something you have a passion for, or voluntary work. Paradoxically, feeling like hanging around waiting for her is not the sole focus of your life will take the pressure off her and also show her that you are worth committing to.

LegacyUser

OP I'm flicking through this whole story, and it's pretty amazing. I'm a 26 year old girl in a long term relationship. Let me tell you a few things.
I really want kids too. I'd love them before I'm 30.My boyfriend is....a fantastic guy. But (and I'm generalising) like many men the idea of kids to him is a totally alien, and completely terrifying one!I don't know a single guy that will say at the age of 26 "yeah I'd love kids now.Let's start a family in the next 6 months".I'm an engineer, so I know a lot of guys, most of my friends are male.Women mature quicker, it's a scientific fact. I don't know whether I'd make a good parent or not. Of course I'd like to think that I would. But I can't wait to try.

I know people will say she's putting pressure on herself.I know you think you've got years and years before kids feature. But when you're 26, if, as a woman, you really want kids, all you can think is that you've only got maybe 14 years left where you can have them. And say you want a few kids, and obviously you want to have a bit of time between them.Suddenly, if you want them badly enough, 14 years doesn't seem like much time. Especially if you think you'd like to get married first, or in between somewhere.

I'm not saying to go back just to keep her happy. I'm just trying to show you how it feels in her head. To be honest you sound like you've got a great relationship and it's worth working on. I know kids are terrifying to you and you want to be a good parent. But do you think you are going to wake up one day, and have a lightbulb go on in your head and be completely at ease with it?Not going to happen, you've got to take the plunge.
From her point of view, she needs to realise that you're scared...and that's okay. If it comes to it, she'll probably be scared too. Also, on a more practical note, she needs to look at how financially viable it is to have a kid right now, and where you're going to live etc,etc.

The last thing I'll say is....she's not a mind reader. You've got to tell her how you feel. Openly, frankly and repeatedly, if necessary. Before Bebo and Facebook and mySpace, people had relationships, and communicated far better than we ever will. All the one line "thought for the day" in the world will not tell you how a person really feels. How many relationships have ended in fights because of a mis-read text or a message on a Bebo page?You say she loved getting the letter...of course. Because it's a real concrete thing, that you took the trouble to sit down and think about and write and send.It does, actually, show you care.Rather than virtual impersonal print on a screen(I know I'm becoming very flowery here, but do you see my point?!).

Anyway the best of luck. The best of relationships have some problems, and the most important part of a relationship is communication. Keep sending your letters. They don't all have to be huge expressions of love, but show you still care. It will probably mean more than you'll ever know.

honru

Bring kids in to this world for the right reasons.

Putting your partner and what she wants completely aside: do you want kids?

Having kids to appease or for fear of loss sounds like a bad idea.

Another thing, her "it's not a big thing to ask" and "if we had one, you wouldn't have to do anything" comments really set off alarm bells in my mind. Does she not realise the enormity of such a request? While you should respect what she desires, it doesn't seem like she wants kids for the right reasons either with such little regard for your perspective.

Laivasse

Update: the flowers got there okay, but I still haven't heard from her. Last Monday she said her silence is due to being genuinely busy. I get the impression that much of this busyness is self-created. She appears to be using the same coping mechanism she used after her ex-fiance: filling up her time and whiting out her mind. I hope I'm wrong because that is only going to doom our chances. To lapse into self-pity for a moment, I don't think I really deserve the same reaction that a brainwashed cheat got, either.
(EDIT 17:06 - she just texted me to say thanks. Aaaand I sigh out a week's worth of torment, needy moron that I am...)

I'm deciding to login from this point. I doubt these posts will ever be traceable back to me irl, but if they are then they are already. But mainly I'm tired of the image verification for unregs Long responses to the previous posts follow:

@freak scenery - Did I want children before meeting her? No. Did I want kids, of my own accord, when she was trying to 'persuade' me to want them? No. Do I want kids without her? Inasmuch as it's hard to want anything without her right now: no, not at the moment. However, I'm of the same mind as MJD and some others who have posted: though I might have been cruelly oblivious for a long time, I refuse to just let the best thing in my life, or indeed both our lives, slip through my fingers because I'm terrified of an idea I don't understand well. I don't believe in destiny and no offense to those who do, but I don't believe 'what's meant for you won't pass you by' either. I think a lot of suffering people who die lonely and pointlessly would take issue with that. I don't trust fate with this one.

Simply asking myself 'Do I want kids?' and using uninformed instinct to guide me feels like using a sledgehammer where I should be using a scalpel, considering I now know the stakes.
What I think I should be asking myself, and what I am asking myself very seriously atm is:
What do I know about kids? The answer is virtually nothing, including how to act around them. Do I like kids? Despite the first answer, experience tells me 'yes', although unease often turns this feeling into indifference. Why would I not want to be a dad? Because I'm scared of the massive responsibility, the multitude of ways it could all go wrong, and the fact that I could never forgive myself if I made a hash of it all - especially if I didn't feel in control over the decision to become a father in the first place. Why would I want to be a dad? Because I like the idea of raising a little human, leaving a good impression on it, having it love me and seeing it grow up to be an individual worth celebrating. This feeling is one I've always found tough to examine; it's always been overshadowed by the previous answer. What's motivating me in all this? Fear of losing her, undeniably. But also, the belief that we would probably be genuinely happy with children and that we would be good parents. Fear of making her miserable. The compulsion to do justice to a rare relationship. Would I be a good father? I hope so. I'd bet on myself, now.

About the unrealistic things she said, 'it's not a big thing' etc. - she claims she said those things because she thought that once I had a child, I would instantly love it. In other words, she was trying to persuade me we could 'just have one' at some point. There are two ways to interpret this: either she was broody and irrational, or she just had that much faith in me. The thought that it was the latter, and that I've smashed that faith, makes me very sad.

It goes without saying that such statements were counterproductive. Every time she said something like that I became far less likely to agree to having one, then I'd usually respond with an angry exaggeration of my own. Now I'm left looking like a desperate, unstable maniac because I'm trying to break through the crust that formed throughout those discussions, in order to seriously reevaluate all my values. But if I'm asking her to discount my past negativity, I can't hold what she said against her either - though it would be a great help to us both if she remembered the worst things she said as clearly as she does the worst things I said.

One thing I remember, from when this all went to hell on Feb 8th, was feeling good that she was finally worrying about parenthood as much as I was. I soon stopped feeling good when I realised her fear was growing so large, so fast, that it was crushing me out of the picture.

@Unregistered - sorry I'm not responding to your post more comprehensively, but I'm tiring out people's eyes with huge novels every time here.

Good point about pressure: never mind 14 years, I suspect she's telling herself she has about 3. In America they do kids younger anyhow. In close proximity to her are five or six women, mostly in their mid to late 20's, who are either pregnant or have a child or two. Four of these women are VERY close friends of my girlfriend, and under 30. Also a good point about never being sure. I probably shouldn't tell her to wait for me to be 100% sure because I never will be. I don't know how to convince her that this is normal. As for letters, I might send another after a couple of weeks pass. Thanks to everyone on this forum who suggested that idea in the first place and helped reassure me it was a good one.

Sorry for the length of this again, my need to vent is undiminished.

honru

The main thing is that you are actually asking questions and answering truthfully, and I trust you will be honest with yourself when researching parenthood too. The more deeper you go, the more awareness you will have and thus the easier it will be to make decisions.

About the unrealistic things she said, 'it's not a big thing' etc. - she claims she said those things because she thought that once I had a child, I would instantly love it.

I have no doubt you would feel unconditional love for your own child, no matter how he or she came about. The question is, are you ready? That is a big deal.

She may explain her intention behind what she said, but there is something surreptitious about her choice of words there. That's my intuition, and I'm not surprised that such tidy statements got you emotional. You obviously care enough about this scenario that for your partner to consider it "not a big deal"... she is not taking your perspective into account.

CDfm

wow OP - you have got it bad.

She is playing you - there is a very good book called Emotional Blackmail by Dr Susan Forward an American Counsellor that deals with strategies for dealing with highly manipulative people.

estar

around these areas never works. you arent ready. and if she wants kids with you, and you think one day you will be ready she will have to take that leap of faith and give you the space to make that choice with her in your own time. if she cant wait, she cant wait. but seriously. you are only 26. what is the big crazy rush and the big drama for? having children is a massive life changing decision and thank god you are putting so much thought into it. however paralysis through analysis also applies here. if you are a well meaning mature unselfish person then it is highly likely you would be a perfectly capable father. it is vital that you have reached a point in your life where you are prepared to be totally unselfish in your decisions. that to me is the defining criteria. are you prepared to put your entire life on hold to meet the needs of another person.

i think her reaction is immature.

the short answer is, you arent ready now, you dont see yourself being able to make such a commitment to anyone for the foreseeable future and you need time to mature as an individual, and by the sounds of it so does she. if she honestly thinks that giving someone an ultamatim, a child by 30 or else, is a good way to plan a family then she really is a silly silly girl. you cannot ultamatim these important matters. they have to be freely decided by a shared consensus ideally. otherwise it opens up avenues for resentment.

if she was 37 and the clock was ticking i could understand more the biological imperative. perhaps she wants a baby because all her friends have one. and i really cant think of a worse reason to plan a child than that.

she needs to relax if you ask me. and to learn that you cannot ultamatim your way to getting your own way. its just not an appropriate way to reach decisions with such far reaching consequences.

Beruthiel

Phobophobe wrote: »

but fear of the unknown and fear of responsibility probably trump the rest.

Can I say just one thing with regards to this comment.
I believe every parent on this planet was terrified when having their first child.
Fear that you will not cope, fear that you will not live up to the challenge. Fear that you cannot live up to the responsibility of bringing up another human being and you will fuk it up royally.
I do not believe there is a bigger job than the nurture of another human being and the prospect can be daunting.

Certainly when I became pregnant, I felt all of the above (utter fear being at the fore). I was in no way ready to be a mother as it wasn't planned. I was thrown in at the deep end with no way of swimming back out.
I found the whole process frightening beyond belief.
There were times when I thought if she got to age one and I hadn't killed her, I'd be mighty impressed with myself. I considered myself to be crap at the job as it did not come naturally to me. (I'm not very maternal)

Now, 21 years later, I realise that in fact all of the above fear and the pressure of responsibility can actually be a good thing.
It means you are conscious of it. It means that you will be a better parent because of it. It means you will actually activily make an effort to be a good parent.

If it helps you in any way at all, from reading your comments in this thread, your sensitivity comes through.
I thing you would be a fantastic father. And if you ever change your mind on this, I think any child would be lucky to have you as their Da.