Fine Gael wants Dublin metro put on hold

crocro

Enda Kenny, writing in today's Irish Times, proposes that projects such as the Dublin metro be put 'on the back burner' and that we 'reprioritise smaller, labour-intensive projects that can keep as many tradesmen and builders employed as possible.'

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0227/1224241892788.html

dub_commuter

I actually don't think the Metro is absolutely essential. All it is, is another different method of transport in the city, and I think we ahve too many non joined up methods as it is and most of the route on Metro north is already covered by public transport pretty well, it's not like there is any big issues getting to the airport from the route it takes anyway. So I do see what he is saying.

So we're going to have
2x Metro
2x Luas (And more to come)
Dart
Rail

Too many in my view with not enough integration.

paulm17781

The interconnector is what will integrate everything.

Of course FG wants it put on hold, why should Dublin get a metro when Mayo gets little. He does realise the metro will employ lots of trades people doesn't he?

Judgement Day

Good. That's one reason to vote FG. If they promise to scrap the ridiculous Interconnector too they will have my vote for sure.

invincibleirish

Enda though is in favour of the WRC phases 2&3 going ahead. This is why FG fail at presenting itself as an alternative Gov. They, just like FF, have committed themselves to all sorts to win votes. Witness recently their spokesmen criticising the NRA & Gov for reduced spending on roads. They want all those rural bypasses of small towns built to hell with the national finances. Gombeen Ireland lives on.

dub_commuter

paulm17781 wrote: »

The interconnector is what will integrate everything.

Of course FG wants it put on hold, why should Dublin get a metro when Mayo gets little. He does realise the metro will employ lots of trades people doesn't he?

Yes, but wouldn't it be nice to have one transport system, rather than several like we are building now? Instead of having a Metro, Dart and Luas, we just had one and they were connected from the start, rather than having loads of different types.

paulm17781

dub_commuter wrote: »

Yes, but wouldn't it be nice to have one transport system, rather than several like we are building now? Instead of having a Metro, Dart and Luas, we just had one and they were connected from the start, rather than having loads of different types.

It's too late for that now. While it'd be nice, Luas put and end to that.

JD wrote:

Good. That's one reason to vote FG. If they promise to scrap the ridiculous Interconnector too they will have my vote for sure.

Please tell me that's a joke.

murphaph

dub_commuter wrote: »

Yes, but wouldn't it be nice to have one transport system, rather than several like we are building now? Instead of having a Metro, Dart and Luas, we just had one and they were connected from the start, rather than having loads of different types.

Sorry, that's rubbish. London has dozens of transport operators (Berlin has more transport operators than Dublin too btw) yet to the passenger they all appear as one single system. It is true that we need to integrate what we have under a common tarrif and ticket system but that is NOT a reason not to build metro north.

Of course, if one project must be prioritised over the other, the Interconnector should take priority but as far as FG goes (and I really want an alternative to FF!) they become less credible by the day when Kenny openly supports completion of the WRC yet wishes to see "more labour intensive small projects" than metro north being prioritised. Metro north would of course be the most labour intensive project ever undertaken in the state but maybe nobody told Enda?

grahamo

crocro wrote: »

Enda Kenny, writing in today's Irish Times, proposes that projects such as the Dublin metro be put 'on the back burner' and that we 'reprioritise smaller, labour-intensive projects that can keep as many tradesmen and builders employed as possible.'

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0227/1224241892788.html

I wouldn't expect anything less from the progressive go-getters that run the country :rolleyes:

No wonder the country is going down the s****er!

dub_commuter

murphaph wrote: »

Sorry, that's rubbish. London has dozens of transport operators (Berlin has more transport operators than Dublin too btw) yet to the passenger they all appear as one single system. It is true that we need to integrate what we have under a common tarrif and ticket system but that is NOT a reason not to build metro north.

I wasn't talking about the operators, I was talking about methods. London has one big network covering a large amount of the city. It's known as the London Underground and consists of many lines all on one type of transport, and one network and you can get from many places to the place you want to go to all via the underground.In Dublin you may have to get a bus, a Luas and then a train to some places etc. This is what I mean by no intergration

Yes they have the Docklands light railway and the trams in Croydon, but they are a far bigger city and are minor in relative terms to what is happening in Dublin. Facts are that Metro, Luas etc are only being done in a lot of cases, as it's a cheaper alternative to proper rail.

Metrobest

crocro wrote: »

Enda Kenny, writing in today's Irish Times, proposes that projects such as the Dublin metro be put 'on the back burner' and that we 'reprioritise smaller, labour-intensive projects that can keep as many tradesmen and builders employed as possible.'

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0227/1224241892788.html

Idiotic Enda Kenny seems to think that Ireland doesn't need to plan for the future. His philiosophy is to just raise the taxes, live hand to mouth for a few years, and watch the economy continue to slide. In the unlikely event that the economy did turn around under Kenny's watch, we'd be left with a capital city still lacking a half-way decent transport system, except this time we would be even further behind our European competitors who are using the economic situation to invest in massive publics works programs.

Kenny would prefer taxpayers' money to support a dysfunctional planning/land/builder clique than to invest in projects that have the potential to reshape mobility and spatial patterns in Ireland for decades to come.

Metro North and Metro West are mission-critical transport corridors that can move mass numbers of people between (high density) residential and commercial developments. The economic benefits of this infrastructure are as powerful as the social benefits of reduced commuting time.

Enda Kenny puts the interests of rural hamlets in Mayo above the ilong-term socio-economic nterests of the nation. It's no surprise that he would kill the metro projects. He's a Mayo man through and through.

Enda Kenny-led Fine Gael is such an appaling alternative to Fianna Fail it's depressing to contemplate.

Ireland is craving a strong and credible opposition. Enda Kenny is incapable of delivering it.

paulm17781

Metrobest wrote: »

Enda Kenny-led Fine Gael is such an appaling alternative to Fianna Fail it's depressing to contemplate.

Ireland is craving a strong and credible opposition. Enda Kenny is incapable of delivering it.

This is my problem with the country at the minute. I have no choice but to vote FF again despite hating them. I have no faith in the sore loser who wouldn't step down after losing the last election. A man of no conviction does not deserve to lead a country.

dowlingm

Given FG's prior policy on taxi drivers, expect them to be classified tradesmen by an FG Dept of Transport.

What FG really mean here of course is that they will implement a transportation equivalent to the Spatial Strategy - so a minibus for every hamlet that votes FG but nothing for PaleRail.

godtabh

dub_commuter wrote: »

I wasn't talking about the operators, I was talking about methods. London has one big network covering a large amount of the city. It's known as the London Underground and consists of many lines all on one type of transport, and one network and you can get from many places to the place you want to go to all via the underground.In Dublin you may have to get a bus, a Luas and then a train to some places etc. This is what I mean by no intergration

I think you are talking about TFl which the underground is part of.

Integrated ticketing is what is required but the wasters have manged to mess that up.

The final tenders for MN were submitted today. Some amount of documentation went in.

Personally I'd rather see MN go ahead (with the Interconnector) for many many reasons some of which arent related to transport issues

murphaph

Metrobest wrote: »

Idiotic Enda Kenny seems to think that Ireland doesn't need to plan for the future. His philiosophy is to just raise the taxes, live hand to mouth for a few years, and watch the economy continue to slide. In the unlikely event that the economy did turn around under Kenny's watch, we'd be left with a capital city still lacking a half-way decent transport system, except this time we would be even further behind our European competitors who are using the economic situation to invest in massive publics works programs.

Kenny would prefer taxpayers' money to support a dysfunctional planning/land/builder clique than to invest in projects that have the potential to reshape mobility and spatial patterns in Ireland for decades to come.

Metro North and Metro West The Interconnector are mission-critical transport corridors that can move mass numbers of people between (high density) residential and commercial developments. The economic benefits of this infrastructure are as powerful as the social benefits of reduced commuting time.

Enda Kenny puts the interests of rural hamlets in Mayo above the ilong-term socio-economic nterests of the nation. It's no surprise that he would kill the metro projects. He's a Mayo man through and through.

Enda Kenny-led Fine Gael is such an appaling alternative to Fianna Fail it's depressing to contemplate.

Ireland is craving a strong and credible opposition. Enda Kenny is incapable of delivering it.

Fixed that for you but everything else I agree with wholeheartedly. Metrowest would benefit me and my family on a personal level more than metro north, because we have property along its route but in the national interest, I'd vote it doen in favour of the other two big projects. Keep the route of metro west very well protected of course.

We really must not supsend major capital projects now to keep taxes low or keep public service wages high. Wages across all sectors must fall in line with the private sector (which will fall naturally!) and if the minimum wage needs re-evaluation to compete with the UK and elsewhere then so be it. We've had a standard of living which our fundamentals couldn't justify for 10 years now. FACT.

murphaph

dub_commuter wrote: »

I wasn't talking about the operators, I was talking about methods. London has one big network covering a large amount of the city. It's known as the London Underground and consists of many lines all on one type of transport, and one network and you can get from many places to the place you want to go to all via the underground.In Dublin you may have to get a bus, a Luas and then a train to some places etc. This is what I mean by no intergration

Yes they have the Docklands light railway and the trams in Croydon, but they are a far bigger city and are minor in relative terms to what is happening in Dublin. Facts are that Metro, Luas etc are only being done in a lot of cases, as it's a cheaper alternative to proper rail.

The public cares not one iota how many forms of public transport there are, so long as each one is integrated with the others. Berlin has S-Bahn/U-Bahn/Metro-tram/tram/metro-bus/bus/ferry!/Regional Rail all usable under 1 integrated ticket. Would you suggest Berlin has a very good/good/average/poor/very poor public transport offering?

BluntGuy

I think Interconnector needs to be the number one transport priority. We should focus on connecting our existing services together in an efficient manner before we start throwing more stuff onto the public transport network.

Metro North is needed as well, but not as much as the former.

Metro West and the other Luas schemes need to be shoved in the bin for the moment (especially MW which hasn't had one single drop of thought put into it.)

Pity Enda is spouting such rubbish about Metro North, because a lot of what he said in that article is pretty much spot on. Anyway, no worries, since I'm sure we'll all be voting Labour come the next election.

godtabh

Metro North provides interconnection at Dromcondra for Metro and Train and at St Stephens Green with the Luas

medoc

Unfortunately no matter who will be in power, in the near future we wont be able to fund metro north, in fact a lot of the capital projects could be cut if things dont improve. It's looking likely that both big banks will have to be nationalised and Ireland could loose its AAA rating making more borrowing impossible. If we didn't need to borrow for public service wages and other day to day spending we could borrow the money for all the big projects. Now the real question is why a lot more wasn't done during the boom.

dowlingm

AAA rating doesn't mean borrowing will be "impossible", merely more expensive as lower ratings will require higher interest rates.

@BluntGuy - ah now, they did design that nice bridge for metrowest

godtabh

BluntGuy wrote: »

Metro West and the other Luas schemes need to be shoved in the bin for the moment (especially MW which hasn't had one single drop of thought put into it.)

And what stage is it at again? The EIS isnt even finished yet

TheVan

Just a thought (and I'm literally thinking aloud)....

What would the possibility be of creating two bus lanes along the Interconnector route, making sure they were wide enough for a high speed service and putting the long, bendy buses on them running every 5 minutes or so?

Obviously road intersections along the route would have to be changed but it may be a cheaper and acceptable (less than perfect, but acceptable) method of saving some serious money?

dvpower

Metrobest wrote: »

Metro North and Metro West are mission-critical transport corridors

I think the mission has changed. Its now a rescue mission. Busses are going to have to do for a while.

murphaph

TheVan wrote: »

Just a thought (and I'm literally thinking aloud)....

What would the possibility be of creating two bus lanes along the Interconnector route, making sure they were wide enough for a high speed service and putting the long, bendy buses on them running every 5 minutes or so?

Obviously road intersections along the route would have to be changed but it may be a cheaper and acceptable (less than perfect, but acceptable) method of saving some serious money?

The function of the Interconnector is not just to link Heuston Station with Docklands Station. It has much wider benefits than that. Terminating trains in the city centre at Heuston/Connolly sucks a LOT of capacity out of the system as the trains must cross each other's paths to get back out to the sticks. Running the trains through the city centre and terminating in remote stations allows much more use of the existing infrastructure. The Interconnector is NOT a new or novel idea-many cities around the world oroginally had terminus stations that were disconnected from each other on opposite sides of town. Many of these cities have since built tunnels or elevated sections (in the case of Berlin, both!) to link such disconnected stations and allow through running. In Munich, their Stammstrecke ('common stretch') which opened in the early 70's has been so succesful that they are building a parallel one, having already resignalled their 'interconnector' to maximum capacity. Interconnectors work and it would work particularly well in Dublin. London wants to build one too (Crossrail).

medoc

dowlingm wrote: »

AAA rating doesn't mean borrowing will be "impossible", merely more expensive as lower ratings will require higher interest rates.

Sorry I meant harder because it will be more expensive. I still cant see it going ahead because of the finances, we will be borrowing enough as it is for the wrong reasons.

lego

In terms of rail line coverage in the Dublin Metropolitan Region, most of the city has coverage i.e.

(clockwise order from northeast)
The north east and south east of the city are covered by the DART.
The south central area is covered by the luas green line.
The south west area is covered by the luas red line.
The west is covered by the Heuston->Kildare commuter line.
The north west area is covered by the Connolly->Maynooth commuter line.

This creates an almost complete (albeit fragmented by type) radial-design rail system for commuters in the Dublin Metropolitan Region.
The only rail access black spot missing from the radial design is the Dublin north central area. This is the area Metro North was designed to give commuter rail access to.

The orbital Metro West is not part of this radial design but was added in to give access to various points of the system to people living in the west Dublin suburbs.

The reality is that these projects have to be built sometime, and labour costs are lower in a recession.

Buses simply don't make the grade. One day I wanted to travel from Blanchardstown to Howth Junction Dart Station (It doesn't seem too far, does it?). I got the 220 Bus from Blanchardstown to Ballymun (This took 2 hours as stated on the Dublin Bus website), I then got the 17A from from Ballymun to Howth Junction Dart Station (This took another 1 hour 30 minutes as stated on the Dublin Bus website).

3Hrs and 30 Minutes to get 3/4 way accross the city. This is based on the standard travel times for these buses and excudes the time I waited to get those buses.
To put this in perspective, it takes around 2 hours to get from Dublin to Galway by train.

Also, it can easily take up to 2 two hours to get from some suburbs to the city centre by bus, and theres no space on many of the routes used to create a bus lane unless the roads in question had a complete car ban.

The reality is as a form of public transport, buses are complete sh**e and are simply not up to the task. We use them simply because we've got nothing else. They are a last resort. Segregated rail systems are the way to go, they get you to your destination in a reasonable amount of time. It doesn't get slowed down by traffic, traffic lights, pedestrians, road works etc...

The Metro North line serves many areas with demand for a high capacity public transport link.
eg:
Swords,
Dublin Airport,
Ballymun,
DCU,
Drumcondra rail interchange (Croke Park Stop),
Mater Hospital (Phibsboro Stop)
Parnell Street,
O'Connell Bridge,
St. Stephens Green
etc...

I've used metro systems/other segregated urban rail systems in cities around Europe. Once you get used to the speed they can get you around the city at, it is very difficult to go back to cr*ppy, extremely slow buses eating into what would otherwise be your free time.

Guy:Incognito

He'll fight to get it shelved. Then next year start campaiging on the "I'll give you the Metro that the evil FF took away" ticket.:)

spacetweek

I remember reading somewhere else , a person was complaining about FF and someone went "Yea but look at the alternative". The article the OP links to is a great example of this.

nyarlothothep

wouldn't a building project of this scale by cyclically profitable in generating a lot of jobs in construction and maintenance/clerical/pr etc and further income from ticket prices?

IIMII

spacetweek wrote: »

I remember reading somewhere else , a person was complaining about FF and someone went "Yea but look at the alternative". The article the OP links to is a great example of this.

I would love to feel I had a real choice come the next election but if it were to come down to the lesser of two evils (and it always does) FG and Enda Kenny in particular would get last place on my PR voting card

BluntGuy

IIMII wrote: »

I would love to feel I had a real choice come the next election but if it were to come down to the lesser of two evils (and it always does) FG and Enda Kenny in particular would get last place on my PR voting card

Now, not to turn this into a political debate, but this is a huge problem in this country. Why do we act like there are only two choices? FF and FG. (This isn't directly at you personally btw).

Why don't we give Labour, Sinn Fein or some of the independents a go. If you're lucky enough to have a socialist party candidate near you, try them for a change.

It's the lesser of a number of evils, not just two. There are alternatives, not just an alternative as many people seem to believe. We shouldn't use that rubbish excuse to justify voting FF or FG.

Anyway, I will say no more on this for fear of de-railing this thread. A lot of what Enda said in that article is true. But the MN bit is ridiculous considering how much Dublin needs it.

IIMII

BluntGuy wrote: »

(This isn't directly at you personally btw

I know. I would vote Sinn Féin if the party's economic policies were credible (I still shiver at waffly "do the people serve the economy or does the economy serve the people" line), or if Sinn Féin had any transport policies. The Green's never again. Labour is a mixed bag for me and I've always felt they were wishy washy on local issues and are more predominantly representative of public sector trade-unions. Joe Higgins I think is an idealist and I admire him for that, but wouldn't be my cup of tea in government. I don't see a party out there that I can fully identify with. I consider myself a republican but a centrist one, not left or right. What drives me mad is the constant pandering to special interests in this country whether it is the banks, the unions or the builders. I'd support a 'National Interest Party', but then the rows would start over what the National Interest is..:)

weehamster

paulm17781 wrote: »

This is my problem with the country at the minute. I have no choice but to vote FF again despite hating them. I have no faith in the sore loser who wouldn't step down after losing the last election. A man of no conviction does not deserve to lead a country.

Well, there is always Labour.

BluntGuy

IIMII wrote: »

I know. I would vote Sinn Féin if the party's economic policies were credible (I still shiver at waffly "do the people serve the economy or does the economy serve the people" line), or if Sinn Féin had any transport policies. The Green's never again. Labour is a mixed bag for me and I've always felt they were wishy washy on local issues and are more predominantly representative of public sector trade-unions. Joe Higgins I think is an idealist and I admire him for that, but wouldn't be my cup of tea in government. I don't see a party out there that I can fully identify with. I consider myself a republican but a centrist one, not left or right. What drives me mad is the constant pandering to special interests in this country whether it is the banks, the unions or the builders. I'd support a 'National Interest Party', but then the rows would start over what the National Interest is..:)

Problem is, the current perception is that right-wing is "centerist". That's partly why people vote FF. They don't realise that they are just as bad, just as extremely right as the PDs.

Labour I'm dissappointed with too. They can't describe themselves as socialists as, like you said, they pander to the fat-cat trade union execs, who aren't really a true representation of the ordinary workers. And what are their transport policies? I can't think of one unique idea...

Joe Higgens I was crushed to see booted out by his horrible constituents. It just shows what a selfish, greedy and uncaring nation we really are. One of the only men who took the industrial wage rather than lining his fat pockets with public cash. One of the only men who genuinely looked out for the ordinary people. Sickening...

Anyway, getting back on topic... (I fear the mods may be after me after that post lol)...

The greens have failed to outline any credible transport policies. It's all waffle and no action, a lot like FF. Bull**** walks I'm afraid, and the greens and FF will be out the door come the next election. Token bicycle gestures don't cut it. A proper, efficient and integrated transport system does.

What does FG propose as an alternative to MN? More buses? Hardly... Luas lines are great, but we need segregated, dedicated transport corridors as well to compliment them. MN offers this, and although I'm not happy with the medium-capacity set-up they've picked (long term thinking again obviously not a priority), it's certainly better than having nothing.

That said, I want to know all the party's views on Interconnector, because that, for me, is the big project that needs doing immediately if we're to have any kind of decent public transport. With interconnector, immediately we have links between Luas, Surburban, Dart and buses allowing us to greatly expand capacity. It would work wonders for us, and would certainly encourage a switch to public transport. It must not be shelved in favour of MN.

And let's not bring the congestion tax-...err... charge into this.

Cool Mo D

As far as I can see, none of the parties really give two hoots about public transport because they see no votes in it.

And it spending money on public transport is usually a big vote loser for the two big parties who have their most loyal base in rural areas, which strongly dislike the idea that towns and cities are more and more the economic and social centres of the country, and the hard truth that effective public transport money = spending it in urban areas.

Pisser Dignam

Interconnector before Metro North should be a no brainer. And FG didn't mention cancelling that. So that could be good news because lets face it FG are a shoe in next election.

lego

This poll was conducted a few days after Enda Kenny's Comments:
http://www.irishtimes.com/polls/index.cfm?fuseaction=yesnopoll&pollid=8753&subsiteid=356

It puts him at odds with 59% of the electorate (or at least 59% of people who visited the Irish Times website that day and bothered voting).

Cool Mo D

Interconnector is more important than Metro North alright, but it's not ready to go yet, and Metro North is. And if Metro North is cancelled, do you really think thst the interconnector won't inevitably follow?

And it's shoo-in, not shoe-in.

1huge1

Pisser Dignam wrote: »

Interconnector before Metro North should be a no brainer. And FG didn't mention cancelling that. So that could be good news because lets face it FG are a shoe in next election.

Maybe so but I hope FG come to the realisation that Enda Kenny is not fit to be Taoiseach. I'd much prefer the likes of John Bruton myself.

murphaph

Alan Dukes would have been a class Taoiseach. It wasn't to be. Kenny scares people. FF are crooks of the highest order but at least they have repeatedly stated that capital infrastructure must not be greatly reduced to pay the wages. This much is correct, now do they have the will to really make the tough cuts and tax hikes.

jrar

paulm17781 wrote: »

This is my problem with the country at the minute. I have no choice but to vote FF again despite hating them. I have no faith in the sore loser who wouldn't step down after losing the last election. A man of no conviction does not deserve to lead a country.

I cannot believe someone can come on a forum, admit to voting FF, admint to hating themand what they've done to the country, and then in the same breath state that they will vote for them again next time !!!!!!

That's exactly the attitude that has those thieving conniving swine at the trough year after year - the country needs them to spend quite some time in oppostion or preferably the wilderness.........

To be honest, you'd be doing the country a favour by abstaining at the next general election rather than wasting your vote supplying oxygen to this bunch of failures !

paulm17781

jrar wrote: »

I cannot believe someone can come on a forum, admit to voting FF, admint to hating themand what they've done to the country, and then in the same breath state that they will vote for them again next time !!!!!!

That's exactly the attitude that has those thieving conniving swine at the trough year after year - the country needs them to spend quite some time in oppostion or preferably the wilderness.........

To be honest, you'd be doing the country a favour by abstaining at the next general election rather than wasting your vote supplying oxygen to this bunch of failures !

I don't like FF. I do not see FG under Kenny as a viable alternative. Better the devil you know and all that. I never said I hated what FF have done to the country, I don't think they've done much at all. If FG would get a leader I respect, I would vote for them, Richard Bruton comes to mind but I will not vote for a man who was given a "mandate to form an alternative government" when he lost the last election. He is a coward and should step down, IMO he doesn't deserve the vote.

is_that_so

BluntGuy wrote: »

Now, not to turn this into a political debate, but this is a huge problem in this country. Why do we act like there are only two choices? FF and FG. (This isn't directly at you personally btw).

Why don't we give Labour, Sinn Fein or some of the independents a go. If you're lucky enough to have a socialist party candidate near you, try them for a change.

It's the lesser of a number of evils, not just two. There are alternatives, not just an alternative as many people seem to believe. We shouldn't use that rubbish excuse to justify voting FF or FG.

Quite probably because they are actually the only options. None of the others save Labour have persuaded the vast majority of us that they are worth a punt under any circumstances.
On topic I am also inclined to mothball and review Metro North. Currently priced it is something we cannot afford on cash terms. Maybe three years into our "Recovery plan" there may be more scope.

HydeRoad

Whatever about building a Dublin Metro to be opened by 2050 or whenever, why the bloody hell would they spend money on a Metro in these straitened times, when they are withdrawing buses and sacking bus drivers?

Put the shagging buses back out and give them more priority, the priority they should have had all along, and keep those drivers in their jobs, driving buses, and not stuck in massive jams of private cars, and that would get us by for a few years till we could pay for the bloody Metro.

Unfortunately we are saddled with a minister for transport, whose policy seems not to protect jobs, and promote public transport, but to ensure as much as possible that we all remain enslaved to the private motoring industry.

Unfortunately too, Fine Gael have never yet made a single worthy suggestion towards public transport either. At the last election but one, Olivia Mitchell paraded her proposal to fill the bus lanes full of more private cars, to 'free up road space.'

What a complete ass, the lot of them!

paulm17781

HydeRoad wrote: »

Whatever about building a Dublin Metro to be opened by 2050 or whenever, why the bloody hell would they spend money on a Metro in these straitened times,

It will employ something like 7000 people.

invincibleirish

My problem with FG is that when it comes to the issues involving C&T, they are a lite version of FF.

Witness Fergus O Dowd recently calling for the roads programme to not be scaled back, whilst Kenny calls for the Metro to be scrapped(but nothing but support for (WRC 2&3). This on top of their specific plans to privatise bus services.

FG represent the same sectional interests as FF do, they will do nothing imo to reform Irish public transport, only build more roads and keep subsidies for PT at a minimum(except to the west of the Shannon).

Lets not forget all those rural airports are in constituencies with FG TDs, and will probably have more after the next GE, somehow i doubt PSOs and a new centralised airports policy, as well as a refocus on the urban areas infrastructure needs will occur under a FG led government, especially if they are holding the transport portfolio.

Judgement Day

paulm17781 wrote: »

It will employ something like 7000 people.

You make it sound like a famine relief project! Incidentally, will any of the 7,000 be Irish workers or will the contract go to some Turkish outfit who don't pay their workers?

paulm17781

Judgement Day wrote: »

You make it sound like a famine relief project! Incidentally, will any of the 7,000 be Irish workers or will the contract go to some Turkish outfit who don't pay their workers?

There are a lot of unemployed people out there who would jump to get one of these jobs. With the other T21 projects you're talking a sizable number of people getting some work.

I'd like to think the workers will be resident in Ireland and getting a competitive wage. I don't care where they're from. 7,000 (metro, never mind rest of T21) people back to work is the same amount spending money. That has a knock on effect to the rest of the economy.

Victor

HydeRoad wrote: »

Unfortunately we are saddled with a CORRUPT minister for transport, whose policy is not to protect jobs, and promote public transport, but to ensure as much as possible that we all remain enslaved to the private motoring industry.

I think this is a bit too far. Sure, there was systematic corruption within politics and FF in particular, but whatever about him making a series of bad choices and perhaps not being the most informed, do you have any evidence of actual curruption by Dempsey himself?

Cool Mo D

Victor wrote: »

I think this is a bit too far. Sure, there was systematic corruption within politics and FF in particular, but whatever about him making a series of bad choices and perhaps not being the most informed, do you have any evidence of actual curruption by Dempsey himself?

The scary thing is Dempsey is actually more competent than the last few transport ministers (the bar was set quite low!), and Olivia Mitchell, his FG opposite number is a terrifying prospect as she doesn't understand or care about public transport. I don't see any Irish party with vision on transport, especially public transport.

DWCommuter

paulm17781 wrote: »

There are a lot of unemployed people out there who would jump to get one of these jobs. With the other T21 projects you're talking a sizable number of people getting some work.

I'd like to think the workers will be resident in Ireland and getting a competitive wage. I don't care where they're from. 7,000 (metro, never mind rest of T21) people back to work is the same amount spending money. That has a knock on effect to the rest of the economy.

In fairness Paul, T21 projects wouldn't put a dint in the level of unemployment in the construction sector. Ignore that spin as its just a ploy. If you compare T21 projects to the amount of housing estates that were being built a few years ago, T21 pales into insignificance as a job provider.

Despite FGs opinion and that of Michael O'Leary (he doesn't even understand the project anyway) the general concensus among economists and commentators tends to be negative in relation to MN. Eventhough its a pay as you go deal, when you see a Government scrounging here and there for literally a couple of hundred million to help balance the books, you cannot be confident about MN. In uncertain times and with the future looking bleak, its a big commitment. Considering the history of Irish Politics, I believe its a commitment that won't be undertaken.

I understand that people here enjoy talking about these exciting projects, but I'd urge you to start dealing in reality. The Transport lessons to be learned from Irelands first economic boom are huge and very important. If good times ever come back again, all of you should be armed with the details of what went on during this period.

We should spend less time talking about the pretty bits that the Government pay people to look after and spend more time talking about the ugly bits. That should be the central focus of voters.