Fine Gael/labour election campaign 2007

cm2000

A quick question for you Fine Gael/Labour folks out there...

In the 2007 general election Enda Kenny and Pat Rabbitte ran a campaign on the basis of, in my opinion, a ridiculous political stunt. Among the promises made in this contract were

- Free health insurance for every child under 16.
- Free GP visits for every child under five.
- Lower income taxes for every taxpayer - every taxpayer.
- an end to Stamp Duty as we know it. Lower rates for everyone. And we will abolish stamp duty for almost all first-time buyers.

Enda Kenny said "Tonight then, I want to be absolutely clear. Having fulfilled this contract, and only having fulfilled this contract, will I stand again, before you, the people of Ireland, and ask you to re-elect me as Taoiseach. And if I have not, I will not."

My Question is this... Do you now acknowledge that given the circumstances of the economic recession which may not have been foreseeable but are always possible, that the notion of absolute commitments irrespective of circumstances is wrong? And hypothetically would Enda, had he been elected Taoiseach, have cut income tax and further exploded the deficit or would he have duly not stood for election when the reality of governance smacked him in the face..

opinions please, especially from those who lauded the campaign.

nuttz

hahaha!

I had to laugh at that.

It seems so irrelevant now. They all have promises and I'm sure the FF/Labour/etc were as bad.

Agent Smith

Its Been Approx 22 months Since the Last general Election, In Politics, thats a Lifetime.

Just so you know, I have no figures infront of me, so bare with me if this seems a little Far-fetched

- Free health insurance for every child under 16.
- Free GP visits for every child under five.

I think these are/can be still possiable. I honnestly believe that Major amounts of money are being Mis-spent by the department of Health, (amonst other departments) and I honnestly do support the idea of Free Healthcare for Children, Once its means Tested at a realistic rate.
eg.
2 income family, 1 child, 50k+ Pay
1 income family 2 children 60k Free


(now once again, i have no figures, and the figures above are totally used as an example, and should not be taken into account.

The 1916 proclamation wrote:

The Republic guarantees religious and civil liberty, equal rights and equal opportunities to all its citizens, and declares its resolve to pursue the happiness and prosperity of the whole nation and all of its parts, cherishing all of the children of the nation equally

This above could be used as a Agruement that Free universial Healthcare should be provided to all Children. Personally, and this is my own personal belief, Agree with this Argument.

cm2000

nuttz wrote: »

hahaha!

I had to laugh at that.

It seems so irrelevant now. They all have promises and I'm sure the FF/Labour/etc were as bad.

The point was that FF made promises based on certain figures, they always maintained that these were based on future projections. If those projections changed then so would policy.

cm2000

Agent Smith wrote: »

Its Been Approx 22 months Since the Last general Election, In Politics, thats a Lifetime.

Just so you know, I have no figures infront of me, so bare with me if this seems a little Far-fetched

- Free health insurance for every child under 16.
- Free GP visits for every child under five.

I think these are/can be still possiable. I honnestly believe that Major amounts of money are being Mis-spent by the department of Health, (amonst other departments) and I honnestly do support the idea of Free Healthcare for Children, Once its means Tested at a realistic rate.
eg.
2 income family, 1 child, 50k+ Pay
1 income family 2 children 60k Free


(now once again, i have no figures, and the figures above are totally used as an example, and should not be taken into account.



This above could be used as a Agruement that Free universial Healthcare should be provided to all Children. Personally, and this is my own personal belief, Agree with this Argument.

and lower income taxes for EVERYONE in a contracting economy??
how do you budget for that assuming you are completely right about the above

nuttz

cm2000 wrote: »

And hypothetically would Enda, had he been elected Taoiseach, have cut income tax and further exploded the deficit or would he have duly not stood for election when the reality of governance smacked him in the face..

opinions please, especially from those who lauded the campaign.

Had Enda Kenny been elected, I think he would have crumbled under the pressure, sadly I think his time is gone. His time is gone and has no future leading this country, as long as he is leader in FG he is doing FF a favour.

Agent Smith

cm2000 wrote: »

and lower income taxes for EVERYONE in a contracting economy??
how do you budget for that assuming you are completely right about the above

Well, As I said, I have no figures Infront of me, But i do feel that Money is being squandered With little or no return whatsoever.

Look at the e-voting machines for example.

sceptre

cm2000 wrote: »

and lower income taxes for EVERYONE in a contracting economy??

A traditional Keynesian would say that's exactly what you should do. Of course, when your taxes are low throughout the boom and you can't bring them much lower regardless, it isn't really an option under such circumstances. You're not going to get much of a result having a Keynesian in charge of a recession when you've insisted on putting a rampant Sayist in charge of the boom.

(incidentally, I've no idea what Kenny's actual economic views are or even, like Cowen, if he actually has any)

cm2000

sceptre wrote: »

A traditional Keynesian would say that's exactly what you should do. Of course, when your taxes are low throughout the boom and you can't bring them much lower regardless, it isn't really an option under such circumstances. You're not going to get much of a result having a Keynesian in charge of a recession when you've insisted on putting a rampant Sayist in charge of the boom.

(incidentally, I've no idea what Kenny's actual economic views are or even, like Cowen, if he actually has any)

apologies i meant to specify our problems, we simply don't have the scope to deficit finance a tax cut given our fiscal crisis.

eoinbn

that the notion of absolute commitments irrespective of circumstances is wrong?

It wasn't like that. He basically said that he will do X/Y/Z and if he didn't manage that he wouldn't seek re-election. That's very different to what you are suggesting which is that he would fulfil his 'contract' no matter the cost to the country.

edit: I know it might shock people, but there are a few people that put country before party or themselves. But we have been electing the Mé Féin party to fill potholes for so long that we have forgot about them.

Het-Field

The 2007 General Election was Auction Politics at its best. Even the Labour Party attempted to bandwagon on the Low Tax, giveaway economy as they attempted to compete with the two main parties.


As a (soon to be) former Progressive Democrat, I used get very pissed off at the party for using the "Dont Throw it all Away" slogan. However, in retrospect it was a slogan which forewarned the troubled times. No other party was willing to engage in such a negative (but true statement) Fianna Fail's "The Next Steps" rings hollow now.

eoinbn

Het-Field wrote: »

As a (soon to be) former Progressive Democrat, I used get very pissed off at the party for using the "Dont Throw it all Away" slogan. However, in retrospect it was a slogan which forewarned the troubled times. No other party was willing to engage in such a negative (but true statement) Fianna Fail's "The Next Steps" rings hollow now.

It forewarned that if we replaced FF&PD's which a 'left wing' government, basically anythign with labour in it, that we would damage the economy. In reality the damage was already done by FF&PD's and there is little that any incoming government could of done to avert the current crisis.

Tableman

It forewarned that if we replaced FF&PD's which a 'left wing' government, basically anythign with labour in it, that we would damage the economy. In reality the damage was already done by FF&PD's and there is little that any incoming government could of done to avert the current crisis.

Imagine how great Fianna Fail would look now if it was Fine Gael who had got in in that election.

Had Enda Kenny been elected, I think he would have crumbled under the pressure, sadly I think his time is gone. His time is gone and has no future leading this country, as long as he is leader in FG he is doing FF a favour.

Wasnt there a leadership challenge not long before the last election by some young guys? I wonder if they would consider doing something similar now...

Sully

Firstly, lets bare in mind that FF have made a lot of promises during elections and have failed to deliver on them. So lets just bare that in mind when people knock FG & Labour for their promises. Personally, I think FG would have delivered on as much as possible if the climate was the same as it was back then. I don't think it was an election gimmick to get in and then forget their promises. I believe, despite the strange way of going about it, FG would have done well. Despite not getting into government, FG under Enda Kenny did very very well compared to other FG leaders in the last general election.l

Looking at everything as it is now, I don't think anybody would expect the promises to be acted upon. I think FG would have had to draw up a whole new "contract" with a new plan of recovery implementing as much as the previous promises they could. I think the new plan would be different to the current governments plan in the interest of complete fairness. But that's a different topic.

Would Enda/FG collapse under the pressure? I don't think they would let themselves for a start, and I don't think the groups backing them would allow for it to happen either. I think they would do their best and do a better job. I don't think it would be as big a crisis as the current government have. Regardless, people are now considering FG to be an alternative - what difference would it make them coming into power now or earlier? They would have still had to act the same way.

Is FG/Enda finished? No, I don't think so. People wrote him off because he didn't manage to get into power but his supporters don't see it that way because he pulled the party up from the dungeons and got close enough. Now his party is topping the opinion polls for the last 6 months or so. All under the leadership of Enda Kenny. If Enda was a thorn in the side to the party, I don't think they would have achieved as much as they have done.

thebman

cm2000 wrote: »

A quick question for you Fine Gael/Labour folks out there...

In the 2007 general election Enda Kenny and Pat Rabbitte ran a campaign on the basis of, in my opinion, a ridiculous political stunt. Among the promises made in this contract were

- Free health insurance for every child under 16.
- Free GP visits for every child under five.
- Lower income taxes for every taxpayer - every taxpayer.
- an end to Stamp Duty as we know it. Lower rates for everyone. And we will abolish stamp duty for almost all first-time buyers.

Enda Kenny said "Tonight then, I want to be absolutely clear. Having fulfilled this contract, and only having fulfilled this contract, will I stand again, before you, the people of Ireland, and ask you to re-elect me as Taoiseach. And if I have not, I will not."

My Question is this... Do you now acknowledge that given the circumstances of the economic recession which may not have been foreseeable but are always possible, that the notion of absolute commitments irrespective of circumstances is wrong? And hypothetically would Enda, had he been elected Taoiseach, have cut income tax and further exploded the deficit or would he have duly not stood for election when the reality of governance smacked him in the face..

opinions please, especially from those who lauded the campaign.

The thing to remember is that all the parties were runnin on not only the economy continuing to be good but continuing to expand.

All parties promised a load of nonsense precisely because they knew they would never have to deliver it IMO.

It was obvious that we weren't going to have the growth levels that all their promises were assuming we were going to have.

The thing is though that once one party starts this ridiculous promising all the others have to follow or you end up in a situation where one parties lies will get them elected.

They all knew it was wrong at the times IMO. The way I'd look at it is that you should view that as a list of things they would do if they had the money to. They don't but if they return us to economic stability then that is a likely list of things they would like to do although its subject to change of course :P

Sully

thebman wrote: »

The thing to remember is that all the parties were runnin on not only the economy continuing to be good but continuing to expand.

All parties promised a load of nonsense precisely because they knew they would never have to deliver it IMO.

It was obvious that we weren't going to have the growth levels that all their promises were assuming we were going to have.

The thing is though that once one party starts this ridiculous promising all the others have to follow or you end up in a situation where one parties lies will get them elected.

They all knew it was wrong at the times IMO. The way I'd look at it is that you should view that as a list of things they would do if they had the money to. They don't but if they return us to economic stability then that is a likely list of things they would like to do although its subject to change of course :P

To be fair, I don't think any party expected things to be this bad. I think FF would have known it was going to be pretty bad but I am not sure any of the other party's realised it.

thebman

Come on, I knew it was going to be bad and I have nothing to do with politics and was in college at the time studying computers.

They all knew it, you can be damn sure they all knew it. Its their business to know it and it was in the media in the background at the time too that we were starting to go downhill.

Obviously nobody knew the global financial system was going to collapse and we would struggle to borrow to make up our deficit but they all knew it was fantasy.

Darragh29

cm2000 wrote: »

A quick question for you Fine Gael/Labour folks out there...

In the 2007 general election Enda Kenny and Pat Rabbitte ran a campaign on the basis of, in my opinion, a ridiculous political stunt. Among the promises made in this contract were

- Free health insurance for every child under 16.
- Free GP visits for every child under five.
- Lower income taxes for every taxpayer - every taxpayer.
- an end to Stamp Duty as we know it. Lower rates for everyone. And we will abolish stamp duty for almost all first-time buyers.

Enda Kenny said "Tonight then, I want to be absolutely clear. Having fulfilled this contract, and only having fulfilled this contract, will I stand again, before you, the people of Ireland, and ask you to re-elect me as Taoiseach. And if I have not, I will not."

My Question is this... Do you now acknowledge that given the circumstances of the economic recession which may not have been foreseeable but are always possible, that the notion of absolute commitments irrespective of circumstances is wrong? And hypothetically would Enda, had he been elected Taoiseach, have cut income tax and further exploded the deficit or would he have duly not stood for election when the reality of governance smacked him in the face..

opinions please, especially from those who lauded the campaign.

Of course it is. I just made a decision to never vote for FG. They tell us they know what is best for the country, but going by the poll out tomorrow, they don't even know what is right for their own party, so therefore they must be stupid and if they are stupid, then why vote for them.

Look at the state of this country right now and the hatred now felt for FF and Cowen and even on the back of all of that, they still don't look like a credible alternative government. They had an excuse when Bertie was around and the Teflon Taoiseacht and all that caper, now they have an open goal and they still can't find the net. It would be funny if the stakes were not so high...

Sully

Darragh29 wrote: »

Of course it is. I just made a decision to never vote for FG. They tell us they know what is best for the country, but going by the poll out tomorrow, they don't even know what is right for their own party, so therefore they must be stupid and if they are stupid, then why vote for them.

Once again, I dont think any party knew what was going to happen. If they did, it would have been common sense for the opposition to try make enough noise about it. The ideas set out by the last election were on the basis that the economy would not be as rightly ****ed as it is now. Come off it now, seriously. Never going to vote for FG because you think they lied during the GE knowing they would never have to do anything anyway?! No partys that stupid.

Look at the state of this country right now and the hatred now felt for FF and Cowen and even on the back of all of that, they still don't look like a credible alternative government. They had an excuse when Bertie was around and the Teflon Taoiseacht and all that caper, now they have an open goal and they still can't find the net. It would be funny if the stakes were not so high...

The polls would suggest different. The FG party has gone from strength to strength since the election. Lets bare in mind that NO party, despite fighting and having an open goal like you say, has managed to score. Not even Labour - FG are still the perfered party according to the opinion polls. So your point kinda goes out the window.