Modern Irish Air Corps?

maxxie

why do our air corps not have fast interceptor jets? in this day and age why should we rely on the RAF?

dbyrne

ireland population 5 million, no empire, little export/industrial business, nuetral country
uk population 60+ million, massive empire brought massive wealth, massive export/industrial, plans of world domination...

unfortunetly we do need an aircorps for self defence/ drug watching etc but we will never have them

Steyr

maxxie wrote: »

why do our air corps not have fast interceptor jets? in this day and age why should we rely on the RAF?

Why not lobby your local TD and ask why.

Run_to_da_hills

They had the de Havilland Vampire training jets and that is just about as far as they got. (Apart from the Government Jets)

There is one on desplay in Air Corps livery at National Museum, Collins Barracks, Dublin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:IrishAirCorps_deHavilland_Vampires_1955.jpg

Captain Chaos

We had Fouga trainers aswell. There is one in the workshop in DIT Bolton street. Sat in the cockpit of it, which was a tight fit head room wise and that was with the seat removed!

cherrypicker555

dbyrne wrote: »

ireland population 5 million, no empire, little export/industrial business, nuetral country
uk population 60+ million, massive empire brought massive wealth, massive export/industrial, plans of world domination...

unfortunetly we do need an aircorps for self defence/ drug watching etc but we will never have them

Sweden has fighter squadrons yet only 6 million people.

cherrypicker555

maxxie wrote: »

why do our air corps not have fast interceptor jets? in this day and age why should we rely on the RAF?

Because of the massive cost, fighter jets need massive logistical support from groundcrew.


Also the republic has no real strategic threat.

Captain Chaos

So does Switzerland with a pop. of about 7.5mil who are also neutral.

Sweden even design and build all their own fighters and have a history of doing so.

Fact is they were closer to the old Soviet threat back in the day.

Most importantly they can afford it we cannot.

Captain Chaos

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

Because of the massive cost, fighter jets need massive logistical support from groundcrew.

Not always true, take a look at Sweden's latest fighter the JAS-39. Very little support from ground crew to keep up even with a short war/skirmish. It can and does use highways as runways with bases built into hidden forests.

We can't even build decent highways so there you go.

BrianD

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

Sweden has fighter squadrons yet only 6 million people.

Because Sweden as a real 'neutral' country has chosen to defend it's neutrality and also has a history of being an agressive nation prior to that. It also is a neighbour of Russia.

In reality, Ireland has weighed up the odds and decided that there are two options - we will either be nuked or invaded. Little we can do against ICBM's If we are invaded it will come from the east and they'll have to wade through NATO. Call us cheap but perhaps we're clever and weighed up the odds.

In regard tp potential 9/11 style attacks, it's unlikely that this will happen again and even so history has demonstrated that having one of the largest air forces in the world offers little defence to this type of attack.

cherrypicker555

BrianD wrote: »

Because Sweden as a real 'neutral' country has chosen to defend it's neutrality and also has a history of being an agressive nation prior to that. It also is a neighbour of Russia.

In reality, Ireland has weighed up the odds and decided that there are two options - we will either be nuked or invaded. Little we can do against ICBM's If we are invaded it will come from the east and they'll have to wade through NATO. Call us cheap but perhaps we're clever and weighed up the odds.

In regard tp potential 9/11 style attacks, it's unlikely that this will happen again and even so history has demonstrated that having one of the largest air forces in the world offers little defence to this type of attack.

But if you take that line then that puts into question the role of the defence forces and ability to carry out that role.

Little point in maintaining mechanised infantry without air support.

diverdriver

There are a lot of things this country doesn't have that are taken for granted in other European countries. We are more like a second rate South American country attached to the continent of Europe. We only recently got the hang of the idea that motorways go for more than ten miles. Not that we've got a motorway yet that actualy connects two cities. We are quite backward in many ways still, which is now highlighted by the recession. But that's politics.

The Air Corps was debated on another thread, here or on the military forum.
It's the same with aviation and the Air Corps. I don't think there is a worse equipped military in Europe and the Air Corps is very definitely practically useless in any defensive or indeed any military role. But as it happens, we really don't need interceptors as the threat is negligible, not only that we have no committments to NATO or overseas deployments.

But in practical terms we cannot afford modern fast jets. You see, it's not as simple as buying a few used F16s from the US, we need infrastructure to house them, decent long runways, military radar, personnel, logistics, weapons. I wonder how many civil servants you'd have to fire to raise the money for that?

So it's non runner. Indeed I have argued that we really don't need the Air Corps as it's established. Most of it's roles could be done more cheaply and efficiently by civilian contractors. SAR being a prime example that works better without the Air Corps. As it stands the Air Corps is little better than an advanced flying club. The PC-9s are boy toys to keep the pilots happy and have no useful military role other than training. But even then they are the equivalent of learning to drive in Rally cars.

Simply a waste of money as it stands.

Sleipnir

maxxie wrote: »

why do our air corps not have fast interceptor jets? in this day and age why should we rely on the RAF?

What do we need to intercept?

Steyr

Sleipnir wrote: »

What do we need to intercept?

Whatever may need interception/observation in Irish Controlled Airspace. Like it or not we should be doing this work we are a Soverign Nation so it's a shambles that we need others to do this for us in our Airspace. Complete joke.

Everybody seems to hark on about jets being so expensive etc which is a joke just look at Swedens Gripen which is a multirole aircraft and requires minimum care. To be honest id rather have them and not use them other than need them and not have them.

Steyr

READ THIS, hell even we could operate her...

Saab 39 Gripen Specifications
Primary Function: Multi-role fighter
Contractor: Saab
Crew: N/A
Unit Cost: N/A
Powerplant
One General Electric/Volvo Flygmotor RM12 afterburning turbofan, 18,100 lb thrust
Dimensions
Length: 46 ft 3 in (14.1 m)
Wingspan: 27 ft 7 in (8.4 m)
Height: 14 ft 9 in (4.5 m)
Weights
Empty: 14,600 lb
Maximum Takeoff: 27,560 lb
Performance
Speed: 1,321 mph (2,126 km/h)
Ceiling: 50,000 ft
Range: N/A
Armament
One Mauser BK27 27mm cannon, plus up to 14,330 lb including Rb74/AIM-120 AAMs, Rb15F/Rb75 ASMs, free-fall bombs, rockets, DWS 39 submunition dispensor weapons, recce/sensor pods, and fuel tanks on eight external points

^ Top ^

Saab 39 Gripen Achievements
The Saab 39 will act as Sweden's first class jet fighter.
The Gripen is arguably the first fourth-generation fighter to enter service.
^ Top ^

Saab 39 Gripen Features In designing the aircraft, several layouts were studied. Saab ultimately selected an unstable canard design. The canard configuration gives a high onset of pitch rate and low drag, enabling the aircraft to be faster, have longer range and carry a larger payload.

The combination of delta wing and canards gives the Gripen significantly better takeoff and landing performance and flying characteristics. The totally integrated avionics make it a "programmable" aircraft. It also has a built-in electronic warfare unit, making it possible to load more ordnance onto the aircraft without losing self defence capabilities.

The Gripen affords more flexibility than earlier generations of combat aircraft used by Sweden, and its operating costs are about two thirds of those for JA 37 Viggen.

In the Swedish Air Force's list of requirements was the ability to operate from 800 m runways. Early on in the programme, all flights from Saab's facility in Linkeping were flown from within a 9 m x 800 m outline painted on the runway. Stopping distance was reduced by extending the relatively large air brakes; using the control surfaces to push the aircraft down, enabling the wheel brakes to apply more force and tilting the canards forwards, making them into large air brakes and further pushing the aircraft down.

The Gripen uses the modern PS-05/A pulse-doppler X-band radar, developed by Ericsson and GEC-Marconi, and based on the latter's advanced Blue Vixen radar for the Sea Harrier (which inspired the Eurofighter's CAPTOR radar as well).

The radar is capable of detecting, locating, identifying and automatically tracking multiple targets in the upper and lower spheres, on the ground and sea or in the air, in all weather conditions. It can guide four air to air missiles (e.g. AIM-120 AMRAAM, MBDA MICA) simultaneously at four different targets.

The cockpit has three full colour head down displays and digital emergency instrument presentation unique to the aircraft. The cockpit layout provides a human-machine interface that eases pilot workload substantially and increases situational awareness, but still provides substantial future growth potential. The pilot flies the aircraft by means of a centre stick and left hand throttles.

The cockpit provides a display area some 30 per cent larger than that available in most other fighters, with the multi-function displays taking up around 75 per cent of available space.

It is dominated by three large (15.7 x 21 cm) active-matrix, liquid crystal, multi-function displays and a wide angle (20 x 28 degree) head-up display (HUD). The displays are equipped with light sensors for computer assisted brightness and contrast control

One interesting feature is the Gripen's ability to land on public roads, which was part of Sweden's war defence strategy. The aircraft is designed to be able to operate also if the air force does not have air superiority.

During the Cold war, the Swedish Armed Forces were preparing to defend against a possible invasion from the Soviet Union. Even though the defensive strategy in principle called for an absolute defence of Swedish territory, military planners calculated that Swedish defence forces could eventually be overrun. For that reason, Sweden had military stores dispersed all over the country, in order to maintain the capacity of inflicting damage on the enemy even if military installations were lost.

Accordingly, among the requirements from the Swedish Air Force was that the Gripen fighter should be able to land on public roads near military stores for quick maintenance, and take off again. As a result, the Gripen fighter can be refueled and re-armed in ten minutes by a five man mobile ground crew operating out of a truck, and then resume flying sorties.

In the post-Cold War era, these dispersed operation capabilities have proved to be of great value for a different purpose. The Gripen fighter system is expeditionary in nature, and therefore well suited for peace-keeping missions worldwide, which has become the new main task of the Swedish Armed Forces.
^ Top ^

Saab 39 Gripen Background By the late 1970s a replacement for Sweden's ageing Saab 35 Drakens and Saab 37 Viggens was needed.A new fighter was being considered by 1979,with design studies beginning the following year.The development of the Gripen began in 1982 with approval from Swedish Parliament.

The Gripen was designed for performance, flexibility, effectiveness and survivability in air combat. The designation JAS stands for Jakt (Air-to-Air), Attack (Air-to-Surface), and Spaning (Reconnaissance), indicating that the Gripen is a multirole or swingrole fighter aircraft that can fulfill each mission type. The JAS 39 got its name Gripen through a public competition in 1982.The griffin is the heraldry on Saab's logo and suited the multirole characteristics of the aircraft. Furthermore, the griffin is the symbolic animal on the coat of arms of Ostergetland, the province in which Saab AB is headquartered (Linkeping).

Sweden chose to develop the Gripen rather than purchase a variant of the F-16, F/A-18A/B, or the "F-5S" version of the Northrop F-20 Tigershark.

The first Gripen was rolled out on 26 April 1987, marking Saab's 50th anniversary.The first prototype first flew on 9 December 1988.

Sleipnir

Steyr wrote: »

Whatever may need interception/observation in Irish Controlled Airspace. Like it or not we should be doing this work we are a Soverign Nation so it's a shambles that we need others to do this for us in our Airspace. Complete joke.

Everybody seems to hark on about jets being so expensive etc which is a joke just look at Swedens Gripen which is a multirole aircraft and requires minimum care. To be honest id rather have them and not use them other than need them and not have them.

But what is the thing that we might need to intercept? Enemy fighters? From where? From who? The U.K.?
They'd decimate our air-force using land-based systems anyway. Even if we did manage to get a few planes up, their air-force would again decimate ours.
The U.S?
A decent AA system would be enough given the size of the country

The thing is to have them and not need them is by definition, a total waste of money.

Captain Chaos

Sleipnir wrote: »

What do we need to intercept?

If we actually had the fighters, Russian bombers 30 miles north of Donegal like the RAF do and did at least 5-6 times last year. They chased them from Scotland to Donegal before the RAF fighters ran low on fuel. They went back to refuel and send up replacements and caught the bombers on the way home. But that's just to show the Russians that the RAF are watching them nothing more. They toy around on our North and West coast because they know no one will bother them there as we have nothing and it's just outside RAF fighter range.

Then there was the case just this week when 2 Belgian F-16s were sent to intercept an airliner because air traffic control could not contact it because of a mix up with French ATC. The two fighters had to go supersonic to catch it. They went supersconic over land which is only allowed in an emergency and they shockwaves brought down a ceiling in a local shop.

Airliners are regularly intercepted over Europe each year because of communication and route issues.

So when you think about it what does any country have to intercept really beacause no one is a war with anyone else. Any intercepts today are all my air force is better than yours type of thing. Most fighters today are really for support ground troops and providing a show of force with fly bys.

What were the last things that were shot down in air to air.
A Russian MiG-29 shot down a Georgian UAV drone last year.

A few US F-15s and a Dutch F-16 shot down about 5-6 MiG-29s over Kosovo is 1999.

Ethiopa and Eritera had a few dogfights both sides using Russian MiG-29s and one also having the Su-27, with losses on both sides.

Greece and Turky have almost daily dogfights in F-16s with each other over disputed airspace boarder zones. They never fire at each other but they are aggressive and a few pilots have died from G-loc because of these encounters.

diverdriver

Whatever the merits of getting a real air force. It's not going to happen, I would say ever! Even if you ignore the recession, there simply isn't the will or interest in having a proper military. It's characteristic of the way we do everything in Ireland. I mentioned the roads, we have the railways a shambles, bus services a joke, sports facilities shambolic, look how long it took to get a world class stadium here or an Olympic size swimming pool. According to recent report on the Olympics, we should have got around 40 medals for a country our size. We got three.

We haven't even got the basic services right that in every other European country is taken for granted.

And you want to get fast jets for the Air Corps:eek: The army doesn't even have an adequate infantry fighting vehicle, never mind tanks. We have no air defence to speak of and a navy that is essentially consists of coastal patrol vessels. We don't even have military spec helicopters. If the Air Corps got fast jets, it would need to be expanded and retrained. It would take years to get up to any kind of operational efficiency at huge expense.

It's never going to happen, simple as that.

Captain Chaos

We do have mil spec choppers. EC-135 and AW-139 I think they are, they are used in other EU armies and air forces. Even the US use one of them bought them recently and are planning on buying more for search and rescue of downed pilots.

Yes we do have very limited air defence with the bofors AA guns which can be linked to a radar tracking system. We also have short range SAMs aswell, can't remember the type but it is along the lines of the Stinger.

As for the training of our pilots for fast jets. Thats what the PC-9s are for. The US use a version of it called the T-6 for training their front line fast jet pilots. They start in that and move to a T-38 before the F-15 or F-16.

The PC-9s are one of the top high performance turbo props trainers. It's all a matter of money which needs to else where and spent properly in this country with out the fat cats creaming it off the top.

amen

If we are invaded it will come from the east

maybe not Ireland would be a good jumping off place for a UK/Europe invavision.

Invaded Ireland and then hop to the next country. Use Ireland as a Island aircraft carrier and base. Of course you might have to kill a lot of irish citizens
but if I were an asian country looking for a foothold in Europe invade Ireland from the west. Country could be conquered in a few hours.

diverdriver

We do have mil spec choppers. EC-135 and AW-139 I think they are, they are used in other EU armies and air forces. Even the US use one of them bought them recently and are planning on buying more for search and rescue of downed pilots.

Sadly they're not mil spec, basically off the shelf, which isn't such an issue with the EC135 as it's a trainer and general utility helicopter. The 139 is not military apart from a gun mounting and a few other touches. They are not deployable overseas or frankly far away from Baldonnel. It's hardly comparable to the UH-60.

I think the US bought heli you are thinking of is the UH-72 which is a version of the EC145 not the 135. That has being modified for military purposes, but it is not intended that it be deployed in combat or even outside the United States.

You're right about the PC-9s, there are lead in training to fast jets. Only we don't have any. As it is right now they train pilots whose first operational flying is on Cessna 172s and helicopters. They are a pure waste of money. The training could be done a lot cheaper. We don't need them.

boogyboogy

Personally I cannot see really any point in Ireland having a jet powered air force, 1:How many american companies have interests here?Do you think america would let Ireland be invaded, I don't, besides mcq's having strong political power in america we are one of its closets friends and there is a strong historical connection there.How many americans have you met claiming to be Irish?
2: Even if we were invaded the military would be over run-If Iraq can spend millions upon millions of oil money on its military and still be defeated within a few weeks what chance have our lads got. What about georgia-they had alot of investment in military in the last two years and still got their a$$es kicked.
Our strong diplomatic ties with the world military powers is as best a defense as we are likely to have against attack IMO-its pretty cost effective too:D

maxxie

So there will never be an Irish "Top Gun"!

Thats my dream ruined, thanks lads :pac:

Captain Chaos

Georgia had next to no air force. It had a few out dated Russian attack fighters for close air support only and a few few attack choppers with pilots that were not trained very well. Look what they were up against, they would have needed a USN carrier battle group to put up a decent defence.

Iraq had the 4th largest airforce in the world in the Gulf War of 1991. They, for the most part didn't have the training or the will to fight the USAF and USN in the air. Most of their airforce was destoryed on the ground from bombing a few fighters and bombers fled to Iran where they were captured.

The USAF, USN and RSAF got about 37 air to air kills between them against the Iraqi air force for one loss.

Isreal is a good example of what an airforce can do, regardless of their actions over the years look how they defended themselves in the 6 day war in the 70s. Only for their airforce equiped mainly with US fighters and some French with very good training, Isreal would have been wiped out back then.

I'm not for a second saying that we need one as by the time it gets that bad it would all be over anyway.

cherrypicker555

Sleipnir wrote: »

But what is the thing that we might need to intercept? Enemy fighters? From where? From who? The U.K.?
They'd decimate our air-force using land-based systems anyway. Even if we did manage to get a few planes up, their air-force would again decimate ours.
The U.S?
A decent AA system would be enough given the size of the country

The thing is to have them and not need them is by definition, a total waste of money.

Agree, mobile air defence systems in proper numbers would be cheaper and more effective.

The Serbs took down numerous NATO aircraft this way.

Aer corps jet fighters would be destroyed before they got off the ground by a superior force.

The only way the republic will ever get fighter sqds is by joining NATO, which is a non starter.

diverdriver

maxxie wrote: »

So there will never be an Irish "Top Gun"!

Thats my dream ruined, thanks lads :pac:

If you were born and live in the Republic of Ireland you can never be a fighter pilot. In the North yes. Which is a pity really. No Topguns!:(

maxxie

diverdriver wrote: »

If you were born and live in the Republic of Ireland you can never be a fighter pilot. In the North yes. Which is a pity really. No Topguns!:(

I could join the RAF and borrow a tornado or something, bring it home n put a tricolour on it. Granted id be pursued n shot down very quickly! But the whole of those three minutes avading my pursuers would be fun! So if ya here sonicbooms in the sky its probably me so wave!

Steyr

Captain Chaos wrote: »

We do have mil spec choppers. EC-135 and AW-139 I think they are, they are used in other EU armies and air forces.

AFAIK we are the only Mil customer to have the AW139 and she is not of Military Spec either is the EC-135. The AW139 is used in the UK by HM CoastGuard.

BrianD

amen wrote: »

maybe not Ireland would be a good jumping off place for a UK/Europe invavision.

Invaded Ireland and then hop to the next country. Use Ireland as a Island aircraft carrier and base. Of course you might have to kill a lot of irish citizens
but if I were an asian country looking for a foothold in Europe invade Ireland from the west. Country could be conquered in a few hours.

I think we might be a greater possibility of some whales invading us then the North Koreans sailing half way around the world or popping out of a Yak jet in Shannon.

BrianD

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

But if you take that line then that puts into question the role of the defence forces and ability to carry out that role.

Little point in maintaining mechanised infantry without air support.

True, but an infantry can operate as an aide to civil power and if in an war time environment as a para military force. Both Iraq and Serbia were denied air power but held quite a grip on the ground.

Also Ireland can contribute to peace keeping missions. We provide the infantry while another country provides the air power. This is what is effectively happening in Chad.

Poccington

boogyboogy wrote: »

Personally I cannot see really any point in Ireland having a jet powered air force, 1:How many american companies have interests here?Do you think america would let Ireland be invaded, I don't, besides mcq's having strong political power in america we are one of its closets friends and there is a strong historical connection there.How many americans have you met claiming to be Irish?
2: Even if we were invaded the military would be over run-If Iraq can spend millions upon millions of oil money on its military and still be defeated within a few weeks what chance have our lads got. What about georgia-they had alot of investment in military in the last two years and still got their a$$es kicked.
Our strong diplomatic ties with the world military powers is as best a defense as we are likely to have against attack IMO-its pretty cost effective too:D

Well if there was an invasion, the Yanks would be a bit late when they arrived to the fight.

As for your argument regarding Iraq/Georgia with their military spending and then the results of conflicts they were involved in. Anyone can spend lots of money on their military but if the training they recieve is ****e well then having gucci equipment is **** all use. A 3* Private in the DF is a well trained soldier by international standards, it just so happens that the DF suffers from a ridiculous lack of funding which limits it's overall capabilities quite considerably.

cherrypicker555

Poccington wrote: »

Well if there was an invasion, the Yanks would be a bit late when they arrived to the fight.

As for your argument regarding Iraq/Georgia with their military spending and then the results of conflicts they were involved in. Anyone can spend lots of money on their military but if the training they recieve is ****e well then having gucci equipment is **** all use. A 3* Private in the DF is a well trained soldier by international standards, it just so happens that the DF suffers from a ridiculous lack of funding which limits it's overall capabilities quite considerably.

But the lack of funding hampers the training of PDF solders due to having such limited equipment and lack of battalion sized training operations in conjunction with air support, armour etc.

And the fact the PDF does not serve in combat and much of its role is aiding the civil powers at home has created an ethos whereby the PDF does not need to be always being ready to deploy at short notice.

It does not even have a proper assault course ffs.

I would seriously doubt PDF infantry battalions being physically and psychologically ready to serve in an ardous combat role in their present form.

Poccington

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

But the lack of funding hampers the training of PDF solders due to having such limited equipment and lack of battalion sized training operations in conjunction with air support, armour etc.

And the fact the PDF does not serve in combat and much of its role is aiding the civil powers at home has created an ethos whereby the PDF does not need to be always being ready to deploy at short notice.

It does not even have a proper assault course ffs.

I would seriously doubt PDF infantry battalions being physically and psychologically ready to serve in ardous combat in their present form.

It doesn't have an assault course? You obviously haven't been down to the DFPES lately then.

The whole DF is hampered by a lack of funding and the fact that the Government is hell bent on holding us by the hand. It breaks my heart that we're treated in such a way but as a Private, I'm in no position to change it.

cherrypicker555

Poccington wrote: »

It doesn't have an assault course? You obviously haven't been down to the DFPES lately then.

The whole DF is hampered by a lack of funding and the fact that the Government is hell bent on holding us by the hand. It breaks my heart that we're treated in such a way but as a Private, I'm in no position to change it.

Dont get me wrong the Irish army has the potential to be right up their as a world class fighting force, the problem is worse then funding, its the anti NATO/anti military ethic in the republic which means the defence forces will never train or serve to their full potential, but remain as they are.

Poccington

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

Dont get me wrong the Irish army has the potential to be right up their as a world class fighting force, the problem is worse then funding, its the anti NATO/anti military ethic in the republic which means the defence forces will never train or serve to their full potential, but remain as they are.

There's talk of the Congo and Sierra Leone for us once Chad finishes up.... So hopefully, just hopefully the government is starting to put a bit more faith in our abilities and might stop holding our hands. Lord knows I'll more than likely be proven wrong though.

Steyr

Poccington wrote: »

Well if there was an invasion, the Yanks would be a bit late when they arrived to the fight.

Not really, id suspect a quick arrival from F-15E Strike Eagles of the 48FW from RAF Lakenheath USAFE Base in Suffolk ( United States Air Force Europe ) and throw in a few A-10's of the 52FW from Spangdahlem AB in Germany.


:-)

amen

If you were born and live in the Republic of Ireland you can never be a fighter pilot

not true. I believe you can join the RAF as a pilot and if selected fly fighters.

you could also try for american citizenship and apply to join the armed forces

diverdriver

not true. I believe you can join the RAF as a pilot and if selected fly fighters.

you could also try for american citizenship and apply to join the armed forces

No, sorry. The RAF stipulate British citizen since birth or holder of dual British/other nationality for all aircrew including pilots . They used to take Irish citizens with no British connection but even that had a residence requirment. They won't even accept your application. You can get a ground job, as an Irish citizen though.

As for trying for American citizenship, well you can try for citizenship of any country with an Air Force. Good luck with that.

What Irish people can't do is is become a fighter pilot without becoming a citizen of another country or be born in the UK even if it only was Derry or Armagh.

BrianD

cherrypicker555 wrote: »

Dont get me wrong the Irish army has the potential to be right up their as a world class fighting force, the problem is worse then funding, its the anti NATO/anti military ethic in the republic which means the defence forces will never train or serve to their full potential, but remain as they are.

You hit the nail on the head. FF as a party in Government have never invested in the Defence Forces. One reason put forward for this is that FF were always suspicious of the Defence Forces since Michael Collins and the Civil War.

It's interesting that in the past ten years that there has been a renewed interest by FF in the military - some investment in hardware, new "clearly army" uniforms and military parades at Easter. This may have been driven by ego of then Taoiseach and that our property based economy should become a world power!

I personally believe that the anti-NATO and the sole reason for Ireland being neutral in name (I believe that our neutrality is a farce, one of convenience and of no value) is that with the 'northern issue' outstanding that no Irish government would join in a military alliance that included Britain. Hence, we didn't join the allies to fight Nazism and we stood by when history repeated itself in the Balkans. At the same time as a "neutral" nation we transit 1000's of US troops through Shannon and extraordinary renditions on the grounds that it's good business.

amen

What Irish people can't do is is become a fighter pilot without becoming a citizen of another country or be born in the UK even if it only was Derry or Armagh.

you learn something new every day.

how come thought the accept irish ppl as offices in the Army/Naval service but won;t let them fly ? (During WWII a lot of RAF pilots were Irish)

cherrypicker555

diverdriver wrote: »

No, sorry. The RAF stipulate British citizen since birth or holder of dual British/other nationality for all aircrew including pilots . They used to take Irish citizens with no British connection but even that had a residence requirment. They won't even accept your application. You can get a ground job, as an Irish citizen though.

As for trying for American citizenship, well you can try for citizenship of any country with an Air Force. Good luck with that.

What Irish people can't do is is become a fighter pilot without becoming a citizen of another country or be born in the UK even if it only was Derry or Armagh.

You cant become an RAF pilot without joint or British nationality by birth, but you can become an RAF officer in other fields. But I would officially check as some sites say you can.


pilot
Age: 17.5–23
Pay: £28,500–£83,700
Gender: male or female
Rank: Officer
Minimum length of service: 12 years

Qualifications: 5 GCSEs/SCEs and 2 A-levels or 3 Highers or equivalent. GCSEs/SCEs at Grade C/3 minimum to include English language and maths

Nationality: citizen of the UK, the Commonwealth or the Republic of Ireland since birth

Im pretty sure ROI citzens can become BA army helicopter pilots.

meathstevie

Poccington wrote: »

Well if there was an invasion, the Yanks would be a bit late when they arrived to the fight.

As for your argument regarding Iraq/Georgia with their military spending and then the results of conflicts they were involved in. Anyone can spend lots of money on their military but if the training they recieve is ****e well then having gucci equipment is **** all use. A 3* Private in the DF is a well trained soldier by international standards, it just so happens that the DF suffers from a ridiculous lack of funding which limits it's overall capabilities quite considerably.

Why would you rely on the yanks ? Ireland primarily is an EU country and there's plenty of EU allies within less than an hour and a half of supersonic flight away from Ireland. The likes of The Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, France and the UK would immedeatly be involved in the unlikely event of an air attack on EU territory attacking the western edge of it's territory.

And if all that fails the US Navy alone has more in carrier groups floating about the Atlantic than all the above mentionend airforces together.

Poccington

meathstevie wrote: »

Why would you rely on the yanks ? Ireland primarily is an EU country and there's plenty of EU allies within less than an hour and a half of supersonic flight away from Ireland. The likes of The Netherlands, Belgium, Germany, France and the UK would immedeatly be involved in the unlikely event of an air attack on EU territory attacking the western edge of it's territory.

And if all that fails the US Navy alone has more in carrier groups floating about the Atlantic than all the above mentionend airforces together.

If you can show me where I said we would or should rely on the Yanks, I'll go into work tomorrow and eat my beret.

Steyr

From the RAF website:www.raf.mod.uk

Job description: Pilot fast-jet, multi-engine or rotary-wing aircraft

Pay after training: 33,050

Joining age: 17.5 – 23

Category: Officers

Usual service: 18 years or up to the age of 38

Open to: men or women
Similar civilian jobs:

Commercial airline pilot
Pilot trainer
Commercial helicopter pilot

Qualifications you need: 2 A-levels or 3 Highers or equivalent. 5 GCSEs/SCEs at Grade C/3 minimum or equivalent, including English language and maths

Qualifications you can gain: Degree or Masters degree

Nationality: British citizen since birth or holder of dual British/other nationality

Nationality and residency
Nationality
The nationality requirements for each job are given in each of the job files on this website.

To apply for any RAF job, you must be British, Commonwealth, Irish, British protected or dual national (British/other) at the time of application.

For security reasons, there are stricter nationality requirements for some jobs. For a few, you must have been a British citizen and UK resident since birth.

Residency
You must have lived in the UK for five years, three of which must be consecutive, before you apply to join.

In exceptional circumstances, there is a chance that if you don’t meet these requirements exactly, you could still be considered for service.

If you are unsure about your eligibility, please call the advice line on 0845 605 5555.

diverdriver

how come thought the accept irish ppl as offices in the Army/Naval service but won;t let them fly ? (During WWII a lot of RAF pilots were Irish)

That's a good question, amen. You can be an officer in the RAF but not aircrew! Why the difference? I suppose there must be one. Security can't just be the whole reason as many ground jobs are just as secret.

Yes, cherrypicker, you can be an Army Air Corps pilot. But they don't do fighters, sadly.

I know an ex Harrier pilot from Limerick, living back there now. He was featured on TV recently. He must be one of the last few non Northern Irish born, who got in before the rules changed back in the early eighties. The last Irish fighter pilot. Sad really! Particularly as it's very unlikely the Air Corps will ever see a jet fighter before they're all replaced by drones.

vulcan57

diverdriver wrote: »

That's a good question, amen. You can be an officer in the RAF but not aircrew! Why the difference? I suppose there must be one. Security can't just be the whole reason as many ground jobs are just as secret.

Maybe in the present climate, if anyone had "Alternative motives" they would rather they were'nt in one of their multi-million pound state of the art fighters.

GaryIrv93

Apologies for digging up an old thread for starters.

I can completely understand the fact that we're a neutral country with no sign of any likely enemies, aggressors, etc in the near future, however, given by our lack of heavy equipment for the Army, proper combat or transport aircraft for the Air Corps, and small Navy, we seem to base our defence forces on how likely we are to be involved in conflict. In that case we might as well get rid of car insurance for example - if I'm correct, car insurance is based not on how likely you are to crash, but on ''what if you do happen to crash''.

This should also apply to our defence - not on how likely we are to be involved in conflict, but on what if we do happen to be involved in conflict? Taking our defence forces up a notch for example, purchasing more armoured vehicles, tanks, AA defence, proper combat and transport aircraft, and more vessels would be completely for insurance. If something did come up, we wouldn't have the time to purchase more combat equipment. In this day and age we should be able to defend ourselves, without having to rely on other countries.

Morpheus

2 points:

1. We are not neutral and never have been a constitutionally neutral country.

2. You should maybe use the military forum under Soc to discuss this, lots of threads and individuals who are very interested in the subject can be found there.