Stephen Jones (The Sunday Times one) reassesses his views on O'Gara

anonymous_joe

Ok for the love of God can this not descend into a provincial slagging match?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/rugby_union/article5803958.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1

One or two organisations have invested a few pence in my ability as a rugby selector in the past, unworried by the fact that I once did not rate Shane Williams as far as I could throw him. If I am honest I think I can spot a player.

However, for a whole chunk of his career I did not rate Ronan O’Gara. Accordingly, news of this reached him and I don’t think it is breaking a confidence if I say that he let me know he didn’t rate my view that I didn’t rate him. If texts were fists. Ouch.

O’Gara wins his 90th cap for Ireland on Saturday at Croke Park. Considering that all the world’s greatest flankers have been trying to upset him for decades it is a tribute to longevity at the very least.

Consider also that he won most of those caps playing outside the drastically limited Peter Stringer, who would struggle to win a contract in the Guinness Premiership as a third-string back-up and who never took the pressure from O’Gara by actually varying his play. In that light O’Gara's achievement becomes all the better.

And, fascinatingly, there is a rumour raging round Irish rugby that the pair don’t actually like each other much or socialise. I am sure that can’t be true, can it?

Ireland have also been stunningly, outrageously fortunate that he has remained so free of injury. There has been total lack of credible fly-half contenders, David Humphreys apart, and even now, as O’Gara reaches 90 caps, the next fly half into the team in the event of O’Gara breaking his leg would be O’Gara playing with a broken leg.

My low rating was based on what I saw as an unambitious young player who lay as deep as Davy Jones’s locker and who often seemed to be happy to kick just enough penalty goals to ensure that the score for Munster or Ireland was one point more than the opposition. I have seen games where his defence was poor, where he could have expanded and did not, or failed to kill off a game and then found his team beaten. I also felt that when he did try to run the ball he looked thoroughly uncomfortable.

That was then. These days I find him a masterly operator. There is no shortage of outstanding fly halves around but I would take him on the Lions tour. His range of kicks is vast and, in a sense, old-fashioned. So few fly halves these days can drop kicks on the head of a shaky defender to land at the same time as the chasers, even long punting is a lost art that he retains. He is also a man you would back for that knee-knocking late place kick to win. Last season against Wasps at Thomond Park it was as if he had the match on a length of string, so uncanny was his anticipation.

He is also playing far flatter and I recall with delight the way he orchestrated a display of attacking by the Irish backs against Australia two seasons ago that has rarely been equalled. He still makes errors but his experience and well of self-belief seem to shrug them off where once they haunted him.

So who was right? O’Gara himself would admit that he has changed as a player and become a more complete fly half. Perhaps he might admit that in the old days some of my criticism rang true.

If so, then I’d have to hold my hands up, too. Well, maybe only one. Naturally to be wrong about anything is not a sensation I have often felt but let’s say that, between gritted teeth and conceding ground against a body of evidence, I acclaim the 90th cap of our Ronan. I confidently expect him to raise his bat to the pavilion after reaching his ton and let us say that I am expecting him to play rugby of the very highest class on Croke Park on Saturday.

Interesting to see that one of Ireland's most fervent critics has come out with such a volte face.

Suddenly we have calls for him to marshall teh Lions backline.

handsomecake

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Ok for the love of God can this not descend into a provincial slagging match?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/rugby_union/article5803958.ece?token=null&offset=0&page=1



Interesting to see that one of Ireland's most fervent critics has come out with such a volte face.

Suddenly we have calls for him to marshall teh Lions backline.

i disagree with stephen jones.he was rubbish then and is still rubbish now

Serenity Now!

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Interesting to see that one of Ireland's most fervent critics has come out with such a volte face

Well, its Stephen Jones. When I asked him before why he had such a hard-on for Ireland and the SH nations he just said "because you love it".

Dismiss this article and file it with the rest of the trash in your recycle bin.

ScholesyIsGod

Stephen Jones is an ape his comments about Stringer are a complete joke. I remember coming home on the ferry after last seasons Heineken Cup Final reading his piece cutting Munster to pieces just after we'd won a second European Cup in 3 years. He's just a bitter man.

anonymous_joe

Serenity Now! wrote: »

Well, its Stephen Jones. When I asked him before why he had such a hard-on for Ireland and the SH nations he just said "because you love it".

Dismiss this article and file it with the rest of the trash in your recycle bin.

Aye, he's very much like that. Not a fan.

Just intrigued by his change of tune.

ScholesyIsGod wrote: »

Stephen Jones is an ape his comments about Stringer are a complete joke. I remember coming home on the ferry after last seasons Heineken Cup Final reading his piece cutting Munster to pieces just after we'd won a second European Cup in 3 years. He's just a bitter man.

He#s good at finding things to criticise alright.

premierstone

anonymous_joe wrote: »

Just intrigued by his change of tune.

He's just like Dunphy in that respect he loves to go against the grain, when the majority were praising ROG he bashed him and vice-versa its an attempt at senationalist journalism and an attempt that fails miserably tbh.

And agree with Scholsey the comments about Stringer are just OTT and unnesseccary I think the only person who looks bad out of this article is Stephen Jones.

twinytwo

handsomecake wrote: »

i disagree with stephen jones.he was rubbish then and is still rubbish now

But he is better than you so maybe we a lucky:rolleyes:

thehighground

He is just keeping himself in a job: Praise O'Gara - annoy everyone except Munster supporters, and then to make sure he annoys Munster supporters have a dig at Peter Stringer. That should keep him in a job for a while - because his rugby analysis won't.

What I find far more offensive is that SJ actually bought a brick in the Thomond Walk.

btw, anyone notice that Denis Hickie was defending ROG in his blog the other day.

Dennis and Rog are good friends,im also sure Rog,Bod,Darcy and Horgan get on extremely well and would socialise outside rugby.

Some of the stuff people were crapping on about at the world cup and even now about players hating each other is so stupid.

sm.org

thehighground wrote: »

He is just keeping himself in a job: Praise O'Gara - annoy everyone except Munster supporters, and then to make sure he annoys Munster supporters have a dig at Peter Stringer. That should keep him in a job for a while - because his rugby analysis won't.

What I find far more offensive is that SJ actually bought a brick in the Thomond Walk.

btw, anyone notice that Denis Hickie was defending ROG in his blog the other day.

I have to agree he's a gutter press journalist at best. Its just insult as many people as possible all the time.

I've never actually read any decent analysis by him. He cant read a game, never make's a decent prediction and only ever tips England for glory.

How he writes for The Times is beyond me.

twinytwo

sm.org wrote: »

I have to agree he's a gutter press journalist at best. Its just insult as many people as possible all the time.

I've never actually read any decent analysis by him. He cant read a game, never make's a decent prediction and only ever tips England for glory.

How he writes for The Times is beyond me.

Maybe there was a lot of under the table action going

thehighground

Everleigh Clever Zipper wrote: »

Dennis and Rog are good friends,im also sure Rog,Bod,Darcy and Horgan get on extremely well and would socialise outside rugby.

Some of the stuff people were crapping on about at the world cup and even now about players hating each other is so stupid.

According to ROG's biography, that would be true. He is very good friends with BOD & Mal in particular. (He was also actually very friendly with David Humphreys as well as they spent a lot of time together working with the same kicking coach )

There were a few claims here that ROG is over-rated and doesn't get criticised by the media. If that is true, why is Dennis defending him then?

Maybe Hickie reads boards

Erin Go Brath

Piss poor analysis from Jones. That he didnt rate Shane Williams says it all. The Stringer/Rog combination worked very well and they have had a great understanding at Munster for a number of years. That article was so all over the place that he makes George Hook seem coherent. :eek:

Noopti

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Piss poor analysis from Jones. That he didnt rate Shane Williams says it all. The Stringer/Rog combination worked very well and they have had a great understanding at Munster for a number of years. That article was so all over the place that he makes George Hook seem coherent. :eek:

In all fairness Shane Williams has improved a lot in the last few years. So it is quite possible for someone to not have rated him a few years back.

As for his comments on Stringer, well they are complete piss to be honest. Yes, he has limited skills but what he does do, he does very very well and I can imagine a lot of GP sides wanting someone with his experience in their side.

myflipflops

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Piss poor analysis from Jones. That he didnt rate Shane Williams says it all. The Stringer/Rog combination worked very well and they have had a great understanding at Munster for a number of years. That article was so all over the place that he makes George Hook seem coherent. :eek:

Not many poeple rated Williams up to a couple of years ago, including Welsh coaches who dropped him. The way he got tossed about by the AB's for the Lions in 2005 backed up a lot of those views too. It was difficult to be outstandingly poor in red on that trip but he managed it.

He has to be the most improved player in world rugby.

As for Stephen jones, this is a guy who wrote a full page piece in the Sunday Times a few years ago in which he described Gavin Henson as 'comfortably the best rugby player in Europe'. This was at the time that Henson was on the fringes of the Welsh squad (around the time he came of the bench for Wales in Landsdowne to play 10 and had a mare). The guy is a sensationalist, plain and simple.

anonymous_joe

thehighground wrote: »

He is just keeping himself in a job: Praise O'Gara - annoy everyone except Munster supporters, and then to make sure he annoys Munster supporters have a dig at Peter Stringer. That should keep him in a job for a while - because his rugby analysis won't.

What I find far more offensive is that SJ actually bought a brick in the Thomond Walk.

btw, anyone notice that Denis Hickie was defending ROG in his blog the other day.

Denis Hickie has a blog!?

He's good at píssing us off, I'll give him that.

Erin Go Brath wrote: »

Piss poor analysis from Jones. That he didnt rate Shane Williams says it all. The Stringer/Rog combination worked very well and they have had a great understanding at Munster for a number of years. That article was so all over the place that he makes George Hook seem coherent. :eek:

In fairness no-one rated Williams. He was a nobody up until the last couple of seasons. He almost retired after all.

twinytwo

pwhite587 wrote: »

he described Gavin Henson as 'comfortably the best rugby player in Europe'. .

I lol'd

Crash

Jesus lads, I think I need to start editing the times, they've got some trolls in the pack there

thehighground

thehighground wrote: »

There were a few claims here that ROG is over-rated and doesn't get criticised by the media. If that is true, why is Dennis defending him then?

That was me.

As a wild guess I would imagine Dennis is defending him because they are mates and used to play together.

myflipflops

Whatever my opinion of O'Gara as a player, would it not be true to state that he is the most analsyed and written about player in irish rugby? It's possible that he's generated more newsprint than anybody else in Irish rugby history. Not just about his on field games either, this is a guy who had serious personal allegationa (whether they are true or not) made against him in a major French newspaper during the World Cup.

To state that he doesn't get criticised enough is an untruth in my opinion - never has a player more often been at the receiving end of both wild hyperbole or unust, over the top criticism as O'Gara.

Personally i fall between the two arguements - he isn't a world class operator in the mould of Carter or Hernandez but neither is he a poor rugby player. He operates as the one of the best of the second tier international out halves while retaining the ability, on the right occasion, of producing performances out of the top drawer.

toomevara

I'm gonna get all biblical on y'all and quote the good book, 'a man cannot be a prophet in his own land' Amen brothers, never a truer word said in respect of ROG...one of the greatest rugby players this country has ever produced....and if lord forbid, the guy gets injured, what he brings to the Irish team would quickly become glaringly evident by its absence,...how about the little period of play in the Italian game when he was in the bin?. Ireland were suddenly utterly one dimensional and bereft of ideas..The guy's an all-time great and only in Ireland would he be vilified almost entirely on the basis of daft and baseless tribalism....

By the way, he's 10 points short of Wilkos all time 6n point scoring record, so heres hoping thats another marker this truly exceptional player lays down this weekend.

G'wan ROG ya good thing!!

Junior

Again - Denis Hickie has a blog ? Anyone got a link ?

NotWormBoy

Here

thehighground

Junior wrote: »

Again - Denis Hickie has a blog ? Anyone got a link ?

Denis & Shane Byrne have blogs with the Irish Times:

Denis:
http://blog.ireland.com/n/blogs/blog.aspx?nav=main&webtag=itb_DenisHickie&entry=13

Shane:

http://blog.ireland.com/n/blogs/blog.aspx?webtag=itb_shanebyrne

jdivision

I seem to remember Stephen Jones naming O'Gara as second best outhalf in the world behind Carter two or three years ago. So what's probably happened is he thought he was poor, changed his mind, changed his mind back and is now changing it again. Kevin Myers anyone?

daveirl

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daveirl

daveirl wrote: »

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A bit like Rog then

daveirl

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Im a Stringer fan myself,if I was coach hed be starting.

Crash

jdivision wrote: »

Kevin Myers anyone?

I blame it on the immigants. even when it was the bears i knew it was the immagants.

...or ROG. Whatever.

toomevara

Crash wrote: »

I blame it on the immigants. even when it was the bears i knew it was the immagants.

...or ROG. Whatever.

Oh no Crash, it was when the 16th Irish and 36th Ulster division failed to take their final objective on the first day of the second battle of the Somme. That my friend, that, was when the rot set in !......
Kevin 'The Mad Major' Myers.

buck65

I would reckon that most of the O Gara critics are from the blue camp?

Otacon

buck65 wrote: »

I would reckon that most of the O Gara critics are from the blue camp?

/sigh

I am a critic of ROG and I'm a firm Munster fan. I expect a lot of those I follow.

toomevara

buck65 wrote: »

I would reckon that most of the O Gara critics are from the blue camp?

ohferfeckssakes!!!!.....*opens cyanide vial. inhales lustily*

Lame_leg

Has anybody read this rubbish?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/rugby_union/article5908569.ece

And this unnecessary dig on John Hayes:-

John Hayes, the prop, also beat some record or other – p e r h a p s a n e w m a r k f o r standing at the side of rucks with a hand in the air.

themont85

Bowe tackled Evans, he's right. O'Driscoll tackled Godman.

phog

Lame_leg wrote: »

Has anybody read this rubbish?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/rugby_union/article5908569.ece

One of the highlights of the match was Brian O'Driscolls tackle, and Stephen Jones can't even get that right.



And this unnecessary dig on John Hayes:-

Tommy Bowe made the in initial tackle and O'Driscoll took out Godman in the follow up, great covering by both players but O'D seemed to get most of the praise from the commentators, so this might have led to your confusion.