Commuting outside Ireland

Cookie_Monster

Just came back from a weekend in Frankfurt & Stuggart with a friend who lives there. He has no car but we were able to go everywhere on public transport, it was just brilliant. Trains, underground, busses and intercity all integrated, zonal fares and massive frequency as well as being completly barrier free. The underground even goes up into the mountains connecting to popular walking routes:) Simple mapping shows all routes together and info boards give time to next 4-10 busses/trains

What a difference to here:(

The only two things I'd say about it, as it's zonal a one way short journey can work out quite expensive and you're fooked if you're in a wheelchair as there is simply no way of making the gaps & height from train to platform

kravmaga

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Just came back from a weekend in Frankfurt & Stuggart with a friend who lives there. He has no car but we were able to go everywhere on public transport, it was just brilliant. Trains, underground, busses and intercity all integrated, zonal fares and massive frequency as well as being completly barrier free. The underground even goes up into the mountains connecting to popular walking routes:) Simple mapping shows all routes together and info boards give time to next 4-10 busses/trains

What a difference to here:(

The only two things I'd say about it, as it's zonal a one way short journey can work out quite expensive and you're fooked if you're in a wheelchair as there is simply no way of making the gaps & height from train to platform

You cannot really compare the large cities of Frankfurt and Stuttgart to Dublin in fairness.

Frankfurt urban area has a population of 2.6 million people and the greater metro region has 5.26 million.

Stuttgart urban area has a population of 600,000 people and the greater metro region of 2.7 million.

Dublin is a village in comparasion

They have higher density living, so they have proper transport planning going back to the 1950's & 1960's when the city planners looked at districts for population growth.

We dont have forward thinking in Dublin IRELAND regarding proper intergrated transport planning for the future.

Look at Dublin which relies on the car car car for people to get to work from the isolated husing estates built in the Leinster area during the boom.

The only positive item recently was Irish Rail looking to survey the posibility of re-opening the Navan rail line.

Cookie_Monster

blueeyedboy wrote: »

You cannot really compare the large cities of Frankfurt and Stuttgart to Dublin in fairness.

Stuttgart urban area has a population of 600,000 people and the greater metro region of 2.7 million.

That's pretty similar to Dublin and surrounding areas in fairness, though more in the region...

wikipedia wrote:

The population of the administrative area controlled by the City Council was 505,739 at the census of 2006. At the same census, the County Dublin population was 1,186,159, and that of the Greater Dublin Area 1,661,185. The city's population is expanding rapidly, and it is estimated by the CSO that it will reach 2.1 million by 2021. Today, approximately 40% of the population of the Republic of Ireland live within a 100 km (62 mi) radius of the city centre

I'm not trying to compare them directly but the difference is staggering. From the population stats alone Dublin should have at least half of what Stuttgart has in the way of tram and underground/regional rail.

One can dream i suppose:rolleyes:

markpb

Of course you can compare them! The size of the city affects the cost of the service and how frequent it can be but it doesn't affect ticketing, fare systems, timetables, reliability, speed, the level of information available from the operator or a whole host of other problems that plague Dublin.

munchkin_utd

The one thing though to be learned is that the transport in Germany is a coherent system with busses trams and rail all organised to complement each other and timetabled as a system with connection planned in.

In Ireland theres no transport "system"
There's a myriad of city bus routes (ran by CIE and private operators )
There's intercity bus routes (ran by CIE and private operators )
There's regional bus routes (ran by CIE and private operators )
There's a number of train routes
There's 2 tram routes.

No system.

All operating like Ryanair, point to point.

Woe betide anyone that actually needs a change of route to get from A to B with public transport in Ireland.

Rawr

blueeyedboy wrote: »

You cannot really compare the large cities of Frankfurt and Stuttgart to Dublin in fairness.

Frankfurt urban area has a population of 2.6 million people and the greater metro region has 5.26 million.

Stuttgart urban area has a population of 600,000 people and the greater metro region of 2.7 million.

Dublin is a village in comparasion

In comparison to those two cities perhaps. However, I live in Oslo, where the city's population is near half of what Dublin's is, and yet it has all of what Cookie listed. The population is even spread out across county borders, very like the GDA.

The difference is very straightforward design and implementation. The city's metro, trams, busses (both inner-city and greater area), and trains meet at various points across the city, making transfer between modes a simple affair.
Attached to the central train station, is the Main Bus-Station, beneath them is the Metro and running along side them are most of the tram routes.

Most metro, train, bus and tram routes run from suburb to suburb via the city-centre, with very few routes terminating in the centre itself. This is complemented with various orbital routes.

What's more, there's none of this 'Lana Tram' nonsense. Buses and Trams share mostly the same lanes and often the same stops.

And of course, the main difference as you will have already guessed, all modes share integrated ticketing.

Size ain't everything! Dublin being smaller to Frankfurt is no reason why the transport network can't work *smarter*

delta_bravo

markpb wrote: »

Of course you can compare them! The size of the city affects the cost of the service and how frequent it can be but it doesn't affect ticketing, fare systems, timetables, reliability, speed, the level of information available from the operator or a whole host of other problems that plague Dublin.

You cant compare them really: Frankfurt was a sandbox after WWII, completely obliterated so town planners had free rein and not much cost limits to design an effective transport system. Stuttgart was probably the same. Dublin (fortunately) has had no such freedom in transport planning.

Terrontress

delta_bravo wrote: »

You cant compare them really: Frankfurt was a sandbox after WWII, completely obliterated so town planners had free rein and not much cost limits to design an effective transport system. Stuttgart was probably the same. Dublin (fortunately) has had no such freedom in transport planning.

I'm sick of not being able to compare Dublin to anywhere successful. It's always either too small or too big to be compared to a continental city. Now this. It hasn't been blown up enough. I have been to Heidelberg and Wiesbaden in Germany, neither of which sustained any bombing in WWII yet have great functioning multi-modal public transport systems with central interchanges and integrated ticketing.

Public transport in Dublin is less than it should be for a city its size which has had its resources since the dawn of time, not just in the past 20 years.

Victor

One advantage both sities have is open street grids, not Dublin's cul-de-sacs

On the point of sandboxes - surely it was easier to build county Dublin which was greenfields and simple land ownership than congested city centres with myriad land ownership? Thisng like medium density, open street grids and building according to the needs of the residents as opposed to the way hedges were laid out 400 years ago is the way to go.

Both cities also have a single large train station - which is a central feature to the city. Dublin could have this, but ....

antoinolachtnai

The thing is change. You have to change things in order to make things better.

The system we have is largely the same system as what we had in the first half of the last century, with a few bolt-ons and extensions.

The good news is that we actually have plenty of resources available in the field. We have to change the way we use them if we want to get a service that's a bit like what you get on the continent.

Glasgow is a city that is oftent mentioned on here that has some similarities to Dublin in practice that seems to have made a go of its public transport. You will certainly find plenty of European cities that are around the same size as Dublin.

You won't find many cities that are as spread out. That's just a problem we have to figure out our own solution to. But it is certainly soluble.

But there has to be significant qualitative change in order to have a better service. Throwing more money at what we have will not work.

Public transport really has to reinvent itself to fit with the new realities.

markpb

delta_bravo wrote: »

You cant compare them really: Frankfurt was a sandbox after WWII, completely obliterated so town planners had free rein and not much cost limits to design an effective transport system. Stuttgart was probably the same. Dublin (fortunately) has had no such freedom in transport planning.

Sorry but that's just excuses and rubbish. How does WW2 affect our ticketing system? Does it explain why DB have a stage system, Luas has a zone system and no-one knows what IR use? Does it explain why buses are stuck so badly in traffic? Does it explain why the Green line was built to interconnect with nothing? Does it explain why we still don't have integrated ticketed after millions of euro has been spent?

It doesn't. We're crap at public transport because most people don't care, elect people who are crap at public transport and then people like you make excuses and say it's because we weren't flattened during WW2.

KC61

markpb wrote: »

Sorry but that's just excuses and rubbish. How does WW2 affect our ticketing system? Does it explain why DB have a stage system, Luas has a zone system and no-one knows what IR use? Does it explain why buses are stuck so badly in traffic? Does it explain why the Green line was built to interconnect with nothing? Does it explain why we still don't have integrated ticketed after millions of euro has been spent?

It doesn't. We're crap at public transport because most people don't care, elect people who are crap at public transport and then people like you make excuses and say it's because we weren't flattened during WW2.

I have to disagree with the media and people on Boards who say that we have no integrated ticketing. There are a multitude of tickets available that integrate between modes of travel, namely:

Dublin Area:
Dublin Bus Only - Travel 90 (Bus to bus within 90 minutes)
Dublin Bus Only - 1 day/3 day/5 day/7 day/30 day/Annual
Dublin Bus/Irish Rail - 1 day/3 day/7 day/30 day/Annual
Dublin Bus/LUAS - 1 day/7 day/30 day/Annual
Dublin Bus/Irish Rail/LUAS - Annual
Dublin Bus/Irish Rail/Bus Eireann - 7 Day (Medium/Long/Giant Hop)
Irish Rail Only - 1 day/3 day/7 day/30 day/Annual
Irish Rail /LUAS - 7 day/30 day/Annual
Irish Rail/Airlink - Single Journey
Irish Rail/DART Feeder Bus - Single Journey
LUAS Only - 1 day/7 day/30 day

Limerick/Galway/Waterford:
Bus Eireann City Services: 1 day/7 day/30 day

Cork:
Bus Eireann City Services: 1 day/7 day/30 day
Bus Eireann City/Suburban Services:1 day/7 day/30 day
Bus Eireann City/Suburban Services/Irish Rail Commuter - 7 day/30 day

National:
Irish Rail/Dublin Bus - Annual
Irish Rail/Bus Eireann - Annual
Irish Rail/Bus Eireann/Dublin Bus - Annual

There are also period passes for Bus Eireann and Irish Rail for specific journeys in 7 day/30 day and Annual formats, which can be tied up with Dublin Bus as well.

What is not present is a smartcard that allows the user to maintain a purse to purchase single trip tickets across the various modes of transport. This is what the media keep referring to as "integrated ticketing". Nor are there tickets available between the independent operators in the Dublin Area (URbus/Dualway/Swords Express) and the CIE Group or LUAS.

I do wonder how many journeys that such a "purse" would cover in the overall scheme of things - most regular passengers would have one of the tickets above. The obvious one missing is integration between the three independent operators in Dublin and CIE/LUAS, but again in the overall picture these are relatively minor.

The period passes above cover the majority of potential journeys already, yet people are fixated with the idea of a smartcard, which may at the end of the day prove more expensive than the existing options!!!

markpb

KC61 wrote: »

I have to disagree with the media and people on Boards who say that we have no integrated ticketing. There are a multitude of tickets available that integrate between modes of travel.

You're right of course. What I should have said is that we have limited integrated ticketing which is confusing, inflexible and expensive.
Compare this to Los Angeles which is hardly the bastion of public transport and, incidentally, wasn't destroyed during WW2.

For regular commuters, the monthly transit pass covers *all* public buses, trains, trams, BRTs and night buses in LA. There is no equivalent in Dublin, where if you opt for more than a single mode of transport, you pay a premium.

For semi-regular travellers, they have a smartcard which holds daily, weekly and monthly cards as well as implementing purse functionality. They are working on integrating this with bus companies in other cities and, in some cases, other counties such as Orange County.

For irregular passengers, any tram or train station can issue transfer tickets to the bus, tickets are valid on all other trams and trains and buses can issue transfer tickets to other bus routes. One trip - one ticket. We have, with the exception of the incredibly poor Dart feeder buses, no equivalent in Dublin.

Other cities around the world are the same - they *get* ticketing. We don't.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

I have to disagree with the media and people on Boards who say that we have no integrated ticketing. There are a multitude of tickets available that integrate between modes of travel, namely:

Thats all well and good but can I get a ticket that will:

1) Get a local bus to the Dart station
2) Dart to Connolly
3) Luas to Heuston
4) Train to X (say Galway)
5) Use of Galway buss to hotel/whatever

No!

Can I even get integrated tickets for any part of that journey that are single use, hence cheaper, and not daily/weekly/monthly? Not that I am aware of.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Thats all well and good but can I get a ticket that will:

1) Get a local bus to the Dart station
2) Dart to Connolly
3) Luas to Heuston
4) Train to X (say Galway)
5) Use of Galway buss to hotel/whatever

No!

Can I even get integrated tickets for any part of that journey that are single use, hence cheaper, and not daily/weekly/monthly? Not that I am aware of.

No - But you can get a single/return ticket for portions 2 to 4.

I don't know of many countries where you can get a national ticket covering all of 1 to 5 above. Yes, there are some (Netherlands/Switzerland spring to mind), but by and large most individual towns/cities tend to have their own tickets.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

I don't know of many countries where you can get a national ticket covering all of 1 to 5 above. Yes, there are some (Netherlands/Switzerland spring to mind), but by and large most individual towns/cities tend to have their own tickets.

Germany:D

Bought the inter city tickets and can get an add on while booking that allows travel within the city zones at either end. A standard ticket for city zones is vaild on all form of transport within the zone too, bus, tram, S-Bahn (Dart-esque/commuter), and U-bahn (underground/suburban)

GeeNorm

I've worked in Chicago, Munich, Sydney and Shanghai. All had class transport systems to put Dublin to shame.
However, after roughly a week in each place I realised how expensive it was to use and bought a bike/car (or walked) instead.
I have a car and a bike in Dublin and I'm happy with our current (car based) system as public transport would be at least as expensive (IMO) and less flexible.

KC61

markpb wrote: »

You're right of course. What I should have said is that we have limited integrated ticketing which is confusing, inflexible and expensive.
Compare this to Los Angeles which is hardly the bastion of public transport and, incidentally, wasn't destroyed during WW2.

For regular commuters, the monthly transit pass covers *all* public buses, trains, trams, BRTs and night buses in LA. There is no equivalent in Dublin, where if you opt for more than a single mode of transport, you pay a premium.

For semi-regular travellers, they have a smartcard which holds daily, weekly and monthly cards as well as implementing purse functionality. They are working on integrating this with bus companies in other cities and, in some cases, other counties such as Orange County.

For irregular passengers, any tram or train station can issue transfer tickets to the bus, tickets are valid on all other trams and trains and buses can issue transfer tickets to other bus routes. One trip - one ticket. We have, with the exception of the incredibly poor Dart feeder buses, no equivalent in Dublin.

Other cities around the world are the same - they *get* ticketing. We don't.

Not quite true Mark, there is an Annual pass covering Dublin Bus/Rail/LUAS, which is as close as you can get to everything!

I just wonder how many people need a regular period pass covering all three modes? The typical traveller will use one or two, but not three I would suggest.

With the buses, there is the travel 90 ticket that does allow bus to bus on one ticket. I agree that there is the lack of single tickets across modes, but I wonder how many people will be making such trips without a return journey? In the latter case, a period pass would generally be cheaper.

Dublin does differ from other cities in that the rail and tram networks are significantly smaller, and the bus is the predominant form of transport. Therefore, it tends to be possible to make the majority of trips by bus, which means that the Travel 90 and period passes are usually cheaper than buying single tickets where multiple journeys are involved.

I'm certainly not saying that a purse isn't necessary, but what I am saying is that the argument is put forward by the media that there is no integrated ticketing, when patently there is a significant amount as listed above.

antoinolachtnai

There is no doubt that we have loads of types of tickets at the moment.

What we need to do is not add more types of tickets, but rather simplify what we have and have fewer.

Simplicity, clarity, coherence is what we need to strive for.

The administrative overhead on selling and issuing these tickets is actually pretty big. If you could get rid of the whole lot and just have a single smartcard with a purse, with a system of caps, that would be a lot easier to understand and use.

It's not really about dealing with existing journeys, it's really about opening up possibilities for new types of journeys which aren't that practical at the moment. Also, changing the situation so that cash is no longer the lowest common denominator of the transport system can bring enormous benefits.

KC61

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

There is no doubt that we have loads of types of tickets at the moment.

What we need to do is not add more types of tickets, but rather simplify what we have and have fewer.

Simplicity, clarity, coherence is what we need to strive for.

The administrative overhead on selling and issuing these tickets is actually pretty big. If you could get rid of the whole lot and just have a single smartcard with a purse, with a system of caps, that would be a lot easier to understand and use.

It's not really about dealing with existing journeys, it's really about opening up possibilities for new types of journeys which aren't that practical at the moment. Also, changing the situation so that cash is no longer the lowest common denominator of the transport system can bring enormous benefits.

Absolutely, but I remain to be convinced that our politicians are prepared to make that final step - are they prepared to raise cash prices significantly to favour the use of a smartcard?

Or are smartcard fares going to be lower than existing cash fares?

Really the point that I am trying to make is that there are very few trips that would require switching between three modes of transport. Most require one or two, and for that type of journey there are (in the vast majority of cases) period passes from 1 day to annual that cover the trip.

I accept the lack of integration with the three bus/coach private operators, but it is fair to say the numbers of journeys involved is limited in the overall picture.

I just wonder how many of the single multi-mode journeys are made given the predominance of the bus service as the principal transport provider?

Taking Cookie Monster's example above, while I don't dispute what he's saying regarding Germany, it is possible to get a train ticket from any DART station with a LUAS/90 add on to any rail station in the country.

Most regular journeys are covered by existing tickets. It's the non-regular passengers that are not covered, and I still wonder how many of them will use public transport even when a smartcard is available.

markpb

KC61 wrote: »

Not quite true Mark, there is an Annual pass covering Dublin Bus/Rail/LUAS, which is as close as you can get to everything!

If this ticket exists, no-one has told Dublin Bus[/quote] who think you can only pair modes of transport. And again, unlike some other cities you have to pay extra for the privilege of using more than one mode of transport.

With the buses, there is the travel 90 ticket that does allow bus to bus on one ticket.

That ticket cannot be bought singly, cannot be bought on the bus and cannot be used on other modes of transport. So you must plan your journey in advance, especially if you don't start near a DB-ticket shop. Then you can only use the bus, even if would be faster or more reliable to complete your journey by train or tram. The ticket system is making the journey plan for the passenger instead of allowing them to make the decision.

Dublin does differ from other cities in that the rail and tram networks are significantly smaller, and the bus is the predominant form of transport. Therefore, it tends to be possible to make the majority of trips by bus, which means that the Travel 90 and period passes are usually cheaper than buying single tickets where multiple journeys are involved.

Agreed but this isn't a good thing. Just because DB goes everywhere doesn't mean passengers should be forced to go everywhere with DB.

KC61

markpb wrote: »

If this ticket exists, no-one has told Dublin Bus who think you can only pair modes of transport. And again, unlike some other cities you have to pay extra for the privilege of using more than one mode of transport.

That ticket cannot be bought singly, cannot be bought on the bus and cannot be used on other modes of transport. So you must plan your journey in advance, especially if you don't start near a DB-ticket shop. Then you can only use the bus, even if would be faster or more reliable to complete your journey by train or tram. The ticket system is making the journey plan for the passenger instead of allowing them to make the decision.

Agreed but this isn't a good thing. Just because DB goes everywhere doesn't mean passengers should be forced to go everywhere with DB.

The Annual Irish Rail/LUAS/Dublin Bus ticket is advertised at http://www.taxsaver.ie/ie/tickets.asp

I think that you are missing my point. What I am saying is that when you read articles on this topic, you would form the opinion that the majority of journeys that people take on public transport in Dublin are not covered by the existing range of prepaid tickets. That is patently not the case.

I am not saying that everyone should be forced to use DB, what I am saying is that for most regular journeys and a significant number of irregular journeys there is already a ticket available. I would suggest that given the design of the rail/luas networks and the bus network, most multi-journeys in Dublin are bus to bus and not bus-rail or bus-luas or all three.

How difficult is it to go to a shop to buy a Travel 90 card? Most people are relatively near one, and the cards are valid 18 months which should cover most people's trips. Many European cities require you to buy tickets in advance from a "Tabac" or similar rather than on-bus, so I don't see that as being the major issue here.

Again, how many single direction multi-mode journeys are made? I am certainly not saying that it does need to be addressed, but I am making the point that there is an extensive range of tickets available to cover the vast majority of journeys, which you would not think is the case reading the media.

Cookie_Monster

To tie in to the other thread on 2 easy tickets.

Dublin bus cannot even offer tickets for shorter journeys or value for multiple one way journeys in a week, never mind properly integrated ticketing.

KC61

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

To tie in to the other thread on 2 easy tickets.

Dublin bus cannot even offer tickets for shorter journeys or value for multiple one way journeys in a week, never mind properly integrated ticketing.

The Travel 90 card would cover the second point for a bus-to-bus journey - given it's valid for 18 months I would imagine most people would use it up in that period.

The point I am making is that yes there is a need for a smartcard purse, but that the vast majority of existing multiple journeys are catered for by the existing range of tickets, which the media cannot get their head round.

antoinolachtnai

KC61 wrote: »

Absolutely, but I remain to be convinced that our politicians are prepared to make that final step - are they prepared to raise cash prices significantly to favour the use of a smartcard?

No, they will not do it until they feel that the smartcard system actually works, that every voter knows about it and that they like using it. They would be mad to do otherwise.

I accept the lack of integration with the three bus/coach private operators, but it is fair to say the numbers of journeys involved is limited in the overall picture.

To be honest, this is a very small issue, you are very correct. It is certainly not the determining factor for anything.

Having integration between the four state operators is much more important (and potentially more difficult).

I just wonder how many of the single multi-mode journeys are made given the predominance of the bus service as the principal transport provider?

Not that many, but there should be more. This isn't just about ticket integration, it's about transport information. There is still no definitive source or map of all the public transport routes in Dublin.

Anyway, the numbers aren't the point. The point is that the ticketing should be simple, clear and coherent, and it's not.

Taking Cookie Monster's example above, while I don't dispute what he's saying regarding Germany, it is possible to get a train ticket from any DART station with a LUAS/90 add on to any rail station in the country.

Most regular journeys are covered by existing tickets. It's the non-regular passengers that are not covered, and I still wonder how many of them will use public transport even when a smartcard is available.

but that won't get you onto the buses, particularly Dublin Bus which is the main transport system in the city.

And again, the point isn't whether particular individual products are or aren't available, it's that the system just isn't coherent.

KC61

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Not that many, but there should be more. This isn't just about ticket integration, it's about transport information. There is still no definitive source or map of all the public transport routes in Dublin.

That's a different issue altogether.

There is actually a Dublin Bus full Network Map (issued in January 2008) that also shows the DART, Suburban rail and LUAS. It is (granted) not in schematic form, but it does show the entire bus and rail network in the Dublin area (with the exception of the three private operators), and is a very useful publication.

I would like to think that what you're looking for (a schematic map and a comprehensive guide to tickets) is something that the DTA will deliver. As far as I know DB are working towards a schematic map later this year.

However, we have moved by virtue of your posts to a point of recognising that there are the tickets available for most journeys but many people don't realise it. And that is I think a serious problem, as the media and many politicians seem to think that there are no integrated products available when in fact there are!!

markpb

KC61 wrote: »

However, we have moved by virtue of your posts to a point of recognising that there are the tickets available for most journeys but many people don't realise it. And that is I think a serious problem, as the media and many politicians seem to think that there are no integrated products available when in fact there are!!

I don't think that's true. There are tickets for people who are willing to pay a premium, plan in advance and limit themselves to making the trip that the ticket allows them. It's impossible to make a single trip from from Santry to Blanchardstown without either planning in advance and buying a book of Travel90 tickets (which might involve travelling to some place that sells those tickets) or paying cash for the bus and cash for the second bus or the train. That's not integrated.

If you make that journey regularly, (apart from getting your head tested) you would need to buy a weekly/monthly bus ticket and waste time travelling all the way into the city centre and back or you could pay a premium and buy a monthly bus & rail ticket. And if you ever want to get to Sandyford or Tallaght, you have the choice of using the slower bus service or paying again, in cash, for the Luas. Again, that's not integrated.

In other cities you could buy a single use ticket which would be valid on the bus and train. If you make the journey regularly, your monthly ticket would also allow you to travel on the Luas. That's integration.

Cookie_Monster

KC61 wrote: »

The Travel 90 card would cover the second point for a bus-to-bus journey

Not if it 8 hours later it won't:rolleyes:

Cookie_Monster

The real solution here as I see it would be to have ONE transport operator, i.e. bring back CIE as the body that operates trains/busses/trams. All the same branding, all the same zonal fare structure and so forth.

Unfortunitly this will never happen here because the government is useless and so overly concerned with compitition and the unions would do everything in their power to prevent a forward step.

antoinolachtnai

Well, even if you had the same operator, there would still be a premium to pay to travel by rail rather than bus. At least that is how I think it would have to operate, to incentivise bus use where rail links get overcrowded.

Knocking it all together into one again is certainly not the worst idea in the world. However, there were problems with it before. There needs to be an umbrella for sure, and that's what the DTA should do.

KC61: haven't seen that map. Is there any practical (as distinct from ideological) reason why the Luas would be on it, but the private operators wouldn't be?

Cookie_Monster

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

Well, even if you had the same operator, there would still be a premium to pay to travel by rail rather than bus. ?

Not sure I see the need for that TBH.

Plus as (if) more tramlines /Dart lines/ metro lines come on stream you will be reducing the need for busses and busses become second tier rather than first tier transport filling in the gaps rather than being mainline route to the city centre.

KC61

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

KC61: haven't seen that map. Is there any practical (as distinct from ideological) reason why the Luas would be on it, but the private operators wouldn't be?

None - It's based on the Ordnance Survey Street Guide which automatically has the Rail and LUAS lines on it. The Dublin Bus routes are then overlaid onto the map and colour coded.

The map has been in existance since the late 1980s when the first local service guides were produced!

MOH

KC61 wrote: »

The Annual Irish Rail/LUAS/Dublin Bus ticket is advertised at http://www.taxsaver.ie/ie/tickets.asp

Does that mean it's only available under the taxsaver scheme?

In fairness, who's going to think of looking there when they want to find out the range of bus tickets avaiable?

(By the way, the #1 hit on google for "integrated ticketing" is Rail Users Ireland's article on how we don't relly have any)

DublinWriter

delta_bravo wrote: »

You cant compare them really: Frankfurt was a sandbox after WWII, completely obliterated so town planners had free rein and not much cost limits to design an effective transport system.

Not really. Frankfurt wasn't carpet bombed like Dresden was. There were a lot of old townhouses and buildings around Frankfurt when I lived there.

Better comparisons would be Paris and Brussels, two capital cities that remained unbombed from the air and had very old street layouts. The transport systems in both cities are pretty much unparalleled due to the large amount of public investment made over the years.

parsi

What Joe Public expects from integrated ticketing is to be able to go to a machine and buy a ticket that's valid to get them to their destination without needing to worry about what form of transport they are taking.

If I land in Berlin I can go to the ticket machine and buy a single ABC ticket costing 2.80 that is valid for 2 hours allowing me to go two stops with the s-bahn, change to the u-bahn , travel 5 stops , change to a bus for 3 stops, get a tram for the next bit and get the ferry for my last stage.

The stumbling block in Ireland isn't smart cards or the likes - it's how to divvy up the money between the operators. The Germans manage this, the Brits manage it, the Luxembourgers manage it s why can't we ?

An earlier poster hit the nail on the head - people don't care, politicians don't care , the media don't care - they all seem to prefer to use the lack of it as a weapon rather than try and resolve the issue.

Maybe the private operators could band together and issue some sort of combined ticket (in case a Swords Express habitue finds himself needing a Patton Flyer..)

ardmacha

The revenue from any ticketing system for any licenced service needs to go to regulator, who should then divide it up. No revenue sharing, no licence for operation.

Victor

KC61 wrote: »

I just wonder how many of the single multi-mode journeys are made given the predominance of the bus service as the principal transport provider?

I think what is missing is flexibility. If I want to visit my sister, I have the option of bus via corridor A (1 change), corridor B (1 change), direct express bus after a 10-15 minute walk (limited service), express bus via corridor C (2 changes) or bus & rail. This means I tend to use Rambler tickets and this means I don't use the rail option, even if it is sometimes the best option, cutting hte journey time in half.

Are these tickets anti-competitive?

Taking Cookie Monster's example above, while I don't dispute what he's saying regarding Germany, it is possible to get a train ticket from any DART station with a LUAS/90 add on to any rail station in the country.

But it is poorly advertised and many staff don't know how to do it. It has only become popular in the last 2 years because of Irish Rail web sales - this is what is killing the number 90 financially as the fare split is fixed, but most fares are now paid to Irish Rail.

antoinolachtnai

It is worth reading this article about integration in New York, where you now get a free transfer between buses and subway.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/07/16/nyregion/16metrocard.html?_r=1

It seems to change the way people use the service.

There is also an unlimited metrocard.

Their product range is very simple.

AlekSmart

Their product range is very simple.

Part of our problem albeit a VERY large part,is the existance of so many extraneous bodies which have a vested interest in keeping Public Transport operation in Dublin as COMPLEX as possible in order to maintain their existing fifedoms.

Dept of Transport.
QBN Office.
DCC Proper.
Other Local Authorities.
Service Operators.
DTO.
DTA (Putative)
Dept of Finance.
Dept of Environment.
Gardai.
Dept of Social and Community Affairs.

With apologies to Uncle Tom Cobley and other entities I may have omitted.

We are as far as ever from our long sought goal of a SIMPLE CityWide Public Transport Administration and judging by Mr Cowen and Mr Dempsey`s statements to date it`s not a major thing on THEIR agendas.