More Oscar Talk: Should animated movies be included in 'Best Picture'?

Basq

You know, I sat down last night and watched WALL-E for the second time last night and I truly do think now that this deserved at least a 'Best Picture' nomination. It's not just standard cutesy Pixar fare.. it's an incredibly well-made funny and intelligent film (it does shove the devastating outcome of "environmental damage" a bit too much in your face but it's to be expected).

Is there anywhere in the Academy rules that states an animated film can't be included in Best Picture? And is it only since they brought in the 'Best Animated Feature' in 2001? Apparently, Beauty and the Beast is the only animated film ever to be nominated for Best Picture, and that was 1991.

I'm just amazed at the omission of many animated movies in the 'Best Picture' category over the last few years - many Pixar efforts (most notably WALL-E obviously)..

PS - Karl, ixoy - feel free to move this to the existing Oscar thread if you feel it belongs there.

Dont be at yourself

I don't think there's any rule that says animated films can't be nominated for Best Picture. I'm not sure where foreign films stand though...

As for Wall-E... I felt it was a brilliantly realised but ultimately shallow movie. Its successes were in the animation and realisation of the world and its characters, but it fell short in other departments. I wouldn't have it in my Top 5 movies of the year, anyway.

Pigman II

No but there should be category for "movies that start out brilliantly but then turn into a steaming pile of preachy infantile crap half-way thru" and then Wall-E could have gone home with one additional award.

zAbbo

I liked Wall-E, but I don't think it should have won the animation category.

Waltz with Bashir should have won foreign language as well (which was a joke of a shortlist anyway)

ztoical

There's nothing stopping Animated films, documantary films or foreign films from getting a best picture nomination, its just unlikely given that they have their own cats and the way the voting is carried out for the oscars.

There are a number of animated films I think over the years should have been given best picture nods but Wall-E is certainly not one of them and Kung Fu Panda should have got best animated film, it won nearly everything at the Annie awards [animation industry version of the oscars] It won 11 awards in total while Wall-E was nominated for 7 and won none.

johnny_ultimate

zAbbo wrote: »

Waltz with Bashir should have won foreign language as well (which was a joke of a shortlist anyway)

As much as I liked Waltz with Bashir (especially the imagery, which was eerily beautiful at times) I felt it kind of lost steam towards the end. An impressive film definitely (I thought it lost some of its uniqueness through structural and visual comparisons with Waking Life from a few years back) but I felt Persepolis was the more rounded foreign animation of the year.

As for Wall-E, I would very much agree it should have been nominated for best picture. I can see where the preachy argument is coming from, but for a huge budget film from one of the biggest studios around it was a very brave movie. The atmosphere, characters, music and visuals were all top notch, and the story was simple and extremely effective. But considering how much more accomplished it was then something like Benjamin Button (which may have shared technical competence, but lacked the heart or energy of WALL-E) it easily deserved a best picture nomination (and I'd probably say win too, as I did prefer it over Slumdog).

I'm pretty sure it would be far more difficult for animated films to get nominated after the introduction of the animated Oscar though.

ztoical

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

As for Wall-E, I would very much agree it should have been nominated for best picture. I can see where the preachy argument is coming from, but for a huge budget film from one of the biggest studios around it was a very brave movie. The atmosphere, characters, music and visuals were all top notch, and the story was simple and extremely effective. But considering how much more accomplished it was then something like Benjamin Button (which may have shared technical competence, but lacked the heart or energy of WALL-E) it easily deserved a best picture nomination
.

I guess it comes down to what qualities are looked for in a best picture nod compared to a best animated picture nod cus from an animation point of view there wasn't anything really interesting or original in Wall-E. Kung Fu Panda was a film that while might be looked down upon for its more aimed at kids story and style but from an animation point of view it was far better made film then Wall-E. If only animators where allowed to vote on Best animated feature then Kung Fu Panda would have won hands down so maybe it is a case of Wall-E should have been nominated for best picture as it seems to apeal much more to live action film people then animators.

Lirange

Wall-E was enjoyable but I don't think I would place it among the top handful of films. Maybe I penalise it because I think many other past Pixar films were better. Namely the Incredibles, Ratatouille, Monsters Inc, and the Toy Story productions. I also didn't like the way they spliced in live action in a few segments (i.e. Fred Willard). But Wall-E himself was a wonderful little fella.

Kung Fu Panda whilst not a bad film just didn't have the type of engaging characters that Pixar usually seem to create. Over the Hedge is the only recent Dreamworks film that seemed to have that.

johnny_ultimate

ztoical wrote: »

I guess it comes down to what qualities are looked for in a best picture nod compared to a best animated picture nod cus from an animation point of view there wasn't anything really interesting or original in Wall-E. Kung Fu Panda was a film that while might be looked down upon for its more aimed at kids story and style but from an animation point of view it was far better made film then Wall-E. If only animators where allowed to vote on Best animated feature then Kung Fu Panda would have won hands down so maybe it is a case of Wall-E should have been nominated for best picture as it seems to apeal much more to live action film people then animators.

Don't get me wrong, I was pleasantly surprised by Kung Fu Panda. The visuals were particularly excellent, with some of the most imaginative action sequences of the last few years (the prison escape was a terrific and visceral example). I did think it felt a little slight (ended very suddenly IMO) but one of the more enjoyable films of the year, and a definite step up for Dreamworks. But I still loved WALL-E, which was not only a great film, but a subtle and imaginative animated film too. Moments WALL-E at the side of the spaceship or the space dance were beautifully realised. Both films were impressive in their own right, and perhaps you are right that WALL-E would appeal to 'live action people': because ultimately I thought the themes, characters and atmosphere of WALL-E were superior.

ztoical

johnny_ultimate wrote: »

Moments WALL-E at the side of the spaceship or the space dance were beautifully realised.

I think its a case of having to agree to disagree. I found Wall-E a yawn because those scenes while they might look impressive aren't really that hard to create and as animator I wouldn't find them very interesting to work on. I thought Wall-E was an animated short trying really hard to be a feature film and it reminded me of about 100 different animation student films I've seen. Granted it was still a step up from Cars which just scared me.

The first 45 minutes and last 15 minutes are the best parts of Wall-E. It's just the two robots interacting with each other and nothing else. They showed more emotion in their "eyes" and beeps/tones than any voice acting could have.

Once the human aspect was introduced, it did slightly go downhill. But it doesn't mean it became a bad movie. It was still enjoyable, but not as good as the beginning.

I'm still of the opinion that they should have ended it right after Wall-E regained his memory and cut to credits. It would have been the perfect ending.

This is the ending of Wall-E, so if ya haven't seen it yet, then don't watch this. Obviously

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KUBX5GwV3M

You'd need to have a heart of stone not to think this was one of the most emotional segment of any film this year. But it also cements my belief that it should have ended 2:55 of this video, and not have had the robots in the back.

Boo-yah

I think Wall*E is better than any of the nominated pictures this year so I definitely think it should be in there.

The best animation oscar was a given. Wall*E competing against Bolt and Kung-Fu Panda for it is the equivalent of Mike Tyson having a boxing match with a man with no arms.

Basq

Boo-yah wrote: »

Wall*E competing against Bolt and Kung-Fu Panda for it is the equivalent of Mike Tyson having a boxing match with a man with no arms.

Depends if the man with no arms has the ability to bite...

Wacker

basquille wrote: »

It's not just standard cutesy Pixar fare.. it's an incredibly well-made funny and intelligent film (it does shove the devastating outcome of "environmental damage" a bit too much in your face but it's to be expected).

I have to take issue with this. Standard Pixar fare is, in my opinion, sheer brilliance. Two exceptions: Cars and A Bugs Life. All the other films are fantastic.

May favourite Pixar film is The Incredibles, and I think I'd probably rank Wall E third behind Finding Nemo. As for a Best Picture nomination, I certainly thought it was better than Frost/Nixon, but whatever. It got a brass. that's enough for me.

Pigman II

basquille wrote: »

Depends if the man with no arms has the ability to bite...

Tyson's pretty good at that also.

Sanjuro

Yes, of course they should be included. The only reason they're not is a ridiculous amount of snobbery that dismisses animated films as not proper films. The Academy can go to hell.... signed... a disgruntled animator.

Handsome Bob

basquille wrote: »

You know, I sat down last night and watched WALL-E for the second time last night and I truly do think now that this deserved at least a 'Best Picture' nomination. It's not just standard cutesy Pixar fare.. it's an incredibly well-made funny and intelligent film (it does shove the devastating outcome of "environmental damage" a bit too much in your face but it's to be expected).

Is there anywhere in the Academy rules that states an animated film can't be included in Best Picture? And is it only since they brought in the 'Best Animated Feature' in 2001? Apparently, Beauty and the Beast is the only animated film ever to be nominated for Best Picture, and that was 1991.

I'm just amazed at the omission of many animated movies in the 'Best Picture' category over the last few years - many Pixar efforts (most notably WALL-E obviously)..

PS - Karl, ixoy - feel free to move this to the existing Oscar thread if you feel it belongs there.

I imagine the reason an animated film wouldn't for the most part get an Oscar nomination for Best Picture is the same reason they wouldn't usually consider an action movie or a superhero movie; they don't give these films enough credit. The Academy tend to look down (in regards to the most credible gongs) on anything that is of a stylish nature which means no fantastical make-up and no flashy special effects. They want real pictures stripped of any glitz, real people, within a certain degree of "reality". Is it fair that they dismiss great films and performances because of this? Nope, but that's always the way it has been and the way it will always be for the forseeable future. I'm sure you know all of this already.:pac:

TheIrishGrover

I agree with Sanjuro, I think it's a case of animation still being looked upon as a minor offshoot aimed at young kids. Anmation will never be as respected in the West as it is in the East.

Beauty and The Beast did get nominated for Best Pic alright but I believe that was more of a pat on the back for Disney getting back to their former glory. As much as I enjoyed Beauty and The Beast I thoughtThe Lion King is their greatest film and it was snubbed.

I believe Wall-e should have been nominated for best pic. The cinematography alone was breathtaking IMO. Someone said earlier that the flying scenes were not hard to make. I'm not sure animators would agree with that point. They blew me away. I suppose what the poster was trying to say was that Wall-e was not a generational leap forward in technology/animation like Toy Story was when it came out. This is probably true but just because something is not leaps and bounds ahead of what came out last year should not mean that we shold be blase about the tech/artistry involved.

Saying that, I do not believe that these rotoscoped "animated" films should be included in the animation catagory. I mean, why Bashir and not A Scanner Darkly? Where is the line drawn.

ztoical

Boo-yah wrote: »

The best animation oscar was a given. Wall*E competing against Bolt and Kung-Fu Panda for it is the equivalent of Mike Tyson having a boxing match with a man with no arms.

Really? so why at the Annie Awards did Kung Fu Panda win 11 awards [inlcuding best animated feature] and Wall-E win nothing?

Sammag

As far as I am concerned, watch the making of 'The Nightmare before Christmas' and this thread is a done deal with a clear 'Yes'.

I was flabbergasted at the amount of time and effort and pure raw talent, dedication and artistic ability which went into that movie. As much as I fully and totally admire the people and creative ability which goes into computer aided/generated movies like; Monsters Inc, Finding Nemo, Bolt, The Incredibles and other Pixar and Dreamworks movies etc... (although i tend to prefer the former productions), when you look at the aforementioned TNBC and it's incredibly executed makings and see the end result, it puts stop motion animation into such a higher category of adoration. That aside, I fully believe these movies (stop motion or digital) should be included in the 'Best Picture' category.

ztoical

Sammag wrote: »

I fully believe these movies (stop motion or digital) should be included in the 'Best Picture' category.

hey theres still classical hand drawn animation being made as well you know. If you think stop motion is alot of work trying drawing 24 drawings per second per character plus backgrounds, overlays, underlays and effects for an hour and half.

Sammag

ztoical wrote: »

hey theres still classical hand drawn animation being made as well you know. If you think stop motion is alot of work trying drawing 24 drawings per second per character plus backgrounds, overlays, underlays and effects for an hour and half.

No, apologies, you're right and I have just as much respect for hand drawn work. I do as I studied animation at college level and still have my trusty peg bar and reams of old cels I worked on

Galvasean

Deleted User wrote: »

. They showed more emotion in their "eyes" and beeps/tones than any voice acting could have.

Lies and deceit!
-signed, disgruntled voice actor.

On topic: if a movie is good enough it's good enough, regardless of what format it's delivered in.