15 Greedy Men

Langerland

Flicking between the bickering on Q&A and Vincent O'Brien last night when one person made it all very very simple and clear. 15 greedy b%*&tards, who live among us, have have put this huge, barely tolerable debt every single citizen, my children and my children's children.

JerryQ

Yes - and only because Cowen/Lenihan bailed them out. There is no justification for taking on the liabilities of AngloIrish.

future_plans

I don't know if I am being naive, but I think Cowan and Lenihen actually thought they were doing the right thing for Ireland and generally mean well. They are just not equipped for this. The bankers saw them coming a mile off, spun them some disaster story and used them to bail themselves out.

JerryQ

So rather than criminally corrupt, you believe they, and all their advisers in the Department of finance, are incompetent?

The Insider

What were they meant to do let it go to the wall?

CiaranC

Why not?

,8,1

Don't know about anyone else, but I'm getting extremely bored with the whole banking debacle.

Suffice to say there's a lot of corruption and the banking system operates in a cryptic manner. I really don't need to know all the minutae.

JerryQ

you do need to know about it - as you'll be paying for it unless you plan on emigrating. The Anglo bailout is going to cost every worker in this country at least 25,000 euro - and if we take the public sector out - it more like 40K for every private sector worker.

The Insider

CiaranC wrote: »

Why not?

The Anglo Irish employees for one (the ordinarily joe soaps who would have been thrown on the dole queue not the execs)

The tens of thousands of people who have deposits etc within the bank.

The knock on effect it would have had on the Irish banking system and economy at the time.

JerryQ

The depositors were already protected by deposit protection.
You don't take on 50billion+ in liabilities to protect a few hundred jobs.

The only people who would have lost money were institutional investors/interbank.

Banks go belly-up all the time - loads have gone in the US in the last year.

JerryQ

FYI - US banks closed by regulators

http://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/banklist.html

future_plans

JerryQ wrote: »

So rather than criminally corrupt, you believe they, and all their advisers in the Department of finance, are incompetent?

I just doubt they would have done this with the benefit of hindsight. The 2 men have integrity and genuinely put the national interest as they saw it first.

The bankers were looking for a quick fix to a problem that really begun with Sean Quinns interest in Anglo. At the end of the day, Quinn fancied a piece of the pie and it went belly up for him. These men are answerable to nobody it seems and sail off into the sunset.

Of course everybody is entitled to an opinion, but people who say who cares how or what happened, lets just fix it are missing the point I think. Something has to be done about what happened. Don't forget we are just a small fish in a very big pond and with all of these wreckless tradings coming to light, and little being done about it, Ireland's already smashed reputation is deflating even further.

is_that_so

Ireland is much too small to have a bank collapse. The intertwined nature of the financial system that has emerged in the last few months meant that letting Anglo go would have pulled the whole thing apart and we'd now be talking to the IMF. It suggests that while the nationalisation of Anglo is extremely unpalatable, the alternative was far worse.

As the joke that was doing the rounds in financial circles went.

What's the difference between Ireland and Iceland? One letter.

I can understand people being angry about it and I am not happy myself but Anglo was not just "greedy bastards", a lot of ordinary people took a punt on it purchasing shares with lump sums and savings. I agree with Michael Soden on this. Remove the bankers at the top, the sooner the better.

Everyone else, greedy or not, is entitled to due process. If any wrongdoing can be proved then those who perpetrated it should be locked up. Baying for blood, while it soothes the anger can sometimes prevent people from thinking through the logic of it. People should also remember that we are part of it with our own (obscene IMO) credit splurge and massive personal debt. Banks are certainly to blame for handing out cash willy-nilly but loans/CC balances are not free and have to be repaid.

JerryQ

The 2 men have integrity and genuinely put the national interest as they saw it first???

Do you honestly believe this?
The same two who take medical cards away from the elderly, who hand billions to the banks but can't find 9million for cancer screening our children, who have presided over the entire fiasco of our bubble boom and bust.

Cowen was having dinner with these guys only weeks before he handed them our money.
He won't name the investors when he's perfectly entitled to.
He handed 600K to the financial regulator to get him to go quietly
Where are the gardai, the fraud squad - why haven't any of these fraudsters and embezzlers been arrested?

The Insider

JerryQ wrote: »

The same two who take medical cards away from the elderly, who hand billions to the banks but can't find 9million for cancer screening our children, who have presided over the entire fiasco of our bubble boom and bust.

Cowen was having dinner with these guys only weeks before he handed them our money.
He won't name the investors when he's perfectly entitled to.
He handed 600K to the financial regulator to get him to go quietly
Where are the gardai, the fraud squad - why haven't any of these fraudsters and embezzlers been arrested?

They are part of the same party that gave the medical cards to the elderly in the first place. If you are talking about the cervical cancer screening the if you actually paid attention to what Harney said at the time you wouldn't be getting your knickers in a twist.

The reason the names have not being brought to the public domain is because the attorney general advised the Government not to do this.

The Insider

JerryQ wrote: »

FYI - US banks closed by regulators

http://www.fdic.gov/bank/individual/failed/banklist.html

Have you been paying attention to what has happened in the last few months??

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26953481/

CiaranC

The Insider wrote: »

The reason the names have not being brought to the public domain is because the attorney general advised the Government not to do this.

Interesting. Source?

The Insider

CiaranC wrote: »

Interesting. Source?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cowen-still-under-pressure-to-name-golden-circle-1648369.html

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/lawyers-at-odds-over-unmasking-of-anglo-10-1646861.html

But the Irish Independent understands the Attorney General has comprehensively outlined reasons why the names cannot be made public, citing the Central Bank Act 1942.

woodseb

JerryQ wrote: »

Banks go belly-up all the time - loads have gone in the US in the last year.

all small inconsequential banks in terms of the overall economy, look what happened when they let a big bank fail

we've already seen through the scandals how interconnected the banks and big business are in ireland - letting them fail is not sensible

JerryQ

To reply to myself:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0224/anglo.html

Looks like the guards and fraud squad are going in

yoshytoshy

Thats far too little ,far too late. What are they expecting to find ? ,the billions under the carpet:rolleyes:

We're a laughing stock ,the government needs to go.

AlekSmart

the government needs to go.

It appears that the awful reality is sinking in that we do not have a Functioning Government in the generally accepted sense of the term.

Wherever one looks on the Irish Admministrative Stage we have Ministers who plead ignorance cos nobody advised them.
Advisers who say they did`nt advise cos they were never asked.
Civil Servants who say their advice went unheeded cos there were Advisors there to do that therefore making CS advice unnecessary.

And somewhere down at the very bottom is a large body of untreated sewage known as the General Public who are entitled to NOTHING.

At this stage the arrival of the IMF or even Walt Disney Inc to take over the country might be a preferable option to retaining the current sad little cast of incompetents !

bmaxi

JerryQ wrote: »

To reply to myself:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0224/anglo.html

Looks like the guards and fraud squad are going in

They'd be better off getting on to the environment department of all the local councils and asking if any large bonfires have been reported. Also if people have complained about the noise of lump hammers crashing on hard disks. :rolleyes:

Dannyboy83

JerryQ wrote: »

you do need to know about it - as you'll be paying for it unless you plan on emigrating. The Anglo bailout is going to cost every worker in this country at least 25,000 euro - and if we take the public sector out - it more like 40K for every private sector worker.

Your figures are way, way out.

The toxic debt between Anglo and BOI alone stands at 11Billion.

Conservative estimates based on real figures put the debt at somewhere around 4 times that much.
Less conservative estimates put it at 110 Billion

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0217/1224241278003.html?via=mr

Realisitcally, you will be contributing between a third and a half of your life's earnings to pay off this debt, if you stay in this country.

Mr.Micro

JerryQ wrote: »

To reply to myself:

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0224/anglo.html

Looks like the guards and fraud squad are going in

Amazing, weeks later the Police act. A joke, talk about telegraphing your intentions. Ah sure we wil give the lads plenty of time to get rid of the evidence and then we will make a show/gesture of it for the public. You could not make it up. What a sham.

jpfahy

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Amazing, weeks later the Police act. A joke, talk about telegraphing your intentions. Ah sure we wil give the lads plenty of time to get rid of the evidence and then we will make a show/gesture of it for the public. You could not make it up. What a sham.

Jaysus that was quick, there's no way Anglo could have had time to shred any incriminating documents, they only had a few MONTHS, LOL, what a joke

We Irish must be the greatest gob****es in the world to put up with this s**t

Langerland

Noel Dempsey was talking about how Garda need evidence before they can charge somebody this evening on the news and that's why it took so long for them to go in.....DESPAIR!! They are only looking for evidence now. Not charging somebody!

jimmycrackcorm

We should start another tribunal to sort out this mess, find blame and take no action. It would be very cheap too - what's €300million compared to billions these days.

PeakOutput

which 15 men is the thread refering to?

is it the so called golden circle or the board of anglo? im confuzzled

Mr.Micro

PeakOutput wrote: »

which 15 men is the thread refering to?

is it the so called golden circle or the board of anglo? im confuzzled

According to the PriceWaterhouseCooper report and the press last weekend 15 customers at the Anglo were each given loans of 500 million Euro or more just before the s..t hid the fan. Not sure if the 15 include some of the 10.

Seth Brundle

Mr.Micro wrote: »

Not sure if the 15 include some of the 10.

Sure how would you know that?
neither groups have been officially named!

The Raven.

bmaxi wrote: »

They'd be better off getting on to the environment department of all the local councils and asking if any large bonfires have been reported. Also if people have complained about the noise of lump hammers crashing on hard disks. :rolleyes:

You have hit the nail on the head! In the middle of all the gloom, I think that's the funniest post I've read all week !!

future_plans

kbannon wrote: »

Sure how would you know that?
neither groups have been officially named!

One of the Golden boys gives an interview (by proxy) in the Independent.

HE has been expecting to answer his front door to gardai since the 'golden circle' scandal first broke nearly a fortnight ago.

So for one of the 10 long-standing Anglo customers -- dubbed the 'golden circle' after they were loaned a total of €451m to buy stock in the bank last summer -- news that the Fraud Squad had begun searching the bank's headquarters yesterday brought no comfort.

But he has had no query from detectives, not a raised eyebrow from the Financial Regulator.

Neither has the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement nor the Stock Exchange's inquiry tried to make contact.

He used a go-between to speak to the Irish Independent and like the other nine golden Anglo stockholders, he is preparing a strategy to deal with the fallout when his name is made public.

Before the downfall, he could have been a poster boy for Anglo Irish Bank after their support for his successful developments.

And, he assures friends, he is currently up to date with his interest and capital repayments.

He has never done anything illegal in his life and, since the 'golden circle' scandal broke, he is reluctant to answer the phone or the door if he doesn't know who is calling.

"A golden circle?" quipped the intermediary. "That Anglo share deal was more like a millstone of lead around his (the developer's) neck."

A well-known Dublin stockbroker, who was not involved in any of the Anglo transactions, agreed that the 'golden circle' could never have made a profit from the July share deal.

Piecing together the information from a number of reliable sources, it is clear that senior Anglo executives panicked when they underwrote the cost of the bank's own shares for trusted customers.

According to sources, a meeting must have been called when they believed Sean Quinn's overhang would bring down the company if his shares were released on to the market.

Each executive who had a close relationship with a wealthy customer agreed to target their client and put the sweetheart share deal to them.

"Some of these customers had a more intimate relationship with their bankers than their wives," said a source. "And some of them felt they owed the bank a favour and others might have been deeply in debt to the bank and felt they had no choice."

Individual members of the 'golden circle' were not identified to each other and some of those approached said 'no', according to the developer.

"The so-called 'golden circle' were developers, with a specific knowledge of property, and they would not have known much about the stock market," said a source.

The developer told the go-between that the bank told him about the unwinding of Sean Quinn's CFD position and how he could help the country and Anglo by buying some of the shares he (Mr Quinn) couldn't take up.

The bank executive was asked the same questions as the Financial Regulator asked of Anglo: was the share deal legal and were the brokers satisfied no stock exchange rules were breached?

The Anglo executive assured him the bank's solicitors had signed off on the proposal and that a major international broking company, Morgan Stanley, would handle the deal.

The developer says he was given some comfort when he heard Morgan Stanley was involved but he was still very reluctant to go ahead, that he was never motivated by any potential profit and that the whole deal made him very uncomfortable.

He was just one of the 10 long-standing Anglo customers who were loaned a total of €451m to buy a whopping 10pc of the bank's stock through nominee companies last July.

It should have been a so-called sweetheart deal: 75pc of the loans were secured against the shares and the remaining 25pc against personal assets.

But, as the recession bites deeper and the property market slumps, it is not clear how many of the 10 have any substantial wealth left.

The bank believes it will have to write off the remaining €300m it loaned to the 10 investors and, since Anglo has been nationalised, the taxpayer will almost certainly be underwriting the loss.

The share deal was agreed with the executive in Anglo in breakneck time last July, about an hour, according to the developer. And that was a full year after the first reports of sub-prime loans undermining US banks and suspicions about Anglo were beginning to surface.

"I was not recommending bank shares, and certainly not Anglo Irish Bank shares, to my clients last summer," said a leading Dublin broker. "And I don't see how any of the so-called Gold Circle could ever have made a profit from Anglo shares."

And as suspicions about the bank mushroomed, some dealers said they wouldn't have taken them for nothing -- even with a free DVD.

It appears his defense is that he was tricked / duped / whatever you want to call it, into this deal. He's only a developer and knows nothing of stocks and shares!

bmaxi

future_plans wrote: »

One of the Golden boys gives an interview (by proxy) in the Independent.



It appears his defense is that he was tricked / duped / whatever you want to call it, into this deal. He's only a developer and knows nothing of stocks and shares!

Oh dear, I feel so bad, I was so wrong about Property Developers. Maybe the Management Company in my estate have cut the grass in the last three years and I just didn't notice. After all, they wouldn't have taken the fees if they hadn't, would they?

Langerland

The first line of that got me thinking, I wonder what kind of front door he has? Is he living in a small 2 bed duplex in North Dublin or in the surrounding counties that he sold for 400k?

His attitude is priceless. Oh your solicitors say its ok and Morgan Stanley are involved. Ok, I'm in. Make me richer!

Even if he was stupid enough to get involved without checking the full details, thats surely criminal negligence anyway.

PeakOutput

Langerland wrote: »

The first line of that got me thinking, I wonder what kind of front door he has? Is he living in a small 2 bed duplex in North Dublin or in the surrounding counties that he sold for 400k?

His attitude is priceless. Oh your solicitors say its ok and Morgan Stanley are involved. Ok, I'm in. Make me richer!

Even if he was stupid enough to get involved without checking the full details, thats surely criminal negligence anyway.

how is that criminal negligence? are you for real? you say yourself he was told by a solicitor that everything was ok. you go to buy a house tomorrow and have a solicitor go over everything for you he says its all gravy and you spend half a mill buying the house. a month later gardai arrive at your door saying the owner was under investigation and was ordered to not sell the house he has now scarpered with you half mill and the cab are taking over the house(i dont know if this is possible but say it is) would that be your fault? or your solicitors fault? or the criminals who sold you the house knowing full well what was going to happen?

im not suprised that so much attention is being paid to this 'golden circle' but it is simply a smoke screen for the real issues

the facts are that these business men were offered a very sweet deal by a bank and they would have been mad to turn it down. the bank was COMPLETELY WRONG to do this but i believe that the people accepted the offer thinking there was no problem

does anyone here think they really broke the law? from the article the police dont even seem to think they have broken the law.

i really hope that what anglo did was against the law so that someone can be punished but there is not one person here who, if approached last year being offered shares in one of the most succesful banks in europe WITH NO APPARENT RISK because the bank was using the shares themselves as collateral, would have refused this offer

Langerland

The Anglo executive assured him the bank's solicitors had signed off on the proposal and that a major international broking company, Morgan Stanley, would handle the deal.

Anybody buying a house would have their own solicitors counsel. Not accept the word of some bank exec who says that the "banks" solicitors have given it the green light. This suited the developers a lot better. A possible safety net should things go wrong, and they did.

Mr.Micro

Langerland wrote: »

Anybody buying a house would have their own solicitors counsel. Not accept the word of some bank exec who says that the "banks" solicitors have given it the green light. This suited the developers a lot better. A possible safety net should things go wrong, and they did.

Exactly Langerland, take the word of a bank exec, no way. There are plenty dodgy solicitors here as well.