The Purge - The Jedi's fault?

Evilsbane

"A Jedi uses the Force for knowledge and defense. Never for attack."
-Yoda

"We're keepers of the peace, not soldiers.
-Mace Windu

"Shoot him down! Shoot him down!"
-Ki-Adi-Mundi

Does anyone else think that the Jedi should have kept out of the war? Even though I know we have the benefit of hindsight, surely the Jedi should have realised that it was not their purpose to get embroiled in politics and wars? Moreover, it seems that the war de-sensitised many Jedi to violence, to the point where they started to become more aggressive than was their usual nature. In the end, by participating in the war at all, they sealed their fate through the war's decimation of their ranks and the perpetuation of the general chaos that clouded their ability to use the force.

The novelisation of RotS says that Sidious was master of the "Jedi Trap": a Sith strategy where you trick your opponent into walking into a lose-lose situation, for example Sidious arranged for Obi-Wan to be sent to Utapau and no matter whether Kenobi or Grievous died, it was someone Sidious was planning on killing anyway. And by even engaging Grievous, Obi-Wan was unable to interfere with Anakin's conversion. If that's so, then the Clone Wars is surely the ultimate example of the Jedi Trap: no matter which side won the war, a Sith would be set up as Emperor, and no matter how well the Jedi fought, their very participation hastened their destruction.

The Jedi had become so attached to the political system of the Republic that they could not see that neither side deserved to win the war. By the end, the fear of losing the Republic even drove Mace Windu to attempt to execute an unarmed prisoner. It's no wonder Anakin was confused about who the good guys were, when the very Council members who accused him of not being calm and mature enough were going around spying on politicians and playing fast and loose with the rules themselves.

"A flaw more and more common among Jedi these days. Even the older, more experienced ones"
-Yoda

What does everyone think? Did the Jedi have an alternative?

dade

I think that some of them may have held to the ideal of being defenders of the peace and justice. they say the separatists as standing against the rightful government and so the Jedi should in their role fight against it. I think they became attached to the existing political system because it stood for so long and was all any of them really knew and couldn't fathom a different regime. they all did the one think they had admonished their padawans not to do, The warned them about attachment to family, friends, loved ones but forgot that attachment could be to more than just people, in this case to their society and way of life. try attachment would have meant they would have had no problem with a rightful and just change in government

I also think a lot of Jedi lost their way with the use of the Clones. they where suppose to protect all life, yet they saw no problem in letting clones die or even the creation of the clones.

as for the Jedi trap, I agree with you that this was the whole idea, Sedious was going to rule one way or the other

Evilsbane

dade wrote: »

I think that some of them may have held to the ideal of being defenders of the peace and justice. they say the separatists as standing against the rightful government and so the Jedi should in their role fight against it. I think they became attached to the existing political system because it stood for so long and was all any of them really knew and couldn't fathom a different regime. they all did the one think they had admonished their padawans not to do, The warned them about attachment to family, friends, loved ones but forgot that attachment could be to more than just people, in this case to their society and way of life. try attachment would have meant they would have had no problem with a rightful and just change in government

I also think a lot of Jedi lost their way with the use of the Clones. they where suppose to protect all life, yet they saw no problem in letting clones die or even the creation of the clones.

as for the Jedi trap, I agree with you that this was the whole idea, Sedious was going to rule one way or the other

I agree that the Jedi were justified in defending innocent systems from the Separatist War Machine, but the problem is that the Separatist's propaganda was true; the Republic had become corrupt and couldn't be allowed to continue as it was. TBH, part of me thinks that the Sith did the Galaxy a favour by wiping the slate clean and forcing everyone to start again. Kinda like WWII: the absolute evil that transpired galvanised everyone towards making the world a better place and making sure that no Holocaust would happen again under their watch.

If the Jedi shouldn't have gone along with the Clone Wars, what SHOULD they have done, though? Maybe the Purge was inevitable no matter what they did?

dade

Evilsbane wrote: »

If the Jedi shouldn't have gone along with the Clone Wars, what SHOULD they have done, though? Maybe the Purge was inevitable no matter what they did?

oh they should have been involved all right, but I'm thinking there were on the wrong side. like you said, the republic had become a pit of injustice and corruption; this goes against the core values of teh Jedi. I think they became complacent and suffered from the Icarus paradox

Evilsbane

dade wrote: »

oh they should have been involved all right, but I'm thinking there were on the wrong side. like you said, the republic had become a pit of injustice and corruption; this goes against the core values of teh Jedi. I think they became complacent and suffered from the Icarus paradox

But joining the Separatists would also have been a mistake; the whole leadership structure was based on wealth and was just as corrupt. How could the Jedi save the Galaxy from itself?

dade

Evilsbane wrote: »

But joining the Separatists would also have been a mistake; the whole leadership structure was based on wealth and was just as corrupt. How could the Jedi save the Galaxy from itself?

yeah i see what you say about the separatists being the same as the republic. Only solution kill'em all and take over themselves. if they're really for peace and justice so it should all work out.

well in an ideal galaxy maybe. honestly i think there was no really solution except to minimise collateral damage

Evilsbane

dade wrote: »

yeah i see what you say about the separatists being the same as the republic. Only solution kill'em all and take over themselves. if they're really for peace and justice so it should all work out.

That's exactly what Mace Windu tried in RotS. Palpatine even managed to use THAT for his own purposes: the next day he showed the Senate his deformed face and said: "clearly the Jedi are the bad guys; they tried to assassinate the democratically elected Supreme Chancellor! Dooku was one of them and they staged this whole war as an attempt to take over! Make me Emperor and I promise I'll keep everyone safe from them!"

evil-monkey

Evilsbane wrote: »

I agree that the Jedi were justified in defending innocent systems from the Separatist War Machine, but the problem is that the Separatist's propaganda was true; the Republic had become corrupt and couldn't be allowed to continue as it was.

This is the key point right here. The Republic WAS corrupt, and the Separatist cause was, in theory, a just one. The problem was that the Confederacy went about it the wrong way and tried to get various systems to secede through the use of force. Had they pursued their agenda through a completely political means, then there could be no question that the Jedi were on the wrong side.

On the other side of the coin, the Jedi are also sworn to defend the Republic. And as corrupt as it may have been, they were bound to protect it. Weeding out corruption in the Senate was the job of the politicians, and the people thorugh the mandates they hand out. The Jedi were protectors of peace, and thus did what was required of them when the Republic was threatened by the CIS.

Evilsbane wrote: »

But joining the Separatists would also have been a mistake; the whole leadership structure was based on wealth and was just as corrupt. How could the Jedi save the Galaxy from itself?

I suppose Revan answers this for us in a way. When the Galaxy was threatened, he looked to conquer it so that he could ensure its safety. He didn't trust the Jedi or the Republic to protect it, so he looked to take the job into his own hands. The question here is; which is better, a weak democracy or a strong dictatorship??

...

I think that the main issue that the Jedi have to answer for is their use of the Clones. Not all of them, but a fair whack, treated these men as pawns in a galactic game of chess. They sent living creatures, men dieing for a Republic that did not recognise their claim to the rights of civilisation, to their deaths in droves. Did the end justify the means?? I think not.

Good thread. Should be interesting.

Evilsbane

evil-monkey wrote: »

This is the key point right here. The Republic WAS corrupt, and the Separatist cause was, in theory, a just one. The problem was that the Confederacy went about it the wrong way and tried to get various systems to secede through the use of force. Had they pursued their agenda through a completely political means, then there could be no question that the Jedi were on the wrong side.

But with guys like Dooku, Gunray and Grievous at the helm, the Separatists never intended to rid the galaxy of corruption.

On the other side of the coin, the Jedi are also sworn to defend the Republic. And as corrupt as it may have been, they were bound to protect it. Weeding out corruption in the Senate was the job of the politicians, and the people thorugh the mandates they hand out. The Jedi were protectors of peace, and thus did what was required of them when the Republic was threatened by the CIS.

That's a key mistake there, in my opinion. The Jedi, who have always been wary of attachment, should never have sworn themselves to the Republic. There are two reasons for this:

1- Their hands were tied when injustice was outside of the Republic. Notice how Anakin never got to come back and free his mother. The Jedi were aware of the slavery and felt free to ignore it.
2- Defending people is fine but they should have devoted themselves to defend PEOPLE, not political systems. By choosing the latter, they made themselves henchman who had to follow the orders of whomever happened to be the most popular in the eyes of the Senate.

In my opinion they should have chosen a planet in the Outer Rim, set up their own little independent system and offered to help the Republic when it was wrongfully attacked.

I suppose Revan answers this for us in a way. When the Galaxy was threatened, he looked to conquer it so that he could ensure its safety. He didn't trust the Jedi or the Republic to protect it, so he looked to take the job into his own hands. The question here is; which is better, a weak democracy or a strong dictatorship??

The assertion that there's only two (bad) choices when there are in fact many is called a false dilemma, and the Sith specialised in them. As Obama put it: "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals". Or as Carlsberg put it: "It's never just A or B. There's probably C". The best choice is a strong democracy. By settling for one of the other two, the Jedi lost.

I think that the main issue that the Jedi have to answer for is their use of the Clones. Not all of them, but a fair whack, treated these men as pawns in a galactic game of chess. They sent living creatures, men dieing for a Republic that did not recognise their claim to the rights of civilisation, to their deaths in droves. Did the end justify the means?? I think not.

Good thread. Should be interesting.

Yeah, as I said, this is one of the worst decisions the Jedi made. By treating living beings as expendable, they started down a dark path which fed the Dark Side and clouded the Force. It should never have been acceptable for living beings to be born to fight so others wouldn't have to.

TBH, the prequel trilogy shows the good guys making all the wrong decisions while the classic trilogy shows them making all the right ones. Rebel forces having the choice to fight instead of being programmed to do so? Check. Droids being treated as valuable members of the team? Check. Non-Jedi pulling their weight and even saving the Jedi's skin? Check. Skywalker initially choosing to stay on Tatooine and fulfill his duty to his family instead of abadnoning them for adventure? Check. Skywalker refusing to murder an unarmed Sith just to shield his friends from the war they've chosen? Check. Good guys working towards a more fair and democratic society? Check.

evil-monkey

Evilsbane wrote: »

But with guys like Dooku, Gunray and Grievous at the helm, the Separatists never intended to rid the galaxy of corruption.

Grievous and Gunray were tools, nothing more. I do believe that Dooku would have gotten rid of corruption, as the most corrupt entity in the Galaxy was indeed the Republic. Would he have replaced the corrupt Republic with something better - perhaps not (he didn't know the full extent of Sidious' plans, though I admit he did know of the plans for the Death Star). He couldn't have gotten it any worse, that's for sure.

Key point when considering who was the greater of two evils is this; Dooku deployed a droid army, the Republic bred and deployed an army of human slaves...

Evilsbane wrote: »

The Jedi, who have always been wary of attachment, should never have sworn themselves to the Republic. There are two reasons for this:

1- Their hands were tied when injustice was outside of the Republic. Notice how Anakin never got to come back and free his mother. The Jedi were aware of the slavery and felt free to ignore it.
2- Defending people is fine but they should have devoted themselves to defend PEOPLE, not political systems. By choosing the latter, they made themselves henchman who had to follow the orders of whomever happened to be the most popular in the eyes of the Senate.

But the Jedi had to have been answerable to somebody. If not the Chancellor and the Senate then who??

Evilsbane wrote: »

In my opinion they should have chosen a planet in the Outer Rim, set up their own little independent system and offered to help the Republic when it was wrongfully attacked.

And would this independent system be open to Jedi only?? Who would fund this operation?? Surely not the Republic. And if any normal people could come to this planet, was not just a haven to escape government and taxes...

Yeah, as I said, this is one of the worst decisions the Jedi made. By treating living beings as expendable, they started down a dark path which fed the Dark Side and clouded the Force. It should never have been acceptable for living beings to be born to fight so others wouldn't have to.

Evilsbane wrote: »

Good guys working towards a more fair and democratic society? Check.

But does this not raise the question, were they not working to restore the democracy that had, only a few decades ago, been inherent with corruption?? Obviously, a weak democracy is better than the Empire any day (blowing up planets etc wasn't a great way to go about things) but surely the ideals of the Republic they fought for were only romantic notions. The Republic in reality was something that should have been taken down long before Dooku tried to do it...

Evilsbane

evil-monkey wrote: »

Grievous and Gunray were tools, nothing more. I do believe that Dooku would have gotten rid of corruption, as the most corrupt entity in the Galaxy was indeed the Republic. Would he have replaced the corrupt Republic with something better - perhaps not (he didn't know the full extent of Sidious' plans, though I admit he did know of the plans for the Death Star). He couldn't have gotten it any worse, that's for sure.

Key point when considering who was the greater of two evils is this; Dooku deployed a droid army, the Republic bred and deployed an army of human slaves...

Dooku was going to execute two Jedi and a Senator JUST to appease Nute Gunray. With the way the Separatists were made up of the businesses, banking clans and unions, there's no way his new order would have been less corrupt. What would disappear would be the pretense of democracy.

But the Jedi had to have been answerable to somebody. If not the Chancellor and the Senate then who??

They needn't have been answerable to anyone if they had kept out of galactic affairs. Sure, they could allow individual Jedi to join the Republic cause by personal choice, but there's no reason they should have committed to the war as an organisation.

And would this independent system be open to Jedi only?? Who would fund this operation?? Surely not the Republic. And if any normal people could come to this planet, was not just a haven to escape government and taxes...

There were plenty of independent systems on the Outer Rim, such as Tattooine. I see no reason why a Jedi homeworld would be worse than these.

Yeah, as I said, this is one of the worst decisions the Jedi made. By treating living beings as expendable, they started down a dark path which fed the Dark Side and clouded the Force. It should never have been acceptable for living beings to be born to fight so others wouldn't have to.

Of course, Threepio and Artoo were pretty self-aware too so maybe having droid armies is a bit iffy?

But does this not raise the question, were they not working to restore the democracy that had, only a few decades ago, been inherent with corruption?? Obviously, a weak democracy is better than the Empire any day (blowing up planets etc wasn't a great way to go about things) but surely the ideals of the Republic they fought for were only romantic notions. The Republic in reality was something that should have been taken down long before Dooku tried to do it...

The Republic was not corrupt conceptually. Obviously the Rebel Alliance didn't want to go back to EXACTLY the way things were.

irishthump

evil-monkey wrote: »

Grievous and Gunray were tools, nothing more. I do believe that Dooku would have gotten rid of corruption, as the most corrupt entity in the Galaxy was indeed the Republic. Would he have replaced the corrupt Republic with something better - perhaps not (he didn't know the full extent of Sidious' plans, though I admit he did know of the plans for the Death Star). He couldn't have gotten it any worse, that's for sure.

Key point when considering who was the greater of two evils is this; Dooku deployed a droid army, the Republic bred and deployed an army of human slaves...

Wrong.

The Republic did not create a clone army. This was purely a creation of Palpatine/Sidious.
He put the wheels in motion by posing as Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas and placing an order for the army with the cloners on Kamino.
Then, using the emergency created by the attacks of Dooku's seperatists, he manipulated the Galactic Senate into granting him emergency powers.
After which his first act was to "Create a Grand Army of the Republic".

Without Palpatine's machinations, the clone army would never have come about in the first place.

irishthump

And as for the OP....

No, I don't believe the Jedi had any choice but to intervene. Their position as "Keepers of the Peace" coupled with the intrinsic respect for all living things contained in the Jedi doctrine pretty much insured they would help.

And Palpatine was all too aware of that.

Evilsbane

irishthump wrote: »

No, I don't believe the Jedi had any choice but to intervene. Their position as "Keepers of the Peace" coupled with the intrinsic respect for all living things contained in the Jedi doctrine pretty much insured they would help.

The thing is, wouldn't an intrinsic respect for all living things mean they would shun war (which is quite distinct from the policing duties they had carried out previously)?

Also, RotJ shows Palpatine tempting Luke to kill an enemy to save friends. Luke, looking at Vader's hand, realises that choosing the easy way to accomplish your goals is wrong and sees what future would await him in the cowering form of his father. Using this as an analogy, we see that the Jedi MUST have had another choice but chose to sacrifice their ideals to protect those who, even by Yoda's advice, they should have been preparing themselves to let go of.

evil-monkey

Evilsbane wrote: »

What would disappear would be the pretense of democracy.

Exactly. At least with Dooku what you saw was what you got.

Evilsbane wrote: »

They needn't have been answerable to anyone if they had kept out of galactic affairs.

Such power could not go unchecked by the people. The idea was that through the senate the people would control the Jedi. If the Jedi were answerable to no one, they would be a greater threat to the Galaxy than the Confederacy and Republic put together...

Evilsbane wrote: »

Sure, they could allow individual Jedi to join the Republic cause by personal choice, but there's no reason they should have committed to the war as an organisation.

This would have fractured the Order.

Evilsbane wrote: »

There were plenty of independent systems on the Outer Rim, such as Tattooine. I see no reason why a Jedi homeworld would be worse than these.

And who pays the bill for relocation to the homeworld?? Surely not the people of the Republic. And what gives the Jedi the right to select a world and claim it for themselves?? Then they would just be engaging in Imperialism themselves. (And Tatooine was not an independent system. It was part of the Republic, represented by Sidrona Diath.) And Independent Systems need a means of government too. On the Jedi's planet, would this be a democratic one open to all inhabitants of the planet? Including those that weren't Jedi??

Evilsbane wrote: »

Of course, Threepio and Artoo were pretty self-aware too so maybe having droid armies is a bit iffy?

Big difference between mechanical sentience and human slaves bred for slaughter.

irishthump wrote: »

Wrong.
The Republic did not create a clone army. This was purely a creation of Palpatine/Sidious.
He put the wheels in motion by posing as Jedi Master Sifo-Dyas and placing an order for the army with the cloners on Kamino.
Then, using the emergency created by the attacks of Dooku's seperatists, he manipulated the Galactic Senate into granting him emergency powers.
After which his first act was to "Create a Grand Army of the Republic".
Without Palpatine's machinations, the clone army would never have come about in the first place.

Whether he did it through deception or not, the Republic, of which Palpatine was a legitimate representative, created, and certainly allowed, this army to be used. If deceipt was involved in this well then he was just using a trait held by many of his colleagues to achieve his ambitions. He isn't the first person to do that. He won't be the last. The Jedi also allowed this, and led these slaves to their deaths.

It comes down to this, the Republic and the Jedi have the blood of every single clone on their hands. What happened was justifiable punishment for two groups as equally corrupt and as blind as each other.

irishthump

evil-monkey wrote: »

Exactly. At least with Dooku what you saw was what you got.

What? He was a Sith Lord masquerading as a seperatist leader... what you saw was NOT what you got!

evil-monkey wrote: »

Whether he did it through deception or not, the Republic, of which Palpatine was a legitimate representative, created, and certainly allowed, this army to be used.

Crap.
The Republic did not allow the Clone Army to be created, in fact a large percentage of Senators were completely opposed to the idea. In the end, Palpatine engineered a situation where he was granted emergency powers. After that happened, he could do what he liked and was not answerable to anybody.

evil-monkey

irishthump wrote: »

What? He was a Sith Lord masquerading as a seperatist leader... what you saw was NOT what you got!

No. He was a Sith Lord leading the Seperatists. He never pretended to be anything that he wasn't. It was common knowledge that he had gone to the Dark Side. Where exactly was the "masquerade"?? He wasn't masquerading as the Seperatist leader. He was the leader.

irishthump wrote: »

Crap.
The Republic did not allow the Clone Army to be created, in fact a large percentage of Senators were completely opposed to the idea. In the end, Palpatine engineered a situation where he was granted emergency powers. After that happened, he could do what he liked and was not answerable to anybody.

And the Jedi were forced to use them were they?? They Senate were forced to go along with it?? They granted him his powers democratically. They didn't have to grant him his emergency powers. But they did, because they were all corrupt morons. And they welcomed his declaration of the creation of a Grand Army with open arms. They didn't care, nor did the Jedi, where this army came from. Yoda had no problem showing up with his army of slaves to save his buddies at Geonosis did he?? The Jedi should have said, "No. We are not using this army of slaves." But they didn't. They used them, and sent vast numbers of them to their deaths. A death they went to without question because they were trained, no, bred, to perform like obedient dogs. Nor did many members of the senate object to its use once it emerged. Whether Palpatine had power or not, mostly everyone else was happy to use the army because it suited themselves to do so.