Heineken Cup Qualification

velocirafter

I just learned over the weekend how the qualification system works for the heineken cup. Connacht can only qualify if they finish higher that ulster because only 3 Irisht teams can qualify.

This strikes me as unfair because 1 irish side is constantly being held back by not being able to compete in the top competition. If qualification was based purely on magners league performance then surely it would improve the quality and importance of the mangers league. At the moment the top 2 scottish teams qualify for the heineken cup so that means that both of their teams automatically qualify.

read more:[HTML]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heineken_cup#Qualification[/HTML]

Peter B

I'm no expert but I thought that had changed so whoever comes 2nd last in the Magners League gets a play off against an italian team and the last place team doesn't qualify. I thought they had removed the country boundries but maybe I am wrong.

sock puppet

That's not true they can also qualify if they finish above the worst Welsh team or win the Challenge Cup. And considering that they usually finish last in the Magners League I don't see what difference changing the qualification rules would make.

dave13

yep. thats how it works. last year there was 4 welsh teams as Connaught finished bottom. this year its looking like it'll be the same.
Connaught are held back by not being able to compete in the magners league, save for a few big performances against the irish performances.

del-boy17

All 4 Irish teams can qualify (as per Welsh this year) if:

Connacht finish above last Welsh team. They will then play Italian 3rd placed team in 24th Heineken Cup playoff game the week after Heineken Cup Final.


Also:

If Connacht win the European Challenge Cup they will win qualification but if one of the Irish teams may lose out if they finish lower that the 4 Welsh Clubs in the Magners League.

velocirafter

Fair enough, wikipedia was lying to me!! I just figured it might be a more realistic aim for Connacht to try and finish 2nd or 3rd last instead of having to overtake Ulster who are doing well enough. There are probably another 10 things stopping Connacht doing well but one thing at a time.

dave13

It actually is in that article, in the same section you linked to.

del-boy17

Velo: on that wiki site:



The remaining two places in the 24-team tournament are allocated as follows:

• One team comes from France, England or Italy; this place is allocated to the country whose team progressed further in the previous season's Heineken Cup.[1] For example, Toulouse have progressed further in the 2007–08 competition than any English or Italian team, so there are seven French teams in the 2008–09 competition.
• The final team is the winner of a play-off between the best placed team in the Magners League who has not already qualified, and the best placed semi-finalist in the Italian Super 10.[1] The play-off is a single match, which takes place alternately in Italy or the home of the Magners League side. In 2007–08, this play-off was scheduled to take place before the Italian Super 10 semi-finals, so no Italian team was nominated to take part. This meant that the Magners League nominee, the Newport Gwent Dragons, qualified without a playoff.

read more: HTML Code:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heineken_cup#Qualification

sock puppet

velocirafter wrote: »

Fair enough, wikipedia was lying to me!! I just figured it might be a more realistic aim for Connacht to try and finish 2nd or 3rd last instead of having to overtake Ulster who are doing well enough. There are probably another 10 things stopping Connacht doing well but one thing at a time.

But what Connacht would gain from competing in the Heineken Cup? What would be the benefit in a 60 point beating from the Toulouse 2nds? And realistically those are the kind of results we'd see. Even Ulster at their lowest point are capable of beating top teams in Europe.

I think funding is a bigger issue for them. For now though, the Challenge Cup is at their level.

amacachi

sock puppet wrote: »

But what Connacht would gain from competing in the Heineken Cup? What would be the benefit in a 60 point beating from the Toulouse 2nds? And realistically those are the kind of results we'd see. Even Ulster at their lowest point are capable of beating top teams in Europe.

I think funding is a bigger issue for them. For now though, the Challenge Cup is at their level.

+1

del-boy17

I think Connacht would gain a lot:

1. The players from Munster, Leinster (duffy, Carr, et al) who go to gain experience at Connacht get to play a higher standard of Rugby. Thus, improving the standard and generating a bigger playing pool for Ireland.

2. They would generat huge gate receipts, increased sponsorship and TV exposure. Galway would be an excellent place to go for a rugby weekend. With this cash connacht would be able to buy some players aka Munster / Leinster (Howlett, Elsom, etc) and strength their team in the weaker positions.

3. Connacht would initally struggle but playing at a higher standard who improve the players and they may be able to form some Magners league challenge in the following years.


4. Connacht would no longer be seen as the feeder club and they may develop some International players which would be great for Irish rugby.


5. Connacht have already shown that they can raise their game (v Munster / Leinster / etc). I know London Irish thumped them twice this season but Irish have been on fire and have also destroyed the cream of the Guinness Permiership this season.


So, I think qualification is the key. It will unlock some of the funding issues and the player retention rate would rise as players would be playing at the highest standard.

sock puppet

del-boy17 wrote: »

I think Connacht would gain a lot:

1. The players from Munster, Leinster (duffy, Carr, et al) who go to gain experience at Connacht get to play a higher standard of Rugby. Thus, improving the standard and generating a bigger playing pool for Ireland.

2. They would generat huge gate receipts, increased sponsorship and TV exposure. Galway would be an excellent place to go for a rugby weekend. With this cash connacht would be able to buy some players aka Munster / Leinster (Howlett, Elsom, etc) and strength their team in the weaker positions.

3. Connacht would initally struggle but playing at a higher standard who improve the players and they may be able to form some Magners league challenge in the following years.


4. Connacht would no longer be seen as the feeder club and they may develop some International players which would be great for Irish rugby.


5. Connacht have already shown that they can raise their game (v Munster / Leinster / etc). I know London Irish thumped them twice this season but Irish have been on fire and have also destroyed the cream of the Guinness Permiership this season.


So, I think qualification is the key. It will unlock some of the funding issues and the player retention rate would rise as players would be playing at the highest standard.

Would it improve their financial situation that much? Edinburgh and Glasgow are hardly rolling in it. And I don't see how you can argue that a team that has won 3 ML games this year needs to play at a higher standard.

I think with more funding Connacht would do a lot better. Look at some of the players Leinster and Munster have brought in like Nacewa and Williams. If you're looking at developing Irish rugby then a new coach would do much more for Connacht than either of these players have for their province. However having said as a Leinster fan it is good to have a player of Nacewa's standard for during the 6Ns etc.

Serenity Now!

del-boy17 wrote: »

I think Connacht would gain a lot:

1. The players from Munster, Leinster (duffy, Carr, et al) who go to gain experience at Connacht get to play a higher standard of Rugby. Thus, improving the standard and generating a bigger playing pool for Ireland.

2. They would generat huge gate receipts, increased sponsorship and TV exposure. Galway would be an excellent place to go for a rugby weekend. With this cash connacht would be able to buy some players aka Munster / Leinster (Howlett, Elsom, etc) and strength their team in the weaker positions.

3. Connacht would initally struggle but playing at a higher standard who improve the players and they may be able to form some Magners league challenge in the following years.

4. Connacht would no longer be seen as the feeder club and they may develop some International players which would be great for Irish rugby.

5. Connacht have already shown that they can raise their game (v Munster / Leinster / etc). I know London Irish thumped them twice this season but Irish have been on fire and have also destroyed the cream of the Guinness Permiership this season.

So, I think qualification is the key. It will unlock some of the funding issues and the player retention rate would rise as players would be playing at the highest standard.

Why do the IRFU deserve to have all four of their provinces in the competition? Answer is simple really: They don't.
If Connacht want to play a higher level of rugby they need to be stringing some wins together and actually challenging for a title be that Challenge Cup or Magners League. Upping the spirits for a game against a rival province is not enough.

Gavin Duffy is actually from Connacht, by the way. He was not brought in 'for the experience' from another province but signed from Harlequins to bolster the Connacht squad.