RECESSION -Depression/Progression for Business

itsonlyme

As we are now in a fully fledged recession how many businesses are closing/opening in Kilkenny.

I have noticed alot of shop units around the city have closed and shop units "For Rent" / "To Let".

Dunnes stores convenience in parliament street, zavvi in mc donagh junction, Anns newsagents in johns st, internet shop in rose inn st, mizzionis pizza in rose inn st (I think) are some notable closures.

sunflower27

I think Sasha is closing. And that discount bookstore on the high st is gone.

ergonomics

But a new shop opened beside Esquire's Coffee and also across from The Book Shop.

The Dunnes on Parliament closed way before any talk of the Recession.

sunflower27

What about Lombardi's. That closed didnt it? I think there is a new restaurant there now.

brettmirl

Lombardi's changed ownership as far as I know.

Sasha is closed alright.

Stephen

I think the entire Sasha chain around the country went belly up.

Hobart

As posted before, I have a business in Rose Inn Street. It's been a very very tough start to the year, and we are literally working week to week on it. Short term (next 3 months) we will be fine, but long term is the huge unknown.

We have had to let some staff go, and cut some staff hours, but by and large the staff have been a huge help to us, and it's probably only through them and their love of the place, that we are open still.

The one (unfortunate) thing that has helped us is the fact that quite a number of our direct competitors have closed in recent times. I know how hard it is to start a business, and I can imagine the pain of losing one, so I don't wish ill will on these people or their businesses, and they have my sympathy, but the fact is that it has been a factor in allowing us to stay trading.

Hopefully, St Pats weekend will be some sort of a watershed, and the town will be begin to pick up onto and into the Summer.

catbear

we may have a clearer picture sooner than paddys day, the gov are floating a bond issue on friday to raise money to run the country on a day to day basis, that includes it's stake in the banks.
if it fails, it will snowball across europe taking greece, portugal, italy and spain too.
this sounds drastic but it's actually a positive thing as it will force the ECB to float a recovery bond, not unlike the US stimulus package.
the interesting thing for us here in Kilkenny is the terms of any recovery bond issued. it's not like Lisbon where we can pretend it's different the second time round. the gov will have to take it or go bankrupt, which in turn may create mass demonstrations and at worst massive civil disorder.
the terms of the bond would involve funding for only essentials, paycuts to levels that are sustainable in the medium term.
the whole banking system will be nationalised as the government is incapable of restoring any confidence, the bad debts (defaulted mortgages, developer loans) will be bundled and sold off - expect houses to be sold at auction for knock down prices.
the whole idea is to stimulate activity, allowing banks to fail is an essential part of this. tax money that could be better used by the consumer, is instead been directed towards keeping house prices at inflated levels.
this does nobody any good, the consumer, the seller in debt and the businesses that are starved of cash that is been used to pay down debt to banks that are essentially defunct but are only been kept on life support for reasons known only to the government.
this may all kick off friday but if not, any body got anyother ideas?

Hobart

catbear wrote: »

we may have a clearer picture sooner than paddys day, the gov are floating a bond issue on friday to raise money to run the country on a day to day basis, that includes it's stake in the banks.

I've an idea. Use capital letters at the start of your sentences. Try not to talk about things that you know very little about, for example the Government has been issuing loan bonds since Oct last year, there is no way that they are going to issue a dramatic amount this Friday.

if it fails, it will snowball across europe taking greece, portugal, italy and spain too.

If what fails? They will issue (or so you say) what could fail? The printing press?

this sounds drastic but it's actually a positive thing as it will force the ECB to float a recovery bond, not unlike the US stimulus package.

Actually coughing, I'm laughing so much.

the interesting thing for us here in Kilkenny is the terms of any recovery bond issued. it's not like Lisbon where we can pretend it's different the second time round. the gov will have to take it or go bankrupt, which in turn may create mass demonstrations and at worst massive civil disorder.
the terms of the bond would involve funding for only essentials, paycuts to levels that are sustainable in the medium term.

Lol. The interesting thing for KK is that there is nothing interesting about it, for KK. But wait.....no. nothing.

the whole banking system will be nationalised as the government is incapable of restoring any confidence, the bad debts (defaulted mortgages, developer loans) will be bundled and sold off - expect houses to be sold at auction for knock down prices.
the whole idea is to stimulate activity, allowing banks to fail is an essential part of this. tax money that could be better used by the consumer, is instead been directed towards keeping house prices at inflated levels.
this does nobody any good, the consumer, the seller in debt and the businesses that are starved of cash that is been used to pay down debt to banks that are essentially defunct but are only been kept on life support for reasons known only to the government.
this may all kick off friday but if not, any body got anyother ideas?

La de da...de da..

fabbydabby

As regards the first post, those mentioned are quite fickle businesses and often tend to be a flash in the pan, regardless of economic stability, so are not a good indicator of economic success. Also, and like somebody said earlier Little Dunne's has been gone years.

The reason we in Kilkenny appear not to have been totally leaned over and rodgered black and blue by the economy as it stands is that we are effectively devoid of industry, except for glanbia and a handful of manufacturing SME's in and around the town.

We have nothing like the likes of Waterford and Clonmel does industry-wise. We don't have the SR Technics and Waterford Crystals to ruffle anyone's feathers job-wise, we have no militant strike action, just a steady stream of job losses, down scaling and resentment in the services sector (which is a major employer in the town) and frustration and disgruntlement from the smaller business man, as we can quite clearly see from the tone of Hobart's last post.

I am involved in manufacturing and we're also on the breadline, depending on some large contracts to keep afloat. But we are getting shafted by english companies in the same game because of the weak sterling.

Stroke Politics

fabbydabby wrote: »

As regards the first post, those mentioned are quite fickle businesses and often tend to be a flash in the pan, regardless of economic stability, so are not a good indicator of economic success. Also, and like somebody said earlier Little Dunne's has been gone years.

The reason we in Kilkenny appear not to have been totally leaned over and rodgered black and blue by the economy as it stands is that we are effectively devoid of industry, except for glanbia and a handful of manufacturing SME's in and around the town.

We have nothing like the likes of Waterford and Clonmel does industry-wise. We don't have the SR Technics and Waterford Crystals to ruffle anyone's feathers job-wise, we have no militant strike action, just a steady stream of job losses, down scaling and resentment in the services sector (which is a major employer in the town) and frustration and disgruntlement from the smaller business man, as we can quite clearly see from the tone of Hobart's last post.

I am involved in manufacturing and we're also on the breadline, depending on some large contracts to keep afloat. But we are getting shafted by english companies in the same game because of the weak sterling.

As an blow-in from the wild wesht who lived in Kilkenny for a number of years, I would have to agree with much of this post. I was amazed that there was no major services/manufacturing employer in the city,until B365 and VHI came as well. I noticed a lot of smaller craft, technical and engineering firms, particularly outside of ther city, much more so that in Galway, a city with two 3rd level institutions.

I think that this, and the tourism economy has insulated KK a bit from the worst of the downturn, all the eggs ain't in the one basket. Or maybe, because there are so many smaller employers, their closures aren't reported? Yes/No?

catbear

you're right hobart, they have been issuing bonds and up to now they have been taken. however irish bonds currently carry the biggest repayment in the eurozone because of the risk of default.
thus the problem with friday is not the amount been floated but if nobody bites.
and as for not talking about things we know nothing about but will have to pay for for many years ahead, i'd imagine you'd be more concerned about the cost to your wallet than my lack of capital letters.
i know Cowan would rather we didn't talk about things we didn't understand, the poor plain people. no debt that anyone has to pay should be beyond their understanding, otherwise they are doomed to repeat it.
so let's have it Hobart, what do you know that's missing from my post.
you mock and jeer but don't correct or enlighten or offer an alternative.
set me straight, how will this government deal with the rest of the irish banks and thus bond market confidence in Ireland?
so what's your idea?

femur61

I drove past Hebron where the social welfare office and the amount of people getting the dole was scarey. There are loads of shops shutting down, I thinnk with internet shopping people are finding chearper music online, clothes ect.

ztoical

catbear wrote: »

what do you know that's missing from my post.

Capital letters?

Hobart

catbear wrote: »

you're right hobart, they have been issuing bonds and up to now they have been taken. however irish bonds currently carry the biggest repayment in the eurozone because of the risk of default.
thus the problem with friday is not the amount been floated but if nobody bites.
and as for not talking about things we know nothing about but will have to pay for for many years ahead, i'd imagine you'd be more concerned about the cost to your wallet than my lack of capital letters.
i know Cowan would rather we didn't talk about things we didn't understand, the poor plain people. no debt that anyone has to pay should be beyond their understanding, otherwise they are doomed to repeat it.
so let's have it Hobart, what do you know that's missing from my post.
you mock and jeer but don't correct or enlighten or offer an alternative.
set me straight, how will this government deal with the rest of the irish banks and thus bond market confidence in Ireland?
so what's your idea?

Probably not for this forum, but I'll address your points.

Irish Government bonds currently carry a yield of between 4.73 and 5.65 per cent, while those in Germany yield between 2.27 and 2.6 per cent. Some form of differential has always been there despite the Celtic Tiger/Euro etc... i.e. Irish Government bonds have always been more expensive than those of our bigger EU partners, and the reasons for that are quite simple. Fiscal. Of course risk will always dictate the price of the insurance, but we are a million miles from the likes of Iceland (with rates as high as 24% in some institutions) and the chances of default, given the twin insulation of the EU and the Euro (while not impossible) are quite remote. My point on the bonds is, if they are issued they will be taken up by financial institutions, there will be no question of nobody "biting".

A bit like any loan, it has to be paid back. That is not to say that we will be walking around barefoot and hungry. Like a lot of people, I lived/worked/emigrated through some of the biggest recessions we have had in recent times. I was around when politicians were telling us to tighten our belts, while my parents payed 15% interest rate on a mortgage and the unemployment rate was 1 in 6. What is the common factor in all of these recessions? Borrowing. We have always borrowed, and we have always paid back. Always. Look at our current credit rating. Standard and Poors recently downgraded our international rating, because our current net-debt to GDP stands at 31% (and probably rising) when as recently as 2008 it stood at 20%. So that's the actual issue. That's why it's costing us more to pay back what we are borrowing, we don't have as much money as we did have. And when the country starts generating more output, we don't have the tax payers to eat quickly enough into that debt, given that we have a population of around 4M while Germany has a population of 80M+. As an aside, our credit rating is the same as that in the US.

You also mention the US Stimulus package, which on paper looks good. Well funded, well targeted. It does appear however, that the boys in charge in the US have slightly missed the boat on a coupe of things, and there is also a gaping hole in the package. I'll address the hole first. The package had 3 main targets for stimulus:

1) Tax rebates
2) Tax incentives for businesses
3) Mortgage relief for those in trouble

In order for tax rebates to have any effect, you must have people working. The bill was specifically targeted at those on the low to middle income level, which, as it happened, was the one area who were hardest hit. You cannot get a rebate, unless you are (or were recently) working, and this measure will only have a limited effect on dwindling numbers.

The mortgage relief, was targeted at those in trouble, but specifically those who had mortgages with government-sponsored enterprises (e.g. Freddie Mac), it does not apply to all those millions currently in default on their mortgage payments in the US.

And now for the biggest hole (this is my opinion btw). I feel that in order to start stimulating something, it is fairly important to have something to stimulate (sounds obvious!!). The US has been the hardest hit (so far) in this global downturn, with the warning signs been felt as early as spring 2007. The bill only got through the House of Reps last month. It's too late for most businesses in the US, far too late.

You also ask how the Government deal with the banks. I think it's fairly obvious what is going to happen in the short to medium term. All the banks will be nationalised, and for varying terms. I don't think the government, nor the voters tbh, want a situation whereby they are nationalised ad-infinitum, but I strongly believe it will happen.

I also think that the major banks have to reveal their positions in relation to bad debts. They have been woeful in terms of their openness, and this is a major in factor in the lack of confidence in our banking institutions, and goes a long way to address your initial point in relation to the yields on bonds at the moment. There has to be a root and branch clear out of our banking and financial institutions. Clear them all out. I don't particularly care if they are prosecuted of out in stocks to be honest, but they demonstrated that they are totally incapable of running banks, and the they have also demonstrated that they cannot be self-regulating.

If those couple of steps are taken, it will begin to restore confidence in our banking systems, and it will make a huge difference.

We as citizens, also have to begin some real radical thinking in relation to our lifestyles and expectations. And I mean really radical, but that definately is a conversation for another forum.

catbear

thanks Hobart,
the bond issuance went off so i was wrong.
http://www.ntma.ie/Publications/2009/4_billion_Treasury_Bond_Press_Release.pdf
55% was bought by Irish institutions.
anglo loaned money to ten who in turn spent that money on anglo shares.
could there something similar going on with the bonds buyers?
i believe it's just postponing the inevitable.
printing more money may sound like an easy option but don't forget that resistance will come from european savers who do not want their savings eroded and would only invest on their terms.
in previous recessions it was called a credit strike, even money can refuse to co-operate.
i believe economics will surpass politics in bringing about ever greater union.
i don't see why this shouldn't be discussed in any regional forum, it affects all of us.
i too went through recessions of varying length, here and abroad but the speed of what is going on here is frightening.
Kilkenny, like many places is been hammered.
it was depressing to see that dole line on the Hebron road, at least they don't do cash. when the dole office was in the barracks it was frequently robbed.
post offices seem to be taking the brunt of it now.

Hobart

catbear wrote: »

55% was bought by Irish institutions.
anglo loaned money to ten who in turn spent that money on anglo shares.
could there something similar going on with the bonds buyers?

No. Definately not. It's quite obvious why 55% were taken up locally. Funds. Be they credit or pension. These are guaranteed returns, so it's a bit of a no-brainer for those funds, which have been hammered. Believe me, these will subsequently be geared by the end of next year by these funds.

i believe it's just postponing the inevitable.
printing more money may sound like an easy option but don't forget that resistance will come from european savers who do not want their savings eroded and would only invest on their terms.

This is what I do not understand. What inevitable? Spell it out. What's the worst that can happen? Default? (highly unlikely as it would cause a huge ripple effect on the Euro). Devaluation? (unlikely as it would mean we withdraw from the SEC). Bankruptcy? (again unlikely given our membership in the EU and our currency). So whats left? You tell me.

in previous recessions it was called a credit strike, even money can refuse to co-operate.

We had an used the devaluation option, which we do not have today. Couple that with the weak Sterling, and you arrive at where we are at.

i believe economics will surpass politics in bringing about ever greater union.

I agree. But I also believe (and this is not an accusation btw) that barstoll, mis-informed, opinion as fact type doomsday scenarios will only lead to a huge exacerbation of the issue, and erode consumer confidence even more, leading to an even steeper hill to climb.

i too went through recessions of varying length, here and abroad but the speed of what is going on here is frightening.
Kilkenny, like many places is been hammered.
it was depressing to see that dole line on the Hebron road, at least they don't do cash. when the dole office was in the barracks it was frequently robbed.

We had further to fall than any previous "Celtic" generation, hence the depth of the recession and the feeling amongst the general public.

What we need to do, is to bond as a nation. Work through it, no matter what is fired at us, and try, as best as we can, to be positive about it. Think about how David Cameron's family is feeling right now, and you will see where I'm coming from.

catbear

hi Hobart.
erode consumer confidence?
it's a fact that individuals are going broke on a daily basis due to their overexposure to the property bubble.
it's a fact that in Kilkenny two years ago there was around 200 properties for sale on the daft website, today there are 1100 properties looking for fewer buyers.
what will it be like in a few more months?
http://daftwatch.atspace.com/daftcounty_11.html
now this is my opinion but it could be a fact that we got too greedy and built too many houses on the notion that each property other than the one we lived in could be cashed in for more than we paid, as you said about the bonds, it was a no-brainer.
there is a good proportion of these investors who will go bankrupt and with banks nationalised, then it will be all our problem.
the consumer of the last ten years is broke and increasingly unemployed.

how can a consumer or investor have confidence in a society where the government in charge protects a few at the expense of everyone else. a government that has for ten years done everything it could to pump up this property mania, ignoring 100% mortgages, burying the Bacon reports, setting up countless committees with no powers but huge expenses.

now tell me, am i misinformed or am i just imagining all that?

you only debase yourself when you pigeon hole posters (barstool) who may be looking at the same problem facing society but from a different backround. not a good approach if you want this nation to "Bond", it might not want to bond with you.

i have no idea how Europe as a whole will deal with debt, Silvio Berlusconi wants to give anyone who is unemployed a year off from paying their mortgage, how's he going to fund that, Bonds?
whatever happens, i doubt that the EU we know today will be the same two years hence.

if you find these views so funny that you nearly fall off your chair laughing, then take your chair and yourself down to the Hebron Road Welfare Office on signing day and laugh at people who try to understand how after all their hard work they are now unemployed for the first time and also at risk of losing their homes. i'd like you to tell them to "have confidence" for the nations sake, confidence has been betrayed and it's a mountain to climb to regain trust. insulting people does not create trust.

Hobart

catbear wrote: »

hi Hobart.
erode consumer confidence?

If you are going to quote me, please quote me in full, it gives a skewed interpretation of what I am saying if you mis-quote me. I actually said that it would erode consumer confidence even more.

it's a fact that individuals are going broke on a daily basis due to their overexposure to the property bubble.

It's a fact that people are going broke for overstretching themselves. Whether that is the banks fault for not properly stress testing these individuals or if it is down to the individuals over stretching themselves is another issue, but both are going to have to take a hit on it. It's unfortunate, but a fact.

it's a fact that in Kilkenny two years ago there was around 200 properties for sale on the daft website, today there are 1100 properties looking for fewer buyers.
what will it be like in a few more months?

Welcome to the market economy and the theory of supply and demand.

now this is my opinion but it could be a fact that we got too greedy and built too many houses on the notion that each property other than the one we lived in could be cashed in for more than we paid, as you said about the bonds, it was a no-brainer.

Again, supply and demand. If the demand is high, the price is high, if the demand is low, the price is low. Market economy, it's how things work in most democracies.

there is a good proportion of these investors who will go bankrupt and with banks nationalised, then it will be all our problem.
the consumer of the last ten years is broke and increasingly unemployed.

They probably will, but there are mechanisms in place to allow for that. If the banks are nationalised, then it will become our issue. But with AIB announcing their 1B profit this morning, and allowing for a provision of 1.8B write down this year, it would appear that they have the business model to deal with it in the short term.

I disagree that the consumer of the last 10 years is broke. There are many many people out there who got nothing out of the so called Tiger economy. There are also those who were prudent in terms of what they did with their "extra income" and there were some who speculated with huge borrowings. It's the latter group of people who will suffer most, especially those who speculated small time on the property bubble, and are feeling the pinch now. The likes of the Sean Dunnes of this world were clever enough to structure their mega investments in such a way that the banks got paid on (if) completion, and they are sitting ok at the moment.

how can a consumer or investor have confidence in a society where the government in charge protects a few at the expense of everyone else. a government that has for ten years done everything it could to pump up this property mania, ignoring 100% mortgages, burying the Bacon reports, setting up countless committees with no powers but huge expenses.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that we should have confidence in a government which has mismanaged the economy, and even worse, has clearly no idea how to get us out of this mess. Where is anybody suggesting this?

now tell me, am i misinformed or am i just imagining all that?

Based on your previous postings, a bit of both. You clattered into this thread like the spawn of Chicken Little and Frazer from Dad's army saying were all doomed. Talking about bond issue's failing, countries going bankrupt and civil unrest in Kilkenny. From an imagination perspective, you've already seen that the bond issue was quickly taken up (in fact it was oversubscribed) and you frittered from pillar to post without offering any tangible reason why you think we are all doomed, nor have you actually given your opinion as to what measures are needed to get us out of this mess. So, what's going to get us out of tis mess? You tell me, I've asked you already.

you only debase yourself when you pigeon hole posters (barstool) who may be looking at the same problem facing society but from a different backround. not a good approach if you want this nation to "Bond", it might not want to bond with you.

I pigeonhole those who are misinformed, and who's main priority seems to be, in situations like this seems to be twofold:

1) Telling us how were all f**ked
2) Trying to apportion blame for why we are all f**ked, while sitting around doing nothing about it.

Like I say, there are those who talk and those who do. If the proverbial hits the fan, and I have a choice to make, I know which group of people I'll be backing.

i have no idea how Europe as a whole will deal with debt, Silvio Berlusconi wants to give anyone who is unemployed a year off from paying their mortgage, how's he going to fund that, Bonds?

I dunno, ask him. Probably, either that or some sort of EU bailout.

whatever happens, i doubt that the EU we know today will be the same two years hence.

Here we go again, you say something will radically change, and yet you offer no alternative to what it will change to, nor why it will change. You just come out with these open-ended statements that make no sense, nor do they offer a solution.

if you find these views so funny that you nearly fall off your chair laughing,

Did I say that? Did I actually say I find this funny? Where?

then take your chair and yourself down to the Hebron Road Welfare Office on signing day and laugh at people who try to understand how after all their hard work they are now unemployed for the first time and also at risk of losing their homes. i'd like you to tell them to "have confidence" for the nations sake, confidence has been betrayed and it's a mountain to climb to regain trust. insulting people does not create trust.

I tell you what. If I had the time, between running a business, trying to keep 7 other individuals employed and trying to hold down a 9 -5 as well, I would not spend belittling other people.

I have 1 day off every week, Monday, to try and spend with my kids after school. I have not taken a single penny out of my business in 11 months, while all of my staff have been paid in full, as have my suppliers. What have you done? What are you doing to try and help this place, except murdering the English language. Don't you come on here using emotive terminology like you do above, while trying to twist this argument one way or the other. Get out and do something about it, like most decent people are, propose or work on some solutions, or else, just shut up.

EKRIUQ

What I thing that’s killing the local economy and probably nationwide is the uncertainty in the market place. Kilkenny won’t be as affected as other large towns due to the comparative lack of large industries with the exception of construction but that not stopping Kilkenny people playing their part in the recession.

People have money and a lot of people aren’t as affected by the downturn as much as others but they still decide to stay at home and spend little as their job could be on the line in the months to come and with the media trying to plaint of picture doom and gloom this perspective isn’t going to change soon. I’ve two business and the slow down has hit both but what can I do only try to keep going as best I can and make a couple of hard decisions on the way

Hobart

EKRIUQ wrote: »

What I thing that’s killing the local economy and probably nationwide is the uncertainty in the market place. Kilkenny won’t be as affected as other large towns due to the comparative lack of large industries with the exception of construction but that not stopping Kilkenny people playing their part in the recession.

People have money and a lot of people aren’t as affected by the downturn as much as others but they still decide to stay at home and spend little as their job could be on the line in the months to come and with the media trying to plaint of picture doom and gloom this perspective isn’t going to change soon. I’ve two business and the slow down has hit both but what can I do only try to keep going as best I can and make a couple of hard decisions on the way

I could not have put it better myself. It's exactly about confidence, not just in things like the Government, country, credit crunch, bank et-al, the most important thing to the ordinary citizen is the solidity of their own existence.

Those who spout on about things they know very little about, will only add that the mire that is the lack of confidence. It is possible to talk this thing down to something it's not, but I'll leave that to the nay sayers.

In some ways a recession/depression can be good for businesses.

Threadhead

Hobart wrote: »

If you are going to quote me, please quote me in full, it gives a skewed interpretation of what I am saying if you mis-quote me. I actually said that it would erode consumer confidence even more.
It's a fact that people are going broke for overstretching themselves. Whether that is the banks fault for not properly stress testing these individuals or if it is down to the individuals over stretching themselves is another issue, but both are going to have to take a hit on it. It's unfortunate, but a fact.
Welcome to the market economy and the theory of supply and demand.

Again, supply and demand. If the demand is high, the price is high, if the demand is low, the price is low. Market economy, it's how things work in most democracies.
They probably will, but there are mechanisms in place to allow for that. If the banks are nationalised, then it will become our issue. But with AIB announcing their 1B profit this morning, and allowing for a provision of 1.8B write down this year, it would appear that they have the business model to deal with it in the short term.

I disagree that the consumer of the last 10 years is broke. There are many many people out there who got nothing out of the so called Tiger economy. There are also those who were prudent in terms of what they did with their "extra income" and there were some who speculated with huge borrowings. It's the latter group of people who will suffer most, especially those who speculated small time on the property bubble, and are feeling the pinch now. The likes of the Sean Dunnes of this world were clever enough to structure their mega investments in such a way that the banks got paid on (if) completion, and they are sitting ok at the moment.

I don't think anybody is suggesting that we should have confidence in a government which has mismanaged the economy, and even worse, has clearly no idea how to get us out of this mess. Where is anybody suggesting this?

Based on your previous postings, a bit of both. You clattered into this thread like the spawn of Chicken Little and Frazer from Dad's army saying were all doomed. Talking about bond issue's failing, countries going bankrupt and civil unrest in Kilkenny. From an imagination perspective, you've already seen that the bond issue was quickly taken up (in fact it was oversubscribed) and you frittered from pillar to post without offering any tangible reason why you think we are all doomed, nor have you actually given your opinion as to what measures are needed to get us out of this mess. So, what's going to get us out of tis mess? You tell me, I've asked you already.

I pigeonhole those who are misinformed, and who's main priority seems to be, in situations like this seems to be twofold:

1) Telling us how were all f**ked
2) Trying to apportion blame for why we are all f**ked, while sitting around doing nothing about it.

Like I say, there are those who talk and those who do. If the proverbial hits the fan, and I have a choice to make, I know which group of people I'll be backing.

I dunno, ask him. Probably, either that or some sort of EU bailout.
Here we go again, you say something will radically change, and yet you offer no alternative to what it will change to, nor why it will change. You just come out with these open-ended statements that make no sense, nor do they offer a solution.

Did I say that? Did I actually say I find this funny? Where?I tell you what. If I had the time, between running a business, trying to keep 7 other individuals employed and trying to hold down a 9 -5 as well, I would not spend belittling other people.

I have 1 day off every week, Monday, to try and spend with my kids after school. I have not taken a single penny out of my business in 11 months, while all of my staff have been paid in full, as have my suppliers. What have you done? What are you doing to try and help this place, except murdering the English language. Don't you come on here using emotive terminology like you do above, while trying to twist this argument one way or the other. Get out and do something about it, like most decent people are, propose or work on some solutions, or else, just shut up.

Apologies for going off the subject but this is the most irritating form of internet bully: One who comes onto a forum and belittles someone else's use of the English language or criticizes them because they don't use capital letters. Is there any particular reason for such pointed bully boy behaviour?

You spelt barstool wrong. 'tis'...? Surely you mean 'this'? And there's an apostrophe in we're. Not were. Your posts are not lacking in misspelling and bad grammar. If you're so inclined to criticize others then there's no reason why the same shouldn't be done to you.

Please don't mistake the above for emotive terminology. I have very much enjoyed how well informed the above conversation has been. You obviously know what you're talking about. But it's still no excuse for acting like a twat on a public forum.

pueblo

Threadhead wrote: »

Please don't mistake the above for emotive terminology. I have very much enjoyed how well informed the above conversation has been. You obviously know what you're talking about. But it's still no excuse for acting like a twat on a public forum.

Well said Threadhead, you got there before me. I joined specifically to object to the childish bullying by Hobart.

Hobart you would do well to heed the words of Jim Rohn, though he is talking about leadership i think the principles hold true for most things in life.

"The challenge of leadership is to be strong but not rude; be kind but not weak; be bold but not bully; be thoughtful but not lazy; be humble but not timid; be proud but not arrogant; have humor without folly"

Also, seeing as this is my first post I would like to say hello to everyone, it's nice to be here.

Peace
Pueblo

manus30

what an absolute banker. a shining example to us all as a moderator....

Hobart

Threadhead wrote: »

Apologies for going off the subject but this is the most irritating form of internet bully: One who comes onto a forum and belittles someone else's use of the English language or criticizes them because they don't use capital letters. Is there any particular reason for such pointed bully boy behaviour?

You spelt barstool wrong. 'tis'...? Surely you mean 'this'? And there's an apostrophe in we're. Not were. Your posts are not lacking in misspelling and bad grammar. If you're so inclined to criticize others then there's no reason why the same shouldn't be done to you.

Please don't mistake the above for emotive terminology. I have very much enjoyed how well informed the above conversation has been. You obviously know what you're talking about. But it's still no excuse for acting like a twat on a public forum.

Bullying? Firstly, I was not the only person to pull this poster up on his writing style. Secondly, it you use sentences, paragraphs and some form of structure, it makes your message a bit clearer.

Finally, this guy totally misrepresents what I have actually said, invites me to drive past some dole queues laughing at people, and I'm the bad guy for pulling him up on his posting style? Nice to see the focus exactly where it should be.

As for Jim Rohn, I think he also said "Let others lead small lives, but not you. Let others argue over small things, but not you. Let others cry over small hurts, but not you. Let others leave their future in someone else's hands, but not you". Peace etc....

pueblo

Hobart wrote: »

As for Jim Rohn, I think he also said "Let others lead small lives, but not you. Let others argue over small things, but not you. Let others cry over small hurts, but not you. Let others leave their future in someone else's hands, but not you". Peace etc....

"Let others argue over small things, but not you....."

I think you have made my point superbly Hobart.

Peace and love ;-)
Pueblo

Hobart

pueblo wrote: »

"Let others argue over small things, but not you....."

I think you have made my point superbly Hobart.

Peace and love ;-)
Pueblo

And I'm glad you got mine!!

pueblo

Hobart wrote: »

And I'm glad you got mine!!

Quite frankly I am amazed at our conflict resolution skills.

Peace
Pueblo

PhilipMarlowe

If you have something to say about someone come out and say it, don't hide behind euphemisms.

Hobart

It would be very easy to snap at the bait, but I'm not going to.

pueblo

Hobart wrote: »

It would be very easy to snap at the bait, but I'm not going to.

For a well seasoned pro like you? easy