2 questions?

First question,why do I never see any shoulder barges in super league,they seem commonplace in the nrl??

And second question,how do you think a union team would get on against a super league team playing league?

Say a leinster team of:

1-Kearney
2-Fitzgerald
3-O'Driscoll
4-Darcy
5-Nacewa
6-Contepomi
7-Keogh
8-Healy
9-Jennings
10-O'Brien
11-Elsom
12-Horgan
13-Heaslip

Took on a super league team?
Personally I dont see why they couldnt give them a good game,but I could be hugely ignorant as to how difficult it would to adapt.

amacachi

They are around now and then, can't say I know why there aren't as many in the SL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_rugby_league_and_rugby_union#Cross-code_games

Historically League teams always would've had the upper hand, however in the years since Union turned professional it will certainly have gotten closer. I would love to see a series between even the Guinness Premiership and SL champs, with fixture congestion etc I wouldn't hold my breath.

Historically they were much fitter.Apparently a game was played in 1997 or something between bath and wigan I think and in the game played with league rules the league team ran amuck,bath won the union rules game.

From watching super league anyway,the backs are nowhere near as talented as their union counterparts.

The only players ive seen that I thought would be supersars are sonny bill williams,who moved and is not doing so good and Billy Slater who would be unbelievable in union for sure.

amacachi

From the link I posted:

In May 1996, Bath Rugby and Wigan RLFC, who were then England's top union and league sides respectively, made history by playing against each other at both codes of rugby. The first match was at Maine Road, Manchester and was played under league rules. Wigan beat Bath 82-6; then two weeks later the return match was held at Twickenham Stadium under union rules. The result this time: Bath 44, Wigan 19.

Not sure where you're getting the idea of the backs not being as talented as their counterparts in Union. There's some forwards in League who would hold their own as a back in League. How often do ya see someone in League gettin stopped by a single man tackle compared to Union? :P

The backs general skill level is less.

There seem to be alot of backs in league who are just bosh merchants and offer little else.

amacachi

Why did you post this if you're sure that the backs are better and since it's obvious it would take a lot for League forwards to play Union? I sniff a troll.

Players have converted from League to Union more often and with greater mainstream success than vice-versa from my limited knowledge. The speed and power of League backs is above that of Union backs IMO, the game is played a lot flatter giving less time for complicated set-pieces.

amacachi

amacachi wrote: »

Why did you post this if you're sure that the backs are better and since it's obvious it would take a lot for League forwards to play Union? I sniff a troll.

Players have converted from League to Union more often and with greater mainstream success than vice-versa from my limited knowledge. The speed and power of League backs is above that of Union backs IMO, the game is played a lot flatter giving less time for complicated set-pieces.

Im not a troll,nearly all my posts are in the union forum.

Im really waiting for an answer from Toomevera,as he seems to be the only person in this forum who actually knows anything about league.

You still didnt answer the original question,as to what the outcome would be.

amacachi

Who would win in a game of League? I'd be surprised if any Union team would beat any of the top 10 SL teams, and the other 4 would definitely beat the team you named. You don't need to know a lot about a sport to know that it's a different sport to another one :P

I would tend to agree.

I was just interested after watching a super league game because although the games are different I think the player could adapt.

It definitely would not result in the scoreline that the game your article mentioned,70 point difference I think.(under the league rules)

That game took place when Union was still basically amatuer and the players are uncomparable nowadays.

amacachi

Hard to gauge completely from your post, but a lot of people seem to have the view that League is somehow an inferior game, which tends to colour their view of it.

I wish I could get a report from that match in 1996, I'd wager quite a few points came at the end. However I would say the gap would still be 40/50 points, simply because of the difference in the speed of play etc.

If only there was a way for us to know :P

toomevara

I watch League and Union religiously. Obviously, I prefer league. In terms of skill levels among the backs, there is no comparison. League backs possess skills, strength and game reading capabilities which are rarely seen in all but the best union players. Guys like shane Williams, BOD, Poitrenaud, Rob Kearney, Keith Earls would make the grade in top-level league, most of the rest would struggle.

Your average League 3/4 can break and fix a line with greater alacrity and ease than their union counterparts and their support lines and angles of running are generally on a different plane, which is often why I find watching a game of union massively frustrating.

Contrary to common misconception among union fans who rarely watch league and when they do, don't know enough about it to grasp its massive subtlety, there are very few bash merchants in the 13 man code backline...its all about off-loading/support lines, hard running and hitting defensive lines at angles.

As for inter code matches, its happened more often than you might think. On the 23rd Jan 1943 (with the war, the union authorities were not as draconian as usual) a match was played between army rugby league and army rugby union teams at Headingley in leeds under union rules...the league team won 18-11.

In Bradford in '44, a combined services League side beat a combined services union side 15-10, again under union laws.

In 1996 Wigan and Bath, then the top sides in their respective codes played the 'cross code challenge'. In the league encounter, Wigan won by an eye-watering 82-6, while in the union encounter Bath won by a less impressive 44-19.

Wigan also entered the middlesex sevens that year where they trounced all union sides they came up against, finally beating a wasps side captained by lawrence dallaglio 38-15 in front of 61,000 fans...Strangely enough they've never been asked back:D

Paul Tergat

Aubree Dead Mechanic wrote: »

First question,why do I never see any shoulder barges in super league,they seem commonplace in the nrl??

And second question,how do you think a union team would get on against a super league team playing league?

Is a shoulder charge of sorts - any excuse to show this from Sam Burgess:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFV6G0QKF3E


A union team would not beat a league team in a league one off match. No doubt that given time the union players could adapt and be good but the same can be said to union converts.

Aubree Dead Mechanic wrote: »

Im really waiting for an answer from Toomevera,as he seems to be the only person in this forum who actually knows anything about league.

I don't really post in RL much:pac: too quiet for my liking!

toomevara

p_larkin99 wrote: »

Is a shoulder charge of sorts - any excuse to show this from Sam Burgess:


I don't really post in RL much:pac: too quiet for my liking!

Well, if we all take that attitude...sigh:p

amacachi

p_larkin99 wrote: »

Is a shoulder charge of sorts - any excuse to show this from Sam Burgess:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFV6G0QKF3E

That and Wiki in the NRL finals last year are two of my favorite ever youtube videos :P

Would be nice to get a bit more traffic in here, I was away over the weekend but I'm gonna try and have a thread every weekend for the SL matches.

d'Oracle

Nacewa probably played both as a young fella.....

Thats about all I can contribute.

Paul Tergat

amacachi wrote: »

That and Wiki in the NRL finals last year are two of my favorite ever youtube videos :P

Would be nice to get a bit more traffic in here, I was away over the weekend but I'm gonna try and have a thread every weekend for the SL matches.

OK well i'll do my best to contribute in those threads then. Still will be very hard for this forum to take off though imo.

People just don't know true rugby :pac:


(and come on England in the 6N - watching in Dublin all my Irish mates in a pub, should be fun!!)

toomevara

toomevara wrote: »

In terms of skill levels among the backs, there is no comparison. League backs possess skills, strength and game reading capabilities which are rarely seen in all but the best union players. Guys like shane Williams, BOD, Poitrenaud, Rob Kearney, Keith Earls would make the grade in top-level league, most of the rest would struggle.

Thams for the reply.

I dont agree with this bit though,I think there are alot more union players that could play league and be top notch.

Henson,Roberts,Byrne,Jauzion,darcy,Murphy etc could all make a succcess in league imo,some might have to put on a bit of weight.

Also if you look at players like vainakolo and Toquiri who are both league converts,they are both ****.

Rocky elsom played league,he is world class,I cant think of many other modern day league converts that have been world class in union.

Have there been any union to league converts that have been class?

Ive been dissapointed with Sonny Bill.

toomevara

p_larkin99 wrote: »

OK well i'll do my best to contribute in those threads then. Still will be very hard for this forum to take off though imo.

People just don't know true rugby :pac:


(and come on England in the 6N - watching in Dublin all my Irish mates in a pub, should be fun!!)

Heading over from Leeds meself to catch the game....Look forward to your contribution on here (even if you are from bradford *pinches nose and cocks a snook*:D)

Aubree Dead Mechanic wrote: »

Thams for the reply.

A pleasure Goose...

Aubree Dead Mechanic wrote:

I dont agree with this bit though,I think there are alot more union players that could play league and be top notch.

Henson,Roberts,Byrne,Jauzion,darcy,Murphy etc could all make a succcess in league imo,some might have to put on a bit of weight.

Agree with all of the above. Was only giving a rough example (except Henson, too pretty;)... Make sure you watch the world club challenge this weekend. SL champions Leeds V NRL champs Manly Sea Eagles at Elland Road. Come on the Rhinos!!

toomevara

Aubree Dead Mechanic wrote: »

Have there been any union to league converts that have been class?

Jonathan Davies of Wales immediately springs to mind...Neath and Wales in Union...Widnes, Warrington, Canterbury bulldogs, Wales and GB in League and absolutely excelled at both codes.

boredatwork82

At least in Union they don't stick their fingers up your arse when they tackle you.

But on a serious note, having played and coached both league and Union. You cannot really compare them. If you put Union players playing rugby league from a young age they would develop differently.
As Toomevara said, league is about offloads/and angled lines.
Union you can take all the time and phases in the world, so the offload does not develop in players.

That is why rugby league tackles tend to be higher, to prevent the offload. This has since moved into Union tackles, and rugby league defence has become prominent.

But after saying all that, if a player is class running at oppossition with ball in hand, that level of class will be visible in both codes.

To answer the op question, I do not think that team right now would stand a chance against a rugby league team. If they played rugby league for the next 2 years, then maybe.

toomevara

boredatwork82 wrote: »

At least in Union they don't stick their fingers up your arse when they tackle you.

But on a serious note, having played and coached both league and Union. You cannot really compare them. If you put Union players playing rugby league from a young age they would develop differently.
As Toomevara said, league is about offloads/and angled lines.
Union you can take all the time and phases in the world, so the offload does not develop in players.

That is why rugby league tackles tend to be higher, to prevent the offload. This has since moved into Union tackles, and rugby league defence has become prominent.

But after saying all that, if a player is class running at oppossition with ball in hand, that level of class will be visible in both codes.

To answer the op question, I do not think that team right now would stand a chance against a rugby league team. If they played rugby league for the next 2 years, then maybe.

+1 all round...except the finger up the ass bit,lol!! That was one rogue looney,,,no, really I swear, I swear. Granted you've served me there, but dude I played union in the front row, and frankly the stuff that goes on in there would be regarded as too risque for a german snuff movie!!!!!

boredatwork82

Also, I meant to add in, Last summer my under 14 union team played a touring under 14 English rugby league team. I coached them for 3 weeks during the summer for the league game. We played 2 matchs. First we got beat easily, rugby union habits, not offloading, weak tackles etc., 1 week later we played them again, they scored in the last minute to beat us. It was one of the best games of rugby (league/union) i have ever seen. The touring team were amazed and couldn't beleive that these guys never played league.

What I am trying to say is to back up my previous statement, these kids, liked rugby, runningwith the ball & tackling. They were not so set in their ways that they were able to adapt to league tendancies so quickly.

It brings extra skillsets into each others games, and it would be great to see underage rugby league grow as a summer sport in this country. The straightening of the line when ball carrying, and tackling/defence has benefitted the guys immensly in this seasons union competitions.

A bit of a repetitive post, sorry

Paul Tergat

toomevara wrote: »

Heading over from Leeds meself to catch the game....Look forward to your contribution on here (even if you are from bradford *pinches nose and cocks a snook*:D)

OI, i'll have you know you are called DIRTY leeds for a reason. The smell in Bradford is...errr...drifted over from your place :pac:

toomevara wrote: »

Make sure you watch the world club challenge this weekend. SL champions Leeds V NRL champs Manly Sea Eagles at Elland Road. Come on the Rhinos!!

Now where was that Manly shirt I have?

toomevara wrote: »

Jonathan Davies of Wales immediately springs to mind...Neath and Wales in Union...Widnes, Warrington, Canterbury bulldogs, Wales and GB in League and absolutely excelled at both codes.

Jason Robinson was pretty good in both codes but it's kinda funny how recently a lot of the league lads who've crossed over have pretty much flopped - Farrell was a 'god' (sky sports god that is) and didnt take to it that well, same with Iestyn Harris who Bradford ended up stealing from Leeds (wish we didn't bother the amount he took in wages) and even players like Wendell Sailor and Matt Rogers who were league stars just didn't seem to adapt well. For 2 sports that are perceived to be so similar they are so different.

Even Karl Pryce (played against him before and knew him from home) couldn't get near a rugby union team when he switched and now he's back with Nobby at Wigan (granted injuries fecked him over).

EDIT: fecking forgot big Les too. Volcano hasn't really erupted yet in Union and he's out scrapping in the streets too. He's been in my local a few times with Leon Pryce - both top blokes especially that traitor Leon!!

boredatwork82 wrote: »

That is why rugby league tackles tend to be higher, to prevent the offload. This has since moved into Union tackles, and rugby league defence has become prominent...


To answer the op question, I do not think that team right now would stand a chance against a rugby league team. If they played rugby league for the next 2 years, then maybe.

No in Union they prefer to stay in a scrum for 10 minutes if possible and wrestle on the floor in mauls. lol


Shaun Edwards is another league hero who is doing wonders as defence coach for the Wales national team - as you said the defensive side of league is being used ever more in union.



And you're right in what you say about needing time to adapt. No doubt many union players have the skillset and natural ability but they have just been brought up to play rugby in the union style rather than league






I also aim to throw up a few threads myself, dunno what on yet but no doubt ill be rambling about something!

toomevara

boredatwork82 wrote: »

Also, I meant to add in, Last summer my under 14 union team played a touring under 14 English rugby league team. I coached them for 3 weeks during the summer for the league game. We played 2 matchs. First we got beat easily, rugby union habits, not offloading, weak tackles etc., 1 week later we played them again, they scored in the last minute to beat us. It was one of the best games of rugby (league/union) i have ever seen. The touring team were amazed and couldn't beleive that these guys never played league.

What I am trying to say is to back up my previous statement, these kids, liked rugby, runningwith the ball & tackling. They were not so set in their ways that they were able to adapt to league tendancies so quickly.

It brings extra skillsets into each others games, and it would be great to see underage rugby league grow as a summer sport in this country. The straightening of the line when ball carrying, and tackling/defence has benefitted the guys immensly in this seasons union competitions.

A bit of a repetitive post, sorry

Fascinating post. I've always thought there should be more crossover/cooperations between the two codes and frankly I don't, for the life of me, know how you can like one and not the other...Although, having said that I think in many cases its just a question of exposure. As i've said on here before, I've brought many folk from back home who've never seen a game of league to watch the rhinos and most get the bug...

Paul Tergat

toomevara wrote: »

Fascinating post. I've always thought there should be more crossover/cooperations between the two codes and frankly I don't, for the life of me, know how you can like one and not the other...Although, having said that I think in many cases its just a question of exposure. As i've said on here before, I've brought many folk from back home who've never seen a game of league to watch the rhinos and most get the bug...

Yeah you're 100% right, it's completely about exposure.

I was brought up as league but I still watched Union and therefore have an appreciation for both.

All my friends over here just laugh when I tell them how good league is but yet they haven't seen games and when we watch them they become engrossed.


I was going to suggest taking anyone you know to Odsal but i'm sure that will put them off league for life - the Odsal debacle could be my first thread actually, rant on the way !

toomevara

p_larkin99 wrote: »

Jason Robinson was pretty good in both codes but it's kinda funny how recently a lot of the league lads who've crossed over have pretty much flopped - Farrell was a 'god' (sky sports god that is) and didnt take to it that well, same with Iestyn Harris who Bradford ended up stealing from Leeds (wish we didn't bother the amount he took in wages) and even players like Wendell Sailor and Matt Rogers who were league stars just didn't seem to adapt well.

Thought too much was expected of these guys but in real terms they did well. I'm a fan of Rogers and Sailor's problem wasn't the conversion but his bloody temperament! If he'd knuckled under and had some discipline I think he'd have done really well. Also recently I like the look of Ryan Cross in a wallaby shirt.

As for the Volcano, now that is one that really hasn't worked at all. He just hasn't made the mental leap. Jesus when I think of the scourge that fecker was. I for one am glad he took the union shilling!!!

drzhivago

Aubree Dead Mechanic wrote: »

First question,why do I never see any shoulder barges in super league,they seem commonplace in the nrl??

And second question,how do you think a union team would get on against a super league team playing league?

Say a leinster team of:

Took on a super league team?
Personally I dont see why they couldnt give them a good game,but I could be hugely ignorant as to how difficult it would to adapt.

I think it would be an interesting experiment as Union players have become fitter since 1997, however I met Shaun Edwards after that game and he was furious that they had been told to ease off in the league game and not try to past the 100 points. The Union game was a lot closer, the difference for the league guys was massive in the lineout as there is no line out in League. The scrums were a technical challenge as well but the pace of the game was so much slower that they were well rested and it actually negated the Union guys lower fitness levels

It would depend what rules the game now was played under

Depend what team played what team

But I would love to go and watch

drzhivago

Aubree Dead Mechanic wrote: »

Rocky elsom played league,he is world class,I cant think of many other modern day league converts that have been world class in union.
Have there been any union to league converts that have been class?
Ive been dissapointed with Sonny Bill.

Brad thorn
Henry Paul
Robbie Paul
Brian Carney
Jason Robinson

Large number of Samoans and Fijiians playing Premiership in Uk who are league converts, apologies dont know names

drzhivago

boredatwork82 wrote: »

Also, I meant to add in, Last summer my under 14 union team played a touring under 14 English rugby league team. I coached them for 3 weeks during the summer for the league game. We played 2 matchs. First we got beat easily, rugby union habits, not offloading, weak tackles etc., 1 week later we played them again, they scored in the last minute to beat us. It was one of the best games of rugby (league/union) i have ever seen. The touring team were amazed and couldn't beleive that these guys never played league.

What I am trying to say is to back up my previous statement, these kids, liked rugby, runningwith the ball & tackling. They were not so set in their ways that they were able to adapt to league tendancies so quickly.

It brings extra skillsets into each others games, and it would be great to see underage rugby league grow as a summer sport in this country. The straightening of the line when ball carrying, and tackling/defence has benefitted the guys immensly in this seasons union competitions.

A bit of a repetitive post, sorry

No need to be sorry I think you are right

I have found when union players start league for first time they still have many union habits like trying to pass out of tackles which is much less prevalent in league (unless you have got good breakers who are following the first line)

When that happens then the league teams are often already waiting for the next play the ball when there is suddenly a new break happening. More obvious at amateur level and much less likely as pro where they really play the whistle.

I played league here in the late 80's and early 90's. the only teams we could play were visiting English teams in April/may/june at the end of their season

It was fantastic to develop skills, we got so much mroe running and bal handling than union forwards would normally get

We had players from Union, GAA and soccer so were all new to the game and I must say it was more enjoyable at the time than the high level of Union I was playing back then when I was young

Would be nice to see kids rugby league develop


Incidentally the tag rugby as played during summers with mixed teams is all played to league rules, likely taht there could be a lot of converts there who actually know the rules and might want to play the full contact version

toomevara

toomevara wrote: »

Make sure you watch the world club challenge this weekend. SL champions Leeds V NRL champs Manly Sea Eagles at Elland Road. Come on the Rhinos!!

Toomevara you know im a closet league fan.

I like Leeds in SL and I like watching alot of NRL,which I think is superior.Maybe because its more like super 14,they do what they want.Reckless bastards lol?

toomevara

Aubree Dead Mechanic wrote: »

Toomevara you know im a closet league fan.

Don't worry Goose, I won't out you on the union forum....;)

Aubree Dead Mechanic wrote:

Reckless bastards lol?

For sure, those guys are a shekel short of a dinar....exhibit A, and my personal favourite from last year's NRL, m'lud:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF4a3Yy0swQ