Timing belt change, bogus mechanic of genuine problem or both.

givyjoe81

I drive a Hyundai Sonata GLS 2001, 2.0 litre automatic with 94,000 miles on the clock. Basically on the 12th Feb I booked it in to have the timing belt changed and the car serviced while it was there. So anyway, i get the car back, mechanic tells me the car is in grand shape no problems, maybe change front brakes in 5k miles.

Then on the following tuesday (of this week), the car when turned on, feels a little funny, i drive a mile or so and stop at roundabout and can feel irregular vibrations eminating from the engine. Then as i begin to pull off from roundabout and give it gas, it holds back for a moment before giving me the power and me and said car shoot off around the roundabout. I get a couple of hundred yards further down the road and vibrations get worse.. Im thinking i better turn around, particularly as the mechanic in question is actually located just back at roundabout.

So i leave it there pick it up later and he gives me (the owner, not the mechanic who has little english) that the balancing belt was out, and if said belt is either up or down and not in correct position will cause this vibration. Thing is when i brought it back the 'mechanic' is looking bemused and starts fiddling with spark plugs for half hour before deciding he needs to hold onto if for a few hours.

So then on thursday, same crap again and thrown in for extra measure the rev's are going nuts when ignition is turned on, the rpm's are idling at around 1.5 on a scale of 0 - 8, but goin up and down with the vibrations. So the owner (not the mechanic again!) tells mer over phone to drop it back and he'll need to speak to Hyundai dealer about whats going on, wtf?! Why does he need to do that, cant he fix it himself? So i ring a friend who instantly tellls me the timing is out and mentions the 'tensioner'? A neighbour and retired mechanic believes its the same problem, without being specific, i.e. timing is out.

So the owner of the garage rings me on Friday afternoon and says he spoke to Hyundai and that he will order a tensioner to fix the problem, but it will take a couple of days, so he do that and then get it 'priced up for me'. Im livid at this stage and dont know whether to believe a word coming out of his mouth. Partic as i called in on friday when he wasnt there to grab something from the car and briefly spoke to mechanic in broken enlglish who seemed to be saying he still had no idea what the problem was.


Sorry for the essay but i hope the extra details will enable someone to give me an idea whats going on. Please please help!Thanks in adance!:(

mickdw

Most cars require having the tensioner changed with the timing belt as if the tensioner were to fail, the damage could/would be the same as a snapped timing belt. I would firstly check to be certain with a main dealer if the tensioner needs replacing with the belt and then if so, take no sh1t from garage. They sound like cowboys to be honest.
If tensioner is at fault and dealer confirms that it should be changed with the timing belt, I would get very annoyed with the garage and in this case dont give them another penny.

How much did all the original work cost you?

givyjoe81

mickdw wrote: »

Most cars require having the tensioner changed with the timing belt as if the tensioner were to fail, the damage could/would be the same as a snapped timing belt. I would firstly check to be certain with a main dealer if the tensioner needs replacing with the belt and then if so, take no sh1t from garage. They sound like cowboys to be honest.
If tensioner is at fault and dealer confirms that it should be changed with the timing belt, I would get very annoyed with the garage and in this case dont give them another penny.

How much did all the original work cost you?

Iv tried to keep calm so far because my knowledge is limited, iv just been asking questions to find out whats going on and what iv been told makes no sense. My logic was you only need one attempt, if you have a clue, on changing the timing belt. If the tensioner as he now says needs doing why wasnt it done at first, or even the second time i brought it back, not the third!! The guys well Hyundai said only one in four tensioner's need to be done, and was thinking well why the fcuk didnt your mechanic check to see if my cars tensioner was a one in four car that needed this change.

I only paid €280 for the job. And i know people will be saying oh well there you get, pay peanuts etc, but i just couldnt afford the near €600 it would have cost me in hyundai.

As for the damage, thats what i thought, knew it was timing belt related, yet the mechanic didnt seem to at first. Is there a possibility it could be something other than tensioner? He actually said when i asked why didnt old belt give me trouble with the dodgy tensioner, "well that just goes to show you how bad your old belt was" saying that it didnt vibrate as the old belt was stretched, out if thats makes any sense?!

I might be clutching at straws but now that i think of it, is this well "Hyundai say only one in four tensioners need to be changed" a way of him trying to get of his mechanics original mistake of not checking? So he can go and charge me for the labour of the extra job when he could have done it with timing belt in first place with a nominal extra labour charge and the cost of said tensioner?!

mickdw

Ring hyundai (or one of the working mechanics on here might give an answer) and say you are looking to get timing belt done. Ask for quote and ask what is covered in the quote just so you have the proper info.
Generally tensioner has to be done and anyway its a fools game gambling on the condition of it.
Of course we dont know for sure if the tensioner is the problem.
Also, the water pump is usually changed too with the timing belt (if pump is driven by the timing belt)as its costs little but the same timing belt labour would be involved to change it should it go later.

The price does seem very cheap for the belt replacement. I wouldnt have the work done at the main dealer but there are plenty of indy garages who could do the work to as good or better standard than the dealer for reasonable cost

Nonoperational

Sounds very like he just threw a new belt onto the old tensioners. Not sure of the correct procedure for your car but most cars need the tensioners changed too. It can often be the tensioner that fails not the belt.

Capt'n Midnight

gpf101 wrote: »

Sounds very like he just threw a new belt onto the old tensioners. Not sure of the correct procedure for your car but most cars need the tensioners changed too. It can often be the tensioner that fails not the belt.

Doesn't the tensioner costs more than the belt ?

If you have a non-intefering engine then you can argue about whether it's worth the risk

But if you have an intefering engine where the timing belt is all that stops the valves hitting each other it's probably cheaper to replacing an engine that old rather than repair it if the belt goes


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timing_belt

In interference designs, regular service is especially important as incorrect timing may result in the pistons and valves colliding and causing extensive engine damage and therefore costly repairs. The piston will likely bend the valves or if a piece of valve or piston is broken off within the cylinder, the broken piece may cause severe damage within the cylinder, often also affecting the crankshaft. Some manufacturers, such as Nissan, have switched back to timing chains for the majority of their engines because of the breakage problems associated with belts. However, in some newer engines, timing belts are designed to last the effective life of the engine. Other manufacturers, such as Toyota, use a mix: timing chains on their interference engines and timing belts on their non-interference engines.

When a timing belt is replaced, care must be taken to ensure that the valve and piston movements are correctly synchronized. The usual failure mode of a timing belt is stripped teeth (which leaves a smooth section of belt where the drive cog will slip) rather than an outright snapping of the belt, which is very uncommon. Correct belt tension is critical - too loose and the belt will whip, too tight and it will whine and put excess strain on the bearings of the cogs. In either case belt life will be drastically shortened. All engines feature an adjustable tensioning roller to allow correct adjustment of belt tension.

givyjoe81

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Doesn't the tensioner costs more than the belt ?

If you have a non-intefering engine then you can argue about whether it's worth the risk

But if you have an intefering engine where the timing belt is all that stops the valves hitting each other it's probably cheaper to replacing an engine that old rather than repair it if the belt goes


QUOTE]

Mate the engine is vibrating like a mofo, its not an option to just leave the repairs at just the timing belt!

As for procedure, the guy/owner and not mechanic tried to tell me that Hyundai said well only one in four tensioners need to be changed, but WTF? That means you have to at least check it first, otherwise how do any get changed, guess work?!

Hyundai manual says all parts associated with timing belt need to be checked, its doesnt tell you how to do it but thats what my arguement is gonna be when he tries to sting me with labour for the tensioner when he could and should have done it when timing belt was being replaced.

klaus23

givyjoe81 wrote: »

So i ring a friend who instantly tellls me the timing is out and mentions the 'tensioner'? A neighbour and retired mechanic believes its the same problem, without being specific, i.e. timing is out.

+1

It sounds as if the timing is indeed out. In basic terms, it means that the timing marks on the cambelt and crankshaft pulleys were not aligned correctly to give top dead centre on cylinder one and hence you're having problems.

I don't understand why they didn't change the tensioner along with the belt. Now they'll need another belt, and it would have also made sense to do the waterpump and thermostat (assuming they're cambelt driven in your car) at the same time. The car might also have balancing shafts which might have needed replacing at the same time.

Finally, to the genuis that went looking up wikipedia about non-interference engines. This has no relevance to the bloody engine timing being out...

givyjoe81

klaus23 wrote: »

+1

It sounds as if the timing is indeed out. In basic terms, it means that the timing marks on the cambelt and crankshaft pulleys were not aligned correctly to give top dead centre on cylinder one and hence you're having problems.

I don't understand why they didn't change the tensioner along with the belt. Now they'll need another belt, and it would have also made sense to do the waterpump and thermostat (assuming they're cambelt driven in your car) at the same time. The car might also have balancing shafts which might have needed replacing at the same time.

Finally, to the genuis that went looking up wikipedia about non-interference engines. This has no relevance to the bloody engine timing being out...

Will it really need a new belt? I was old by retired mechanic next door the belt should be fine once they actually put it on prob and change tensioner, or will this original new belt be fooked? They didnt think to change tensioner until i brought it back the SECOND time, and his logic was well Hyundai says only one if four need to be changed at this interval, which is irrelavent surely, you gotta check the damn thing.

As i was reading up on the subject it did also cross my mind as to why they didnt check water pump too, but not sure if that as you said is run by cam belt.

What really bemuses me is what the hell did he do the first time i brought it back to stop the initial vibration which came back later?!

mickdw

klaus23 wrote: »

Finally, to the genuis that went looking up wikipedia about non-interference engines. This has no relevance to the bloody engine timing being out...

No but in fairness it would be relevant in this discussion in that if it was non interference, it wouldnt be quite so bad to leave the tensioner undone.

klaus23

mickdw wrote: »

No but in fairness it would be relevant in this discussion in that if it was non interference, it wouldnt be quite so bad to leave the tensioner undone.

:rolleyes:

I understand what you're saying but the belt and tensioner don't come into the equation if the cam timing is out, both will have to come off again to align the pulleys correctly.

Givyjoe, I would be of the opinion - rightly or wrongly - that once an automotive belt is tensioned and then slackened at a future date it should be replaced. If it was me I'd look for a refund from this rather ropey operator and head off to a more reputable garage.

Hellrazer

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Hyundai manual says all parts associated with timing belt need to be checked, its doesnt tell you how to do it but thats what my arguement is gonna be when he tries to sting me with labour for the tensioner when he could and should have done it when timing belt was being replaced.

Hyundai are right.Only about 1 in four need to be changed.The recommendation is to check all the pulleys when doing a belt and any with sideways "play" have to be changed.

Just asked one of the lads in Hyundai that I used to work with and he says its one of two things

1.Timing is off by one or two teeth--usually causes a bad misfire and crap idling.

or

2.The camshaft position sensor which has to be removed to do the belt has been put back on back to front or crooked--common enough problem with indepandants who arent doing belts all the time since it looks like it fits the opposite way to what you would think.

Hope this helps.

givyjoe81

klaus23 wrote: »

:rolleyes:

I understand what you're saying but the belt and tensioner don't come into the equation if the cam timing is out, both will have to come off again to align the pulleys correctly.

Givyjoe, I would be of the opinion - rightly or wrongly - that once an automotive belt is tensioned and then slackened at a future date it should be replaced. If it was me I'd look for a refund from this rather ropey operator and head off to a more reputable garage.

Havent gotten to that point yet, but getting there, I know what the answer will be to this question. Was away all week so just got to pick it up today.

The owner who as i mentioned is not the mechanic doing repairs or even a mechanic himself from what i can gather told me over the phone today that he has now replaced the tensioner, but it was an expensive part to replace, does this part not come with the timing belt kit?! Does it really cost around €153?! Did say he wasnt charging for the labour, which i wasn't going to pay anyway.

So anyway, this place is open pretty much every hour of the day but the chap wasnt there earlier so i popped up with spare key and took it home to se whats what(didnt pay the parts charge, cos well just some lackey there, no intention of paying extra cent to this guy till its 100% fixed either, and guess im nearly sure its still not fooking right. Im 90% of the same initial low level vibration which is followed by the heavy stuff!

Just as it has the previous two times in 10 to 20 miles or so, the rpm's will start going nuts, and the vibrations will become more violent. I cannot get my head around this at all. How on earth can a so called mechanic get such a job wrong so many times... But would i be correct in saying that each time this wasnt done right the chap would have had to replace the new belt due to over stretching from incorrect timing or am i talking absolute balooba's.

Darragh29

From what I can make out from your post, you have no less than 4 people now advising you in relation to this issue, (a neighbour, a friend, a retired mechanic, a main dealer), and not one of these 4 people have seen the car, and you've another handful of people giving their opinion on here.

Will you realise how this approach is going to get you nowhere, you can't seriously expect to get anywhere with 8-10 people advising you on one particular problem that none of those people have been able to inspect the engine and evaluate the problem.

Pick ONE mechanic who you trust and get that person to look at the car and find out what the problem is, and put everyone else's opinion on the matter aside.

givyjoe81

Darragh29 wrote: »

From what I can make out from your post, you have no less than 4 people now advising you in relation to this issue, (a neighbour, a friend, a retired mechanic, a main dealer), and not one of these 4 people have seen the car, and you've another handful of people giving their opinion on here.

Will you realise how this approach is going to get you nowhere, you can't seriously expect to get anywhere with 8-10 people advising you on one particular problem that none of those people have been able to inspect the engine and evaluate the problem.

Pick ONE mechanic who you trust and get that person to look at the car and find out what the problem is, and put everyone else's opinion on the matter aside.

Mate, if you had read my post you would have briefly seen that i was away ALL WEEK with my last post before this morning being last weekend. My approach is trying to get as much info on what the potential probs are so this guy cant keep moving the goal posts each time i bring the car back, which is exactly what is happening, something i stated early on. Just on my out the door to Hyundai to get them to have a look but as I would imagine and inspection of such a problem is going to cost is it not?! You have to open up cover to get to timing belt! Not going to be done for free id imagine, which is the crux of my prob too. Cant afford to pay for the job twice. Anyway they had the car up until last night so not possible to get someone else to look at it!

I value as many opinions as possible because at least this way after giving the info i have i may be able to establish a general concensus so i dont get shafted, as i mentioned, my knowledge on cars is limited at best and have had little interaction with mechanics as im not driving that long. My thinking on this was that perhaps it may not be straight forward and different mechanics opinion may indeed differ! So im trying to arm myself with as much info as possible!

Darragh29

givyjoe81 wrote: »

Mate, if you had read my post you would have briefly seen that i was away ALL WEEK with my last post before this morning being last weekend. My approach is trying to get as much info on what the potential probs are so this guy cant keep moving the goal posts each time i bring the car back, which is exactly what is happening, something i stated early on. Just on my out the door to Hyundai to get them to have a look but as I would imagine and inspection of such a problem is going to cost is it not?! You have to open up cover to get to timing belt! Not going to be done for free id imagine, which is the crux of my prob too. Cant afford to pay for the job twice. Anyway they had the car up until last night so not possible to get someone else to look at it!

I value as many opinions as possible because at least this way after giving the info i have i may be able to establish a general concensus so i dont get shafted, as i mentioned, my knowledge on cars is limited at best and have had little interaction with mechanics as im not driving that long. My thinking on this was that perhaps it may not be straight forward and different mechanics opinion may indeed differ! So im trying to arm myself with as much info as possible!

I understand your frustration but you need to ask the outlet that did the timing belt job for you, to outline in writing exactly what the problem is now. The information you need is:

(1) What component is causing the problem with your engine.

(2) What impact is the performance of this component, having on the normal operation of your engine. Basically how is this defective component causing a problem with your engine, is it causing a timing problem, a misfire, etc...

(3) How much will this cost to resolve, parts & labour.