Are Martial Arts clubs suffering in the recession ?

O'Leprosy

With less money around and people having higher priorites like paying their mortage, car loan, electricity etc, are martial arts clubs suffering ??



( or will people admit their club is feeling the bite ? )

jim o doom

Kenpo club I'm in is small - it's gone through ups & downs, but it has good students & there still someone always down training - also despite being quiet from time to time, it has plenty of busy busy days when everyone shows up as well!

For me showing up and doing what I love is far more important than saving the few bob I would be saving if I were to skip it. I'd sooner give up booze.

pgibbo

Likewise Jim. Our Karate club is quite small but numbers have been up the last few weeks. We always have a core group that train, but in recent weeks numbers are up. Maybe it's better than watching the news and getting depressed!
Personally, I would always find the money for training.

cowzerp

People who normally spend lots of money in pubs will now want something to do so paying say 10 euro for a nights training is much cheaper than 100 having a night out..i think the recession may actually help martial arts clubs..

arybvtcw0eolkf

I'd rather put it down to great clubs/instructors but I've noticed a big increase in lads training Judo at the moment.

Both clubs I train with have increased their attendance in the last year, and I was absolutely shocked at the huge number of students Andy Ryan had in his Judo class on Monday night (BJJ Revolution).

Judomad

Mairt wrote: »

I'd rather put it down to great clubs/instructors but I've noticed a big increase in lads training Judo at the moment.

Both clubs I train with have increased their attendance in the last year, and I was absolutely shocked at the huge number of students Andy Ryan had in his Judo class on Monday night (BJJ Revolution).

TUESDAY martin......7pm by the way guys

joepenguin

It may see an increase in students as there will be a lot more people unemployed and looking for something to do. Whether it be gym, football, martial arts. As long as its reasonlably priced people will come.
Plus people wont be going out during the week as much.

You would get 1-4 months martial arts training for the price of a night out.

Andrew H

I left school in the bad old 90's and went straight in to sign on the dole with friends from school in different lines... I joined a martial arts school (Kung Fu ) and the teacher at the time had a special rate for unemployed students. There was always a good turn out for classes and it sure as hell was better than sitting at home watching television all the time! I stayed training with that club for 10 years or more and I train BJJ now.

At the end of the day I think Martial Arts clubs will survive and will help educate people about different nationalities, cultures and people as we mightened have the money to go holidaying for a while....

mark.leonard

I find that people are a little bit more wary about committing to a long term contract, but that numbers in general have not suffered.

Tim_Murphy

O'Leprosy wrote: »

With less money around and people having higher priorites like paying their mortage, car loan, electricity etc, are martial arts clubs suffering ??



( or will people admit their club is feeling the bite ? )

I can't ever remember Point Blank being busier to be honest. I think its because Mark just put "recession beating deal" beside all his prices.

O'Leprosy

cowzerp wrote: »

People who normally spend lots of money in pubs will now want something to do so paying say 10 euro for a nights training is much cheaper than 100 having a night out..i think the recession may actually help martial arts clubs..

Good point cowzerp. Hopefully it may ironically help MA clubs.

RoosterIllusion

What's the normal cost for a class?

I do KFM and I pay $10/month through the KFM website and our instructor isn't paid at all.

I assume that changes as you go from place to place but seeing as I've never been in another MA class I have no concept of the cost.

the drifter

heck no the one i attend has gotten alot bigger!

Unpossible

This thread is very encouraging,

Roper

Based on my numbers right now and a conversation wth a few of the lads the other night, some of them new to the gym, the answer is no.

People are far more willing to shell out €70 (that's how much membership of my gym costs) for a whole month of something to do every night than to shell out €100 on one night out. If you think of the benefits for your health, the craic of it, or even just having it as a pastime then it's worth it.

I think I've said this one before but a mate of mine who runs a taekwondo club had a fella come up to him and ask him more or less for a freebie as money was tight etc. My mate said "don't you smoke?", "yeah, 10 a day", "Well quit that instead!"

A bit harsh but you get the point I'm sure.

Hephaestus

I e-mailed 2 MA clubs earlier this week expressing my interest in joining.

No response from either of them yet so clearly their not struggling for numbers.

cowzerp

Roper wrote: »

I think I've said this one before but a mate of mine who runs a taekwondo club had a fella come up to him and ask him more or less for a freebie as money was tight etc. My mate said "don't you smoke?", "yeah, 10 a day", "Well quit that instead!"

A bit harsh but you get the point I'm sure.

This is very true, the same people who moan about not having money are usually more worried about having the money for smokes or pints.. :eek:

Black Swan

Our enrollment has held. We recently acquired a single TKD studio some miles from us that was going under and couldn't pay their lease. We kept their two best instructors and let the rest go to cut costs. We are doing several demos in the new neighborhood and have signed a few new students, and hope to continue building enrollment. There seems to be a slight increase in crime as a result of the deepening recession, and the fear that comes with it may be helping us to retain and gain students. Seems to be a demand for SD. But who knows? Lots of retail stores are closing in our strip mall and those nearby, which is scary. Word is that the USA has not hit bottom, with the credit card bubble yet to burst.

O'Leprosy

Blue_Lagoon wrote: »

Our enrollment has held. We recently acquired a single TKD studio some miles from us that was going under and couldn't pay their lease. We kept their two best instructors and let the rest go to cut costs. We are doing several demos in the new neighborhood and have signed a few new students, and hope to continue building enrollment. There seems to be a slight increase in crime as a result of the deepening recession, and the fear that comes with it may be helping us to retain and gain students. Seems to be a demand for SD. But who knows? Lots of retail stores are closing in our strip mall and those nearby, which is scary. Word is that the USA has not hit bottom, with the credit card bubble yet to burst.

Is that ITF or WTF TKD ??

The_Robot

The club that I attend may loose some members who have lost jobs and have kids, mortages, etc. But we also have new people starting up so hopefully they will stay.

accas

you can pay per class, i'm sure lots of clubs in Dublin do that.

Black Swan

O'Leprosy wrote: »

Is that ITF or WTF TKD ??

We are WTF with all our instructors Kukkiwon registered. We spar Olympic, not points, and compliment our instruction with SD. Although our city is pretty crime free, nearby Santa Ana has thousands of gang members, so our students appreciate the TKD/SD blend of instruction.

accas wrote: »

you can pay per class, i'm sure lots of clubs in Dublin do that.

We don't do this. Except for a greatly discounted introductory 6 weeks offering (which includes debok and belt), we only sign students to annual contracts. They can pay monthly, or receive a 15% discount for paying a year in advance. There is no up front membership fee, and the debok and first belt are free with first enrollment. We do have grading fees, and Kukkiwon black belt registration is extra. Our contracts call for instruction three days per week, but if a student comes more often, we don't charge extra. A handful of students attend 5 to 6 days per week, and tend to advance more quickly than the others. A few show fewer than 3 times per week, so it all averages out.

deegs

Our numbers on beginners courses (Jan and Feb) are down 30% on last year

BUT

last year we had about 80%+ foreign nationals
this year we have about 80% Irish.

If we only look at the Irish figures we are actually doing better than last year.

I cant figure out why the non nationals have stopped attending / enquiring?

silat liam

deegs wrote: »

Our numbers on beginners courses (Jan and Feb) are down 30% on last year

BUT

last year we had about 80%+ foreign nationals
this year we have about 80% Irish.

If we only look at the Irish figures we are actually doing better than last year.

I cant figure out why the non nationals have stopped attending / enquiring?

It might be down to the fact alot of non nationals have lost their jobs, or not getting the same pay and have left Ireland to go elsewhere, or maybe just back home.

Unpossible

Roughly how much are clubs charging per class these days?

accas

10-20 per class, 1-1.5hours

Unpossible

:eek: man I thought charging 6 would be too much

Roper

accas wrote: »

10-20 per class, 1-1.5hours

Don't know where you're getting that figure.

I charge €70 per month, which works out at about €1.75 per class. A bit different from €20!!!!!!

accas

That is what I paid for my Yoga class last term. While if you pay for a full term (say 10 weeks) in advance, it will be much cheaper, around 6 or 7 per hour.

silat liam

Unpossible wrote: »

Roughly how much are clubs charging per class these days?

Around €10 - €12 depending on venue, and location

jim o doom

If you wana pay by class is a tenner a class - they have weekly and monthly options in mine as well - 100 for the month is what I'm on and I can show up every day of the week and Saturday to boot, so it's worth it

j walsh

Waterford Muaythai charge €7 per session and its cheaper if you wish to pay monthly.
Fair play if you can fill charging €10 and above.;)

deegs

We charge €35 a month and that gets you 8 classes (12h).

Niall Keane

how are people finding rents / leases. We just left a gym in the city centre, the clown wanted to charge thrice as much for half the space. from €10 / hr to €30 / hr. With the glut of empty commercial space out there, I expect by summer those landlords still trying to hold on for 2005 level rents / leases willl be forced by their bankers to accept less.
All a martial arts gym needs is a shell and core building. 100 sqm does most clubs. that costs €100,000 to build, i.e. about €400 - €500 a month repayment to a bank. Under the rule of most viable businesses, that expense ahould be about 1/3 of earnings. (1/3 for expenses, 1/3 for sallaries, 1/3 for profit) So they would want to earn €1,200 a month for each 100 sqm space.
Say that there's 4 hours sellable space a day for 7 days. i.e. 28 hours a week, 112 a month.
So €1200 divided by 112 equals €10.71 an hour for 100 sqm space gives a good profit.
How much are people still paying?
What I'm saying here is that €15 an hour would be a good business by any standards, rents will reduce to this, I'd say by the summer, that would allow a reduction in fees to students and perhaps a boom in martial arts?

Unpossible

10 an hour sounds fantastic, in Limerick I was given prices ranging between 20 and 60 per hour. I'm not going to say how much the place I've gotten is but its between those two numbers

MartyMcFly84

Hi Niall Keane

I was just reading through your figures there. I was just wondering if you included factors like purchasing matts (1m x 1m = €88.00) , bags, pads, gloves etc. Insurance,man hours/wages, a defibrillator (really expensive and required for many martial arts clubs) Im sure there are other cost that I havent factored in but im sure the profit margins that you estimated would be a good bit slimmer!

Niall Keane

Never had a landlord who provided those items, did get shared use of a small boxing ring once, but it was housed outside beneath a perspex shelter, we have our own matts, bags, gloves etc. etc. etc. as I said shell and core. Yet there have been times I've paid €60 for a small low ceiling room for 1.5 hrs.
For purpose built gyms, they could ask some more, but matts are a one off expense, a starting off cost, if in a purpose built building, part of the build, so insignificent in the over all costs. say going back to my figures, €130 per sqm, so €13k for every 100 sqm good class size, they'll last 5 years, thats €2,600 a year, €217 a month, divided by 112 hours equals €1.93 an hour.
Does €2 justify €50 extra? and that €130 is what we paid, for our own matts, if it was part of a building a top end purpose built floor could go in for much less.
See people will get smarter, the boom is over, questions will be asked, what am I receiving for my hard earned money?

silat liam

Hi Niall

I was just looking at your figures, I just wondering have you accounted for things like VAT at 21.5% and Income Taxes, which most gym owmers would be paying if the gym was running at a profit. I think most gym owners coundn't just depend the gym would be hire every hour off the day. I know personally two of my studios I hire rooms off, have actually put their price up by 10%! this year alone. which really surprize me

Niall Keane

Look what I'm saying is that the basic rule of most business is 1/3 salaries, 1/3 expenses and 1/3 profit.
we're generally talking about renting out shell and core spartan gym space, the only real expenses are upkeep a part time caretaker and repayments, that's pretty damn good compared to other business premises.
My figures are based on 4 hour a day 7 days a week, I'm sure many gyms double or tripple that. and the figures show that its feasable to get a building, rent as a gym, get those who use the gym to cover the repayments, and make a good profit on the investment without taking the p*#$.
Basically we've all been ripped off for years, while landlords sat on premises watching them increase in value. Developers all over the cities were gobbing up any rundown buildings, small warehouses etc. so such landlords offering such spaces for martial arts classes were able to name their price. Now there is a glut of vacant small industrtial units in all our suburbs, I see many gyms on boards have moved out from the city centre.
Remember there are a lot of people who borrowed on the potential value of their properties, and now they cannot be sold, but the repayments still have to be made. Give it time, I'd say summer, and they'll crack, and rents will be way down.

tiger king thai

i used to charge by the month but i found it very messy. people would miss the first couple of classes and say why should i pay for classes that i wasnt here for etc etc. so i stopped and start charging by the class 10 euro for a hour and a half. but since the downturn i have dropped my price to 8 euro and i am willing to make a deal with people on the dole . just after thought does anybody else find that school halls are always or costly than gyms or local centres