New Championship Format

Stupido

I believe the GAA has to change the current championship format if the games are to continue to grow and flourish. The current province based system is flawed, and heavily biased against the smaller counties.

I believe there should be a league round of matches followed by playoffs, as is the case in American football, Aussie rules and champions league.

This gives the weaker counties a minimum amount of games, which would allow peple to get championship excited.


Perhaps a merging of the league with the championship is the way to go.

thoughts

Mr. Incognito

Not being smart but they have that- it's called the league.

Are you talking about football or hurling btw?

The championship draw system has benefited football but is a farce in hurling- the only thing that is going to bring the "weaker" counties up is themselves- they get enough games at the minute. Getting hammered in two games is not that much different from getting hammered in five.

You need to instill a couching scheme at underage and follow it through- DUblin hurlling is a good model for this.

But no matter what, the traditionalist counties will always rasie the bar.

Stupido

Unless the championship is reformatted the same thing that has happened in hurling will happen in football, a few very strong counties and lots of weak ones.

What is the point of having the likes of Sligo or Leitrim who have just 1 game in the championship? Surely it would benefit these teams to have a few...say 6 or 8 games. It would allow them to develop, allow the fans to go and support them, and generate much greater attendances.

It is a chicken and egg situation. The weaker counties will only get stronger IF they get enough competitive matches. By having them out of the championship at the first hurdle...and in some cases they don't get a second chance (another silly decision) how are they going to improve? The League? weaker teams only get to play weaker teams!!

The league is a joke, it is not respected by the big teams, who use it as a trial tournament, and as a result people find it hard to get excited about.....just look at the attendances ! A reformatted championship could change all that.

If you are looking for potential look what happened to Sligo and Fermanagh in recent years...a couple of games and they suddenly start winning...and the knock-on effect with their supporters.

Mr. Incognito

Look- the whole point of the Championship is that it's a knock out competition.

The weaker counties will only get stronger IF they get enough competitive matches

I disagree.

I don't believe that weaker teams playing stronger teams improves the weaker team- how can it. Your players will gain more experience in being beaten is all.

What makes a good team is grassroots skill and then organisation. Waterford could play 100 Championship games and they will still not improve becasue the grassroots organisation is there.

People have rumbled on with this argument for years and what happens- if anything it takes away from the weaker teams. Monaghan beat Armagh in 2003 in the opening game of the Championship. Armagh came through the qualifiers and made the Final. Monaghan's win was forgotten- under the old format it wouldn't have been and it would have spurred the county on the greater things though they are doing well enough as it is.

The league is a joke, it is not respected by the big teams, who use it as a trial tournament, and as a result people find it hard to get excited about.....just look at the attendances ! A reformatted championship could change all that. just look at the attendances ! A reformatted championship could change all that.

I assure you it is not. If you have a look at the league winners and the all Ireland winners from 2000 onwards you'll notice that from 2000-2004 it produced the all ireland winners. Donegal and Derry are recent flops but it doesn't mean teams take it as a joke- it's an important part of the preseason to blood new players and it's profile is getting bigger every year, attendences included. TG4 has done a lot for it's profile also. As for attendences- Kerry Tyrone was sold out and I was in Tralee for the Donegal game and that was sold out too! This from a county with a bad reputation for travelling support

If you are looking for potential look what happened to Sligo and Fermanagh in recent years...a couple of games and they suddenly start winning...and the knock-on effect with their supporters.

It's not as simple as a couple of games. In both examples the counties themselves had put in a strong management team and organisational might behind them. fermanagh in particular had some outstanding minor teams, look out for Roscommon in a few years too.

There are enough problems with player burn-out as it is- a reformatted championship would take away from the games not add to them- look at the munster final in football and hurling. The advent of the back door has rendered both a meaningless bauble and the athmosphere suffers as a result. It's the chasm of the knock-out that spurs teams to greatness.

In my opinion the extra games have been a complete failure. Teams come in cycles and whilst it is good for so called weaker counties to get a few games they won't make the break through while Kerry and Tyrone and Galway get a get out of jail free card when they are beaten- they are very hard to beat twice.

The hurling format- well I wont even go there. You'd be hard pressed to find any hurling supporter to say that any county has benefitted from the extra games and you have crazy anomolies like some teams losing two games and going on and others losing one and going out.

You want my opinion go back to the old system and put the losers from each round in the McKenna cup. That way you have an unbeaten Championship winning team winning the All Ireland every year. That's the true tradition.

More games- bah- you can have them.

Gingy

Stupido wrote: »

Surely it would benefit these teams to have a few...say 6 or 8 games. It would allow them to develop, allow the fans to go and support them, and generate much greater attendances.

Look what happened in hurling with the round robin championship qualifiers. The top two always came through and attendances were woeful (under 200 at Dublin v Offaly a few years ago) and there was never a championship atmosphere at them. This is not the way forward!

Daysha

I think Mickey Harte did make a fair point last year with regards the provencial winners. Why is it that only provencial winners don't get a second chance if they lose in the AI series?

Agus

If we don't want to be as radical as what was suggested above, we could keep the same general plan of the football season as present and still make a few improvements.

Tommy Murphy cup reinstated but this time including only teams that finished in the league bottom 8 and then lost their first championship match. It can be started while the provincial championships are still ongoing. The winners get into the qualifiers.

League champions get a bit of a reward by playing all their championship games at home (except provincial finals and All-Ireland series matches)

Implement the Harte plan to increase the reward for winning the province; the 4 provincial champions play off. The 2 winners get into the semi-finals. The 2 losers get a second chance by playing the top 2 qualifier teams for semi places.

Teams which have already played each other can't meet again in that year's championship. (unless it can't be avoided in the draw, e.g. if both qualified for the final).

Clubs not to have to release their players for county duty on any non-match weekend except the weekend before a senior inter-county championship game.

I think those proposals might lessen some of the main problems without the need for fundamental chamges if the appetite for that isn't there.

tethad

Agus wrote: »

Tommy Murphy cup reinstated but this time including only teams that finished in the league bottom 8 and then lost their first championship match. It can be started while the provincial championships are still ongoing. The winners get into the qualifiers.

League champions get a bit of a reward by playing all their championship games at home (except provincial finals and All-Ireland series matches)

Implement the Harte plan to increase the reward for winning the province; the 4 provincial champions play off. The 2 winners get into the semi-finals. The 2 losers get a second chance by playing the top 2 qualifier teams for semi places.

Teams which have already played each other can't meet again in that year's championship. (unless it can't be avoided in the draw, e.g. if both qualified for the final).

Clubs not to have to release their players for county duty on any non-match weekend except the weekend before a senior inter-county championship game.

I think those could be significant improvements without having to do anything too radical to the format...

Stupido

What I would like to see is an enlarging of the championship in some way, and a lessening of the league & other competitions.

It can be done so more of the counties games are championship, the main competiton, and then hopefully this would get greater interest and attendance, and more games.

I believe a small league type format at the start, where counties have, say, 4 or 5 games in a round robin, before going to last 16 knockout, would achive this.

I haven't worked out any system or concrete proposals, but I do think the current system should be changed (for football anyway...hurling perhaps needs a different approach)

Mr. Incognito

Increased games leads to less interest and lower attendence until you get to the quarter final stage- hurling has proved this.

DO you work for the Grab all association by any chance?

jimbo32123

I think the league should be scaled down to divisions of maybe 5 that would gice around 5 leagus of six and 1 league of 4 IF new york & London participate. This would then free up a few weeks. I slso feel that the provincial championship should not be forgotten but that the winners should recieve some incentive to go on. Leave the provinsial championship as a stand alone competition. then run an open draw for the AI series with the 4 provinsial winners going directly to the last 3 and exempt from preliminary rounds... the run it off from july to 3rd sunday in september!!
have the preliminaries first then:
week 1 last 32
week 3 last 16
week 5 Last 8
week 7 semis
week 9 final

if wanted the existing league could remain un touched...

Mr. Incognito

I think the league should be scaled down to divisions of maybe 5 that would gice around 5 leagus of six and 1 league of 4 IF new york & London participate. This would then free up a few weeks. I slso feel that the provincial championship should not be forgotten but that the winners should recieve some incentive to go on. Leave the provinsial championship as a stand alone competition. then run an open draw for the AI series with the 4 provinsial winners going directly to the last 3 and exempt from preliminary rounds... the run it off from july to 3rd sunday in september!!
have the preliminaries first then:
week 1 last 32
week 3 last 16
week 5 Last 8
week 7 semis
week 9 final

if wanted the existing league could remain un touched...

You realise of course that's pretty much the set up at the moment?

jimbo32123

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

You realise of course that's pretty much the set up at the moment?

SORRY THAT SHOULD SAY LAST 32..SO THE COULD BE PUT OUT IN FIRST GAME..

Mr. Incognito

Jimbo- the only difference I can see between your system and the current one is that the provincial winners would go to the last 32 instead of the last 8 as is currently the format,

also- provincial winners into the last 32- how many counties do you think there are mate? It's 32 plus London, and New York last time I checked.

jimbo32123

hence the reason i said they are stAnd alone competitions, it would mean preliminaries as said in my piece. I feel it would spices the system up and would be OPEN draw all the way, if kerry and tyrone didnt win ulster and munster then they could meet in the preliminary round. if they did, they can still meet in the last 32 or any other round.

Mr. Incognito

right then- open draw all the way- where are your provincial winners coming from then?

or are you playing the provincial championships and then putting everyone into the hat?

what's the point of that.

jimbo32123

let me break this down into really simple terms so. The provincial championships would still run, as i believe they are a vital part of our GAA culture, but would be finished on or before the 2nd weekend of june. Then the 4 provincial winners would be exempt from the preliminary round of the open draw all ireland series. there would be two prelim ties leaving 32 teams to fight it out in an open draw championship

Mr. Incognito

This reminds me of Loretta from Monty Python.

"Well what's the point- he hasn't got a womb, where's the feotus going to gestate?"

So basically you're reward for winning the provincial chamionship and getting knocked out in the first round, is, well, nothing. Your incentive for winning the provincial tie is, well, nothing as the Munster Champions could equally be drawn against the Ulster chamipions or London.

Why would teams bother then, If I was Kerry I'd field a team of minors in the first round, go back to training and wait for everyone else to let their players go get injured in the provincial championship and wait for the open draw.

In addition you are effectivly and single handily destroying rivalries like Meath Dublin., Kerry, Cork Mayo, Galway. Rivalries over 125 years old.

The attendencies would be atrocious for these games, not only would the provincial chamionships be meaningless and as such pointless to watch the open draw will throw up crazy lopsided draws that no-one is going to attend- London Kerry for example- I wouldn't cross the road if the statium was full of naked cheerleaders to watch that, the incentive that brings people to rubbish matches at the moment is neighbourly rivalry. Mayo and Galway could have rubbish teams every year and it would still sell out. If you want evidence of this have a look at the attendences in the 70's when Kerry were winning lopsided semi-finals or last years qualifiers where football and hurling double and triple headers had to be scheduled due to game fatigue and fixture congestions.

And how does an open draw benefit the so called weaker counties, now they get a hammering in one game of the provinces and a hammering in the first game of the open draw.

I won't even go into the maths of the 34 verse 32 in the open draw. You want two preliminary ties, that's 36 teams. I'm sure you meant one.

Look, the only thing that keeps me for ridiculing this idea further and pointing out the inherent flaws further is that it'll never happen.

jimbo32123

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

I won't even go into the maths of the 34 verse 32 in the open draw. You want two preliminary ties, that's 36 teams. I'm sure you meant one.

i accept all your points bar the above, 30 PLUS 4 = 34 ok?? so 30 teams plus 2 = 32 teams there for 4 teams play in the prelims with 2 being knocked out

Agus

yes, that would sound good in theory but has serious problems

Agus

For the moment anyway, I would probably favour the current format with the modifications I suggested on the previous page. But I'm also going to suggest a less conservative option if greater change was wanted. It would aim to help the clubs and have fewer county games but more meaningful games. What would you think of this?

SUMMARY
Phase One Instead of the league, season begins with provincial championships.

Phase Two After that, instead of the league and qualifiers, there is a round-robin style phase with tiers (tier 1 has the top 16 teams).

Phase Three Finally the All-Ireland series.

THE STRUCTURE
Provincial championships
SUMMARY: These are straight knock-out, similar to current format. They are mostly stand-alone tournaments. However, the champions get an advantage for the second phase, and teams who had finished last year outside the top 16 can still get into the first tier through doing well in the provincial championsips.

DETAILS; The 4 champions get all their Phase Two games at home (except if playing another provincial champion team). An incentive to win the provincial championship.

Teams who finished last year outside the top 16 can still qualify for tier 1 by reaching a certain stage (perhaps Connacht / Munster final or Ulster / Leinster semi-finals), displacing the lowest-placed teams who did finish in last year's first tier. (Optionally, teams who had gained promotion from the second tier could be exempt from displacement in this way so as not to devalue the promotion / relegation system). Westmeath in 2007 might have got relegated but by reaching the last 4 in Leinster 2008, they could still make the first tier.

(Optionally adding an extra bit of spice, if a top-16 team played a second-tier team in their first game and lost, they could be out of the first division and replaced by their conquerors. So Wexford 2008 could have been out of the top-16 but by beating Meath got the opportunity to replace them in the top 16).

Phase 2
Provincial champions seeded. They will have the advantage of all games against non-champions being at home.

I've put the top 16 as 2 groups of 8. It could also be straight knock-out or 4 groups of 4.
Similarly there are other options in terms of the structure below tier 1. You could have 2 8-team groups in the second tier, or 4 4-team groups. Or there could be one second and one third tier.

Phase 3
Promotion / Relegation playoffs between the tiers

All-Ireland series Something like Mickey Harte's idea for the quarter-finals, or the system used with great success by Australia's AFL and NRL.
Basically the top 4 play for semi-final places, with the 2 losers getting a second chance against the 2 winners of the second 4

(QF = quarter-final)

QF 1, 2 Group winners against group runners-up
QF playoffs The 2 3rd-placed teams against the 2 4th-placed teams
QF 3,4 The 2 losers of QFs 1 and 2 v the 2 winners of playoffs
Semi-finals; Winners of QFs 1, 2, 3, 4

THE SCHEDULE
Provincial championships over in early April.
Break for a designated club action period
Phase 2 in an intense period May to early July.
Break for a designated club period.
Phase 3.

This will guarantee windows for club action which should help to relieve the problems with fixture congestion, clubs not getting action with their county players etc..

Each county is likely to have fewer games but more meaningful games.



Note that I expect that Phase 2 games wouldn't generate the same interest and attendances as if the same games were played in the provincial championship or All-Ireland series. But what they are replacing is not provincial championship or All-Ireland series games, it's the league and qualifiers. I think they generally speaking should be able to match those. The majority of games will be meaningful - almost every improvement in your position is an advantage. There are particularly important difference between making the group top 2 (big advantage in All-Ireland series), second 2 (make the series), third 2 (stay in the first tier) and fourth 2 (in relegation playoffs).

Stupido

Thats it!

Provincial championships are run off in November - Feb. Keeps the traditionalists happy


A revamped league (with 4 pools of 8, not divisions, with top 4 from each pool progressing to playoffs) becomes the championship!

Every county gets a minimum of 7 games in the championship.

Finalists get to play 11 in total.

Sorted! :cool:

Agus

Stupido wrote: »

Thats it!

Provincial championships are run off in November - Feb. Keeps the traditionalists happy


A revamped league (with 4 pools of 8, not divisions, with top 4 from each pool progressing to playoffs) becomes the championship!

Every county gets a minimum of 7 games in the championship.

Finalists get to play 11 in total.

Sorted! :cool:

:eek: No, I wouldn't agree to those changes to the suggestion.
In particular, the 2 tiers mentioned above are much better than 4 pools because

1 The provincial championships would still have a meaning with teams having the opportunity to get into the first tier - there would actually be a return to tradition in that they have a knock-out element.

2 The 4 pools would have too many meaningless games and unexciting / one-sided fixtures.

Mr. Incognito

I like that system but there is one problem, It's an amatueur game. That's a lot of games for fella's that have to go to work on Monday- you're bringing a championship intensity from January to September- that's 9 months of serious inter-county football.

Phase One Instead of the league, season begins with provincial championships. Provincial championships over in early April.

So this is period- January to April, roughly 4 games for each team.

Phase 2
I've put the top 16 as 2 groups of 8. It could also be straight knock-out or 4 groups of 4.

Phase 2 in an intense period May to early July.

Groups of 8 is 7 games in a 9 week time span. Groups of 4 is three games in 9 weeks- much more manageable.

Phase 3
Promotion / Relegation playoffs between the tiers


Now there's a serious flaw here in that unless you have 8 groups of 4 with the winners progeressing to the last 16 teams are automatically out of the All Ireland series.

The you've last 16- last 8- last 4- last 2 which is another 4 games, after three in the round robin and the provincial championships.

Added to this is the weather for the provincial championships- it's not going to bring out the best football.

The only other serious flaw I can find is teams have no preperation games or time, they are straight into the championship in January without a chance to blood new talent, train or even warm up- they banned inter-country training in November because of player fatigue.

If the game turned pro- I'm all for this with some tweaking, but it's an amateur game and this is just too many games.

Agus

Thanks. With a couple of your concerns maybe you could read it a little more closely as you may have misunderstood what I suggested. I think you're probably right that 4 groups of 4 is better than 2 groups of 8.

"I like that system but there is one problem, It's an amatueur game. That's a lot of games for fella's that have to go to work on Monday- you're bringing a championship intensity from January to September- that's 9 months of serious inter-county football."
Thanks. Well, the provincial championships probably wouldn't start quite as early as that as you still have the pre-season warm-ups like the McKenna cup. Also if you count up the actual number of games overall during the year for each team is actually pretty similar to what you now have. And with the 4 groups of 4 in phase 2 in fact, the provincial championships can start later again.

"Phase One Instead of the league, season begins with provincial championships. Provincial championships over in early April.
So this is period- January to April, roughly 4 games for each team."
Two to four games in the provincial championships. Also warm-up games in the McKenna etc as I said. And with the four groups of 4 you can delay the start of the provincial championships further.

"Phase 2
I've put the top 16 as 2 groups of 8. It could also be straight knock-out or 4 groups of 4.
Phase 2 in an intense period May to early July.
Groups of 8 is 7 games in a 9 week time span. Groups of 4 is three games in 9 weeks- much more manageable. "
You may be right there.

"Phase 3
Promotion / Relegation playoffs between the tiers

"Now there's a serious flaw here in that unless you have 8 groups of 4 with the winners progeressing to the last 16 teams are automatically out of the All Ireland series.
The you've last 16- last 8- last 4- last 2 which is another 4 games, after three in the round robin and the provincial championships. "
You may have misunderstood what I suggested. If you read it again you'll see that the system means no team is automatically out of the All-Ireland series at the start of the season, but this stage still only needs four groups of four. It's the top 16 based on last year's performance plus how well they did in the provincial championship. Every team has a chance to get into the top 16 in the provincial championships. After provincial championships, those that didn't are in a second tier with the chance for promotion. I posted the
details in the original post.

"Added to this is the weather for the provincial championships- it's not going to bring out the best football. "
As I said, they aren't going to start in January, especially with Phase 2 being only three games per county.

"The only other serious flaw I can find is teams have no preperation games or time, they are straight into the championship in January without a chance to blood new talent, train or even warm up- they banned inter-country training in November because of player fatigue. "
As I said, provincial championships wouldn't start as early as that. I never suggested abolishing the pre-season competitions. And if they were felt not to provide enough warm-ups, with 4 groups of 4 there would be time to change the pre-season format to guarantee each county three or four games.

"If the game turned pro- I'm all for this with some tweaking, but it's an amateur game and this is just too many games. "
As I said, if you read it again you'll see the actual number of games is actually similar to the current system. I'll count it up.
Pre-season competitions about 4 games plus championship Phase 2 (4 groups of 4) 3 games. This is actually less than pre-season competitions plus league now is.
Provincial championships plus All-Ireland series is a similar number of games to the current system.
Overall you can see you aren't increasing the number of games.

Does that answer your problems?

Mr. Incognito

Not really,

The main two issues I'd have is that 16 counties are "relegated" out of the last 16 based on last years results or the provinces (one or two games) while the promoted 16 get top team tier round robin games. I can see an emergence of big 16 verses one or two on the cusp and the rest never getting out of the second tier. The beauty of the Championship is that any team can go on a run- like wexford this year, monaghan last year or fermanagh a few years ago. Your incentive or "promotion" with a view to next year is a bit unfair imo. As regards pre-season trainig there is no McKenna cup in Munster and these mickey mouse tournaments do not have as much "bite" as the league at present.

Secondly, and you haven't addressed this point is that you are making every game count for, as I count it (groups of 4) minimum ten games. I think that's not too bad actually but there is an issue of foisting too many championship games onto amatuer sportsmen on top of club commitments. We're already seeing player burn outs and counties peaking early like Donegal or suffering mass injuries like Laois. If you look at Kerry and Tyrone, Dublin- they all have professional conditoning staff so I don't know how this would go down.

Agus

OK, I'll try to address your remaining couple of problems, what do you think?

"The main two issues I'd have is that 16 counties are "relegated" out of the last 16 based on last years results or the provinces (one or two games) while the promoted 16 get top team tier round robin games. I can see an emergence of big 16 verses one or two on the cusp and the rest never getting out of the second tier. The beauty of the Championship is that any team can go on a run- like wexford this year, monaghan last year or fermanagh a few years ago. Your incentive or "promotion" with a view to next year is a bit unfair imo."

Why exactly is it unfair to give the teams who didn't make the last 16 this season a chance to give themselves a place in next year's top 16?
I don't think you will have too much of a "big 16 vs the also-rans" situation more than there already is because it's likely there will be several differenceas in who makes the last 16 each year. First, you have the couple of teams who got promoted last year and are guaranteed their place. Then I would expect that there would be teams who would get in through the provincial championship.
For instance, in 2008 in Munster probably only Kerry and Cork would have reached in the last 16. In 2009, with those two on the same side of the draw, another Munster team would reach the final and get into the 2009 last 16 along with the big two, despite not reaching the 2008 top 16.
Wexford last year would have had their great run in Leinster and thus made the last 16. In the last 16, the Down and Armagh wins would then put them through even if they lost the third group match. Still a great run, and I don't see it as a huge disadvantage in the system.


" As regards pre-season trainig there is no McKenna cup in Munster and these mickey mouse tournaments do not have as much "bite" as the league at present. "

Actually, there is a compeitition called the McGrath Cup in Munster. Maybe you haven't heard of it as Kerry at the moment rarely enter it (presumably they would if it was the only warm-up). And why would these competitions have to have as much bite as the league? All they are is a way to allow teams warm up, blood new players etc. It doesn't really matter if they don't draw big crowds, that's what the championship is for.
If you still don't like it, keep the league instead and split each division into 2 so that there won't be too many games. League final is winner of division 1A v winner of 1B, etc (or if you have semi-finals they would be winners 1A v second 1B, winners 1B v second 1A, etc) .

"Secondly, and you haven't addressed this point is that you are making every game count for, as I count it (groups of 4) minimum ten games. I think that's not too bad actually but there is an issue of foisting too many championship games onto amatuer sportsmen on top of club commitments. We're already seeing player burn outs and counties peaking early like Donegal or suffering mass injuries like Laois. If you look at Kerry and Tyrone, Dublin- they all have professional conditoning staff so I don't know how this would go down."

I don't quite understand this point. How do you get a minimum ten championship games? Surely the minimum is 1 provincial championship game and 3 Phase 2 games whether in the first or second 16? In other words only 4?

Mr. Incognito

Hadn't considered that point on the minimum games.

Why are Kerry and Cork on the same side of the draw in Munster?

It's a pretty good system.

And yet, I still don't like it. I guess I'm just a traditionalist at heart.

I just love the Championship set up as it is. You're idea is probably the best set up if the game turns pro but I have to say in my heart I'd never support it. I guess you either want change or you don't and I suppose the main consideration for me in the championship is that I think it's pretty okay bar the fact you can be beaten and wtill win. In your system, heck you could lose two games and still be crowned All Ireland Champions.

Agus

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

Hadn't considered that point on the minimum games.

Why are Kerry and Cork on the same side of the draw in Munster?

It's a pretty good system.

And yet, I still don't like it. I guess I'm just a traditionalist at heart.

I just love the Championship set up as it is. You're idea is probably the best set up if the game turns pro but I have to say in my heart I'd never support it. I guess you either want change or you don't and I suppose the main consideration for me in the championship is that I think it's pretty okay bar the fact you can be beaten and wtill win. In your system, heck you could lose two games and still be crowned All Ireland Champions.

Well I suppose some people are just traditionalists at heart like you
say...:D Even if it was actually a return to tradition in some ways such as introducing some knock-out element to the provincial championships, it would still be a bit of a change.
I actually proposed more minor changes on the last page.

"Tommy Murphy cup reinstated but this time including only teams that finished in the league bottom 8 and then lost their first championship match. It can be started while the provincial championships are still ongoing. The winners get into the qualifiers.

League champions get a bit of a reward by playing all their championship games at home (except provincial finals and All-Ireland series matches)

Implement the Harte plan to increase the reward for winning the province; the 4 provincial champions play off. The 2 winners get into the semi-finals. The 2 losers get a second chance by playing the top 2 qualifier teams for semi places. That should increase the importance of the provincial championships.

Teams which have already played each other can't meet again in that year's championship. (unless it can't be avoided in the draw, e.g. if both qualified for the final). Avoid "staleness " of teams meeting again and again and too much of having to beat the same team more than once. Kerry v Cork being an obvious example.

Clubs not to have to release their players for county duty on any non-match weekend except the weekend before a senior inter-county championship game"

Would those be too radical for you as well?:D


And the reason Kerry and Cork are on the same side of the draw this year...well how do iyou mean why are they on the same side? They're no longer kept apart., so they just happened to be drawn on the same side. Waterford were drawn against Cork with the winners against Kerry
See
http://www.gaa.ie/page/gaa_football_senior_championship_2009.html

Dapos

Having provincial finals in april! Come on, what about all those sunny (and not so sunny!) munster finals in football and hurling. They still mean alto to many people.

Why are some people obsessed with having this one big championship running from Feb\March to september. Like some have said, a championship this long with that many games would ruin it i think. Interest in the early stages would be reduced along with attendance.

What is wrong with the having more than one GAA national competition. Look at English football, they have a few.

I think the GAA should promote the league more. I like the current league format too (not sure about the knock-out bit yet though)

There have been some decent matchs in the league this year so far. If "weaker teams" want to improve then they have pleanty of games in the league to prepare for the championship. And i don't think it's fair to say the stronger teams don't that the league serious. The likes of kerry/tyrone and killkenny in hurling will be close to the top come the end of the league. They use new players, but they have quality players too to get the results.

So in summary, more promotion of the league (like the dublin v tyrone match) it's a decent competition.

Championship format is far from perfect but it doesn't need any radical changes especially in the football.

P.S. i do think provincal winners should be rewarded better.

Agus

Dapos wrote: »

Having provincial finals in april! Come on, what about all those sunny (and not so sunny!) munster finals in football and hurling. They still mean alto to many people.

Why are some people obsessed with having this one big championship running from Feb\March to september. Like some have said, a championship this long with that many games would ruin it i think. Interest in the early stages would be reduced along with attendance.

What is wrong with the having more than one GAA national competition. Look at English football, they have a few.

I think the GAA should promote the league more. I like the current league format too (not sure about the knock-out bit yet though)

There have been some decent matchs in the league this year so far. If "weaker teams" want to improve then they have pleanty of games in the league to prepare for the championship. And i don't think it's fair to say the stronger teams don't that the league serious. The likes of kerry/tyrone and killkenny in hurling will be close to the top come the end of the league. They use new players, but they have quality players too to get the results.

So in summary, more promotion of the league (like the dublin v tyrone match) it's a decent competition.

Championship format is far from perfect but it doesn't need any radical changes especially in the football.

P.S. i do think provincal winners should be rewarded better.

Well if you read what I said earlier, what I actually favour is the current format with the few tweaks I suggested to reward the provincial winners better etc, not the l[start of edit] "shorter league longer championship'" Re. the other one though, if you read the proposal above, it does NOT involve abolishing the league, just reducing the number of games in it. Also, you say interest in the earlier stages would be reduced. I think it would be up by comparison with the latter half of the league, which would be what you'd compare it with since it's what it would replace. And after all, the minimum is still only 4 games per team. It does NOT involve more games in a season, because the extra championship games are balanced out by fewer league games. [end of edit]
Re. the league, well the Kerrys and Tyrones don't go out there intending to get relegated, but it would be naive to think they care all that much if they don't win it either. As Weeshie Fogarty said, "the league is for playing, the championship is for winning".

Agus

As I said, what I actually favour is the current format with the few tweaks I suggested to make provincial championships more meaningful etc, but I'll just post what the schedule of the longer one eventually turned out as as it seems to have caused confusion.

First the reduced number of games in the league. Then the provincial championships, which would finish in the first half of May.

Window in which clubs would be guaranteed games.

June and start of July - the 3 rounds of Phase 2, when clubs would know they wouldn't have to play.

Club window again

August and September - All-Ireland series.

Dapos

"well the Kerrys and Tyrones don't go out there intending to get relegated, but it would be naive to think they care all that much if they don't win it either. As Weeshie Fogarty said, "the league is for playing, the championship is for winning".

Ya it's true the championship is the one to win, if a team wins the championship and does bad in the league no one cares. But i think it would be naive to think they put in a half arsed effort in the league. As Roy Keane said "Fail to prepare, prepare to fail."

Agus

Dapos wrote: »

"well the Kerrys and Tyrones don't go out there intending to get relegated, but it would be naive to think they care all that much if they don't win it either. As Weeshie Fogarty said, "the league is for playing, the championship is for winning".

Ya it's true the championship is the one to win, if a team wins the championship and does bad in the league no one cares. But i think it would be naive to think they put in a half arsed effort in the league. As Roy Keane said "Fail to prepare, prepare to fail."

Yep, it isn't a case of not caring if they lose every game, but at the same time it's not championship.

Agus

So now that we've extablished that provincial champions would NOT be in April, there would NOT be one big championship from Feb to Sept, and the league would NOT be abolished, do you have any remaining objection?:)

Agus

Mr. Incognito wrote: »

If you have a look at the league winners and the all Ireland winners from 2000 onwards you'll notice that from 2000-2004 it produced the all ireland winners. .

Eh? So you're saying Derry won the 2000 All-Ireland, Mayo were 2001 All-Ireland champions and Tyrone won 2002? The double was only done in 2 of those 5 years from 2000-2004 (Tyrone 03, Kerry 04).
[ In the four seasons since then it's been done only once (Kerry 06)] And in the 1990s it was only done maybe a couple of times I think.