Leinster League....new conditions ??

eoin-dubh

I hear that next season, each team will have to provide a 12th man for umpiring ?

If not, then will field 10 and one to do umpiring ??

can anybody in the know confirm this ?

Must be a lot of strong dub teams out there..............:eek:

randomer

eoin-dubh wrote: »

I hear that next season, each team will have to provide a 12th man for umpiring ?

If not, then will field 10 and one to do umpiring ??

can anybody in the know confirm this ?

Must be a lot of strong dub teams out there..............:eek:

Official umpires are provided for all Senior cricket matches, and most matches in Senior two and Senior three, so this is probably refering to cricket below senior three.

In senior cricket, teams must supply a scorer, otherwise they can be docked points.

eoin-dubh

Yeah, well below senior and middle.......

just about intermediate our first X1........

and both 1's and 2's got relegated last year so should be a tougher summer for the league's worst club !!

hehe

Bobo148

There is a proposal on the table that any matches not covered by the Umpires and Scorers Association would instead be umpired by a 12th person, one provided by each team. That person would stand for the duration of the match. There is the possibility of sanctions should this not be done.

I suggest that you get your club to contact Michael Sharp about this, as he seems to be keeping it a secret all to himself and his (now possibly defunct) committee.

If you object to this, and/or think that it is not workable nor deliverable then now is the time to make the point to the LCU, not two weeks before the season, or after the season starts.

simonrooneyzaga

Most teams in the lower leagues have enough trouble fielding 11 players! Trying to persuade someone to stand out there for 8 hours might be a stretch too far!

TrueDub

simonrooneyzaga wrote: »

Most teams in the lower leagues have enough trouble fielding 11 players! Trying to persuade someone to stand out there for 8 hours might be a stretch too far!

You wouldn't be alone in that belief Simon. As Bobo says above, the only way to change this is for people to get their clubs to approach the Junior Branch about it - nothing will be done if the committee isn't put under pressure.

dereko1969

I think this will be a disaster, it's hard enough usually to get someone to umpire anyway for even a few overs but when that's all they're going to be doing all day when they were hoping to play will be impossible. i know i wouldn't mind doing it once (and given how honest i am i'm fairly sure my team-mates will only let me do it once!) but i could see it being the same 2 or 3 people being 'asked' to do it the whole time. have umpiring seminars been offered to clubs to upskill their players?

TrueDub

dereko1969 wrote: »

i know i wouldn't mind doing it once (and given how honest i am i'm fairly sure my team-mates will only let me do it once!)

You've hit on the reason it's being implemented here though. The standard of "non-neutral" umpiring has descended markedly, and this is the Junior Branch's initiative to solve that. There are significant issues with it, as pointed out by the posters above.

dereko1969 wrote: »

have umpiring seminars been offered to clubs to upskill their players?

Seminars like this are always available - any club simply has to approach the LCUSA to make the arrangements.

legend73

It has been added to the regs as far as I know.

5 points deduction for not fielding a 12th man to umpire for the game.
Another point might be that you can umpire 50% (the opposition) of the game and the square leg can be swapped for another person/s so long as they are registered. So basically doing both ends of an innings.

Don't know how it will pan out, it is a bit harsh and I dont agree that it will raise the standard of umpiring and I can see lots of games being played with 10 players and 5 point deductions.

I would also refuse to be umpired by an oppostion player.... the standard would drop even further and many of the clubs do not have very sportsman like umpires as far as blatant cheating goes. There would be no wides, no no balls, and lbw's galore decisions and teams would be AO for 30.

If they truely wanted to raise the standard they would require each club to supply an umpire for every team and then send them to neutral venues.

cgf

We got a missive from LCU on this.

Basically you now need 12 people to fulfil a fixture from Middle A down. Your umpire must be from within a list of 6 "approved" umpires by the LCU. If not then you are docked 5 points.

This is very short sighted thinking from Junior Branch but then again what's new. Now players will not get any umpiring experience so fewer and fewer will make the jump from playing to umpiring.

What about small clubs with limited playing numbers - zero consideration.
What about "rural" clubs that have a 1 or 2 hour trip to Dublin every 2nd weekend - again zero consideration.
What about large clubs with 4 or 5 junior teams - as it is basically a game every weekend, their designate umpires will have a match nearly every weekend.
What about cup matches - you can't get docked points so do you forfeit the match - again zero consideration
What about if you umpires "cries" off - not that it is easy to replace a player at short notice but what chances to replace an umpire.

I guess what will happen is that there will be plenty of informal arrangements between captains where 'ghost' umpires will take to the field - how will this be regulated - will a member of the LCU visit every match every weekend to validate that umpires actually stand.

Pure madness.

simonrooneyzaga

what a disaster. Someone needs to start an online petition!

legend73

yeah i agree with the later point cgf - i beleive that 'some' teams will come to an arrangment and just keep the games the way they were, unless neutrals are provided. We are already organising our team for a fixture in two weeks and to be honest the only guy who wants to put his hand up for the umpiring gig is steadfast in his opinion and isnt that good of an umpire, in particular with lbw's and line calls. Maybe he will improve a lot! Maybe I'll strangle him after the 1st few games!

So a panel of 6 people for the entire club! That is interesting. I thought it would be 2 per team, so in our case we have 4 teams so a panel of 8. It is a very short sighted approach.

TheDrog

its ridiculous, impractical and only a complete idiot would think that this is a good idea so i'm not suprised they've brought it in. supposedly it's a result of an increase in poor discipline in the lower leagues my guess is that this will make it 10 times worse. Our first match is Easter monday and i would be suprised if there is anyone willing to umpire it even though it's at home. Just another example of things not being thought through

Bobo148

Right lads, there has been a lot said here about how the system will not work and how it was badly put together. That much I agree on.

Would anyone care to suggest how the regulation may be altered in order to effect a more sensible and workable arrangement? It should be recognised that the genie is out of the bottle and we are unlikely to revert to the previous system for 2009.

If we can get some sort of sensible alternative then there may be a way to present it to the LCU.

To be clear the regulation is as follows:
UMPIRING

The Leinster Cricket Umpires & Scorers’ Association will provide umpires for all Senior 2 and 3 league matches and Senior 2 cup matches unless clubs are specifically advised otherwise. In addition the Association will also provide umpires for the semi-finals and finals of the Middle, Middle 2, Intermediate , Junior and Minor Cups. For Middle, Intermediate and Junior League matches, all cup matches at these grades prior to the semi-finals and any games where the LCUSA have advised that it cannot provide umpires, the following applies.

Before the April meeting of the Junior Branch Committee, each club shall supply the Secretary of the Junior Branch with a list of its members (Maximum 6) who are prepared to act as umpires in games involving their club at Middle, Intermediate, Junior or Minor level. Amendments may be submitted to subsequent Junior Branch meetings as for starring lists. A name may also be added to the list at any point but only with the prior approval of the Hon Secretary of the Junior Branch and no person may umpire without such approval. Clubs are entitled to access each others lists.

For league or cup matches at grades below Senior 3, each club shall provide an umpire from their approved list. The persons so chosen must umpire the entire match. Neither can take any part as a player and cannot at any point be replaced by a player in the match. Failure to provide an umpire will result in a penalty of 5 league points for the team in default. If one of the team selected to play in the match is an approved umpire (as per above) and umpires the entire match with only ten players being used, the team will avoid penalty.
The name of the person who has umpired must be given on the result card submitted by the team. Where this is not done, the above penalty will apply.

The Junior Branch Committee will examine lists submitted and approve them or otherwise and advise the club accordingly. The Committee will also, as it sees fit, put in place mechanisms for monitoring the performance of nominated umpires and shall have authority to remove an individual from a list if it feels so justified.

Persons listed should make every effort to attend training courses provided by the Leinster Cricket Umpires and Scorers’ Association. They should ensure they have a good knowledge of the competition regulations and whether or not certain laws apply. For example they should note that the one day wide law does not apply in the grades being covered.

cgf

I understand why they are bringing in this rule, basically to stamp out problems with umpiring standards in some games but let us not forget that the vast majority of games are still umpired fairly by players and played in a good spirit.

With the best of respect to the junior branch, how the fook can they decide whether a name on a list provided by a club is a good umpire or not. Will the JB be able to judge people's ability to umpire. What criteria will they apply? "Ah sure 'Bobo' has played the game for years and is a decent skin" or "Ah sure 'Bobo' is a member of my club and he's sound". What about "unknown" names provided to the JB committee or names put forward by clubs without JB representation - they may be more tightly scrutinised which is unfair.

Anybody "approved" to stand as an umpire in a game should be vetted by the authority that provides umpires i.e. the LCUSA and must have attended some sort of umpiring course and be certified. How else can you approve them to stand in an official ( or semi-official) capacity?

What happens if you come up against a team and their approved umpire is itchy on the finger and triggers your best players? To the other extreme, what if they don't give decisions when you are bowling?
This raises the probability of teams walking off the field or a shoot-out between the umpires. Do we really want to see the game degenerate into this?


If the JB want clubs to establish lists of approved umpires to stand in games, then they should allow clubs time to organise themselves and allow the LCUSA to arrange suitable training. This should be introduced in a controlled manner rather than rushed.

If memory serves me correctly they had a similar list of 8 nominated umpires from clubs a few years back but this was subsequently rescinded (or maybe just ignored) - the designated umpire could play in the game and there was no penalty.


As an aside:
I understand any time spent umpiring as a Junior Branch designated umpire does not count as game-time for any qualified LCUSA umpire which will discourage any formally qualified umpires going forward.


@TheDrog - Who arranged a fixture for ye on Easter Monday - jaysus !!!!!

TheDrog

feckin sandyford, we play them again 2 weeks later :P

legend73

I think the regs have had a tweak.
Each club is recommended to supply 2 umpires per juniour team, although it is a recommendation and there is no maximum to the names that can be supplied.

TheDrog

still probably not going to work but at least they're beginning to realise this as far as i know the club was planning to write in to say that they would be unable to fulfil the requirements

legend73

yes well we have supplied a lengthy list, but have basically also have supplied a letter in respect to where the club stands on the proposal. The intent is right but the implementation is far from right.

dereko1969

how have people found it so far? have clubs been adhering to it? our firsts didn't comply (i never got the call, could've umpired if asked) and it looks like i'll be starting the season off by umpiring a game :mad:
i reckon clubs will just end up agreeing with each other to keep it like previous years. for clubs like mine where we've only 2 teams and struggle at times to have a full team it's going to be really tricky if we don't get our opposition to agree to the 'old' rules.

legend73

Mixed results, we've had volunteers step up (the same volunteer) for our 3 games thus far which is great, but we knew that the burden would fall to a few.

The other teams have had no umpire, had two umpires and the one umpire. We haven't really been asked to arrange anything, just submit the cards with the umpires names on it.

In terms of games our guy is a standing umpire and his standard has been great, but in the last match that was very close the other team did a lot of complaining about line ball decisions. So nothing has changed in this respect.

TheDrog

both sides provided an umpire for the first game (4ths vs Sandyford 4ths)
We had neutral umpires for the second one (3rds vs Bagnalstown) one of the neutrals being the guy legend mentions coincidentallly