Religion and science in primary school.

Overblood

How is religion taught in schools today? Does anybody here have any kids between 1st and 6th class that can tell us? Do they bring home golden nuggets of bullsh!ttery like "my teacher said that jesus made the world!" Do the kids still learn prayers and sing hymns?

I don't remember being taught science in primary school though. Is it taught nowadays?

Goduznt Xzst

I have no recollection of much, if any, religious teaching in my school between 1st and 6th class. That being said I'm pretty sure my teacher was a closet atheist.

My religious teacher in secondary school was a whole different kettle of fish, very catholic, he would show us videos of people dying from aids or suffering from stds to put us off premarital sex. The room was also wallpapered in images of the wrists of people who had tried to commit suicide, the veins of drug addicts or people who had cut themselves while on drugs thinking there where cockroaches under their skin. He had the local priest in at least once every 2 months, which was fun :rolleyes: as he basically just gave a sermon and we weren't even allowed to ask questions.

I remember we had a female subby in one week and the priest came in as usual but at the end of it the subby said "now does the class have any questions for Fr X"... One kid put up his hand and asked some fairly innocuous question and the priest just gave daggers to the teacher and said "the teachings of the church will not be questioned", he stormed out, followed by the subby. Nothing happened for the rest of the class until the bell rang for end of period. As we where all leaving we seen the subby crying and being consoled by the VP. Was great for us though as the priest didn't come back for the rest of the year

Spyral

Depends if you kid goes to a cat-lick school

ChocolateSauce

The closest thing to science we were ever taught was the pathetic and Catholic Church-approved "nature studies", where we'd go and look at all of god's wonderful creations, without actually learning a wink of what they did or how they got there.

Overblood

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

The closest thing to science we were ever taught was the pathetic and Catholic Church-approved "nature studies", where we'd go and look at all of god's wonderful creations, without actually learning a wink of what they did or how they got there.

Ah yeah I remember that. We had to draw leaves and twigs in our notebooks.

I suppose a subject like that could still spark an interest in biology in a young kids mind. But I agree that it wasn't science-orientated enough. I remember thinking as a young lad that all science was about was boiling purple goo in test tubes in a room that had "Laboratory" written on the door.:pac:

ChocolateSauce

Overblood wrote: »

Ah yeah I remember that. We had to draw leaves and twigs in our notebooks.

I suppose a subject like that could still spark an interest in biology in a young kids mind. But I agree that it wasn't science-orientated enough. I remember thinking as a young lad that all science was about was boiling purple goo in test tubes in a room that had "Laboratory" written on the door.:pac:

Hey, I'm very fond of boiling purple goo!:p

nozzferrahhtoo

As I said over in the "I just became an atheist" thread I actually credit my lack of belief to early childhood religious education in school.

From age 6 my teacher in primary read a daily biblical passage. I read a lot myself at that age, all fiction. The bible always just seemed like "Story time" to me and I treated it the same way as the books I was reading at the time.

Never in my life did it ever occur to me to consider any of the stories in or out of the bible to be true. Not once. Even in church. It was quite jaw dropping to me around age 11 I think when it first occurred to me that “hey…. Some people actually _believe_ this stuff?” Even now 19 years later I find myself still in a daze from that initial shock and I ask every believer I ever meet, and using the internet 1000s of people I will never meet…. “Why”.

No one has given me an answer yet. No one has presented me any reason to think this stuff is true. Yet a lot of people do believe it and they attempt to either admonish us to believe it or to conform to things based on it. For this reason I keep looking for reasons to believe it yet no one will offer me one. Ever.

A user over on blog.atheist.ie has blogged her School experiences with religion too if you are interested. It seems to be relevant to what you are asking. Find it here.

Overblood

We seem to be talking about what we remember as youngsters, but I asked about what is happening in schools today! Are our youngsters being taught well regarding religion and science?

MrPudding

Overblood wrote: »

We seem to be talking about what we remember as youngsters, but I asked about what is happening in schools today! Are our youngsters being taught well regarding religion and science?

I mentioned this briefly in another thread, but might be worth repeating it here.

We live int he UK, so not completely relevent, but what the hey. My daughter, who is 10, goes to a private school here in the UK. She came home the other day and told me she had a question. Apparently they were doing the story of Noah in school. The headmistress was taking the class, and according to my daughter, was quite insistant that the story was true. This raised a couple of questions with my daughter, which I have to say I was quite pleased about.

I must admit to having some concerns about this story. I am not going to do anything just yet, but I will be keeping a close eye on what exactly is being told.

MrP

Rev Hellfire

Well my son (7) goes to the local catholic school and from what I can see has a very basic understanding of that particular faith. He has some notion of baby Jesus and Mary, a vague idea of god. But that is about it.

Hardly anything to get getting concerned about, hell prompted by a question on the Christianity forum I asked him who Satan was, to which he replied "some sort of guy from god or something".

If this is the best that the great brainwashing organisation that is the catholic church and religion in general can muster up I'll be sleeping soundly for sure.

Malari

Overblood wrote: »

We seem to be talking about what we remember as youngsters, but I asked about what is happening in schools today! Are our youngsters being taught well regarding religion and science?

I don't think it's changed much. Depends on the school, but most catholic schools will do communion and confirmation "preparation". In my mom's school, nearly all the emphasis is on those two years. Apart from that they do an odd church service every so often, and learn a few religious songs.

I think science teaching has improved greatly though...again depending on the individual teachers.

Goduznt Xzst

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

If this is the best that the great brainwashing organisation that is the catholic church and religion in general can muster up I'll be sleeping soundly for sure.

How did you imagine they would of went about brainwashing your child? Surely it is enough that they are teaching your child the FACT of God and Satan alongside his main education. If a child learns to understand that 2+2=4 and then sees a picture of the earth and is told that the Catholic God made it, how will your child be able to distinguish that one is a belief he doesn't have to accept, and the other has to be accepted.

I'd be interested to see how you would respond if your child was being taught that God definitely DOES NOT exist. How would you respond if your son came home and said "today we learnt that there is no God, Satan, demons or angels and that it is all made up by people". Would you be equally as nonchalant about that?

Rev Hellfire

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

How did you imagine they would of went about brainwashing your child? Surely it is enough that they are teaching your child the FACT of God and Satan alongside his main education. If a child learns to understand that 2+2=4 and then sees a picture of the earth and is told that the Catholic God made it, how will your child be able to distinguish that one is a belief he doesn't have to accept, and the other has to be accepted.

Somehow I don't see that been a problem, lets put it like this he already accepts the principles of evolution. Sure he doesn't have a firm understanding he's a kid, but he fully accepts people and apes, dinosaurs.
I've yet to hear anything been taught that is contrary to current scientific thought.

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

I'd be interested to see how you would respond if your child was being taught that God definitely DOES NOT exist. How would you respond if your son came home and said "today we learnt that there is no God, Satan, demons or angels and that it is all made up by people". Would you be equally as nonchalant about that?

I don't see religion as the big boggieman some people do.
Since I don't accept the concept of god as given by Christianity, Islam, etc. I'd have no beef with someone saying to him there no 'Christian' god.

Actually thats maybe not strictly true, I've be not quite pleased since its like santa. Its something for him to determine on his own. Added to which I'd wonder why the teacher was saying such a thing in a catholic school in the first place, breach of trust would be the issue, rather than some notion of the truth.

Goduznt Xzst

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I don't see religion as the big boggieman some people do.
Since I don't accept the concept of god as given by Christianity, Islam, etc. I'd have no beef with someone saying to him there no 'Christian' god.

Actually thats maybe not strictly true, I've be not quite pleased since its like santa. Its something for him to determine on his own. Added to which I'd wonder why the teacher was saying such a thing in a catholic school in the first place, breach of trust would be the issue, rather than some notion of the truth.

My point is that you have no problem with your son being taught the absolute of Gods existence by Catholics, but you would have a problem with him being taught the absolute that God does not exist. Like you said, it's like Santa. Santas existence should not be taught to kids as fact in schools, nor should Gods existence, it should be left up to parents to get their child to ask that question for themselves.

I am completely in agreement that your son should make this choice for himself, which is why it would be a problem if somebody else was trying to influence my childs choice by giving him the biased opinion that God definitely exists. I doubt a Catholic school will teach your son that God probably exists.

Rev Hellfire

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

My point is that you have no problem with your son being taught the absolute of Gods existence by Catholics, but you would have a problem with him being taught the absolute that God does not exist. Like you said, it's like Santa. Santas existence should not be taught to kids as fact in schools, nor should Gods existence, it should be left up to parents to get their child to ask that question for themselves.

Actually I wouldn't have a problem with the non-existence of god been taught, assuming that was the nature of the school. Its really a non-issue for me, it simply is unimportant in the grand scheme of things.

I'd disagree with you on the idea that Santa shouldn't be perpetuated in schools, and would be quite annoyed if a teacher dispelled that particular idea.
I would be similarly annoyed if someone said the same about god to them, but like Santa it not for some notion of truth. I just happen to think its a nice notion for kids and no harm done. ( I would expect you disagree with that, but hey it takes all sorts to make a world : )

I think though that an eclectic mix when it comes to religious education would be better once kids get older and enter secondary schools.

WEST

Overblood wrote: »

How is religion taught in schools today? Does anybody here have any kids between 1st and 6th class that can tell us? Do they bring home golden nuggets of bullsh!ttery like "my teacher said that jesus made the world!" Do the kids still learn prayers and sing hymns?

I don't remember being taught science in primary school though. Is it taught nowadays?

I have a friend that teaches and she was telling me religion plays a large role in her class in keeping the kids disciplined. The kids are lead to believe that they will go to hell if they do anything bad. She told me how one girl in her class was held in a head lock by another kid. My teacher friend saw this and got the two kids to apologise to each other and to go their separate ways.
The next day the girls mother calls in to say her daughter is too upset to go to school. All the kids were due to do communion and the mother explained how her daughter thought she was going to hell since she got into a fight and therefore had sinned before she did her communion.

I thought her story a little unsettling. I must check if she teaches in a Catholic school, I hate to think most kids in Ireland are taught if you do wrong, its burning in hell for you.

Rev. Kitchen

They are being tought the truth that God made the world in 6 days then had a nice day off it was made 5000 years ago and if you dont agree you hate America.

Dades

Hmmm. Fortunately the reality is less controversial than that.

GirlInterrupted

Spyral wrote: »

Depends if you kid goes to a cat-lick school

Its taught daily in all religious-run schools. Science is also taught, but not in any detail in terms of evolution (or creationism), yet.

If the teacher is an atheist, they have to keep it to themselves as the Irish government has granted an exemption to religious run schools regarding the employment of teachers of other faiths, or of none.

Put simply, an Atheist teacher applying for employment in a religious run school has to lie, implicitly or explicitly, or face being summarily exempted from consideration for the job.

These schools accept money from the government to educate the children of this country, and that money is paid to the government by persons of all faiths or of none in the form of taxes.

The schools then expect to have the right to exclude the children of atheists or of other faiths, and yet those tax monies paid will not be refunded.

This is either blackmail or robbery, and probably both.

brendanb586

here's my experience currently having a basket of kids from junior infants to 6th class in the local state (catholic ethos) school:

• Everyday starts with a mandatory prayer, & one session of religion during the day for a half an hour.
• The prayer is usually sung - our younger kids refrain these throughout the day, mumbling the words.
• During the religion session (there is an abbreviation for it), any child who's parents sent an "opt-out" letter remain in their seats, while the rest of the class read and act out "alive-o" together - this process is the same for all years, with the opt-out activity changing from colouring to writing. It is not punitive, but it lets the other kids know who is different.

The level of influence from school depends on the teacher - the elder children seem to have had an understanding of the birth process & evolution, but are sometimes hit with a good dose of brainwashing. Around fourth or fifth class, the "Alive-O" books were taught seriously by a catholic teacher - the kids said they would be "given out to" if they questioned it - the part they were not allowed to question was about all humans being created from mud, as 10 year olds, they found non-sensical, but still believed the teacher, and the origins of humans had to be re-explained.

The preparation for sacrements treats kids in a similar manner, with "opt-outs" having to watch as the rest of the class prepare for around an hour a day up to a month beforehand. Also, they have never once discussed the other kids parents' religion in class discussion - formally or informally (we asked).

How science is treated also at the behest of the teacher, but luckily it is mandatory (another abbreviation for this, which is like the religion one). Their current teachers are pro-science, and they install some passion into thinking, even discussing evolution once, but we have had too many years of terrible 'biblical science' teaching to count.

btw: we didn't send in "opt-outs", so they take part in everything; we were forced to baptise the elder kids shortly before they started (otherwise, they wouldn't be admissed), but filled in 'no religion' on their applications regardless. The younger kids had the leverage of the older kids being in the school, so no baptism was required (even though it was requested!). So, none of the kids have a religion assigned to them on the school records and they are still treated as 'catholics' until we send in a letter asking can they be excused from brainwashing.

Every class has at least 2 'opt-out' non-catholics (or catholics - I don't know), and interestingly at least one child of 'islamic' families who doesn't opt-out.

It might seem painless, but having to constantly fight against 6 hours of influence in the short time we get after a few hours on the M50, over 8 years can take it's toll. Hopefully all this will change, but while schools are forced by the constitution to be ethosed, it cannot. We will see how they are treated to the local community school, which was hijacked by the church after it opened.

Anyone any suggestions as to how to get the system to treat kids as equals, and not targets for religions?

Mena

I'm quite glad we have an ED school down the road from us. I've been pretty happy with them so far, none of this mumbo-jumbo there (so far).

Lollipops23

my two kid bros are still in primary, one in 6th class the other in 2nd. the older one has decided (off his own bat!) that he doesn't believe in religion anymore and has decided not to make his confo, the teacher has been ok about it,though i'd love to know what he's doing when the other kids are being prepped for the day.

the lil fella in 1st class has started coming home asking questions about sinning and heaven lately, don't think he's copped on about the older guy refusing to make his confo!

Zillah

Goduznt Xzst wrote: »

My religious teacher in secondary school was a whole different kettle of fish, very catholic, he would show us videos of people dying from aids or suffering from stds to put us off premarital sex. The room was also wallpapered in images of the wrists of people who had tried to commit suicide, the veins of drug addicts or people who had cut themselves while on drugs thinking there where cockroaches under their skin.

Jesus.

Mickeroo

brendanb586 wrote: »

here's my experience currently having a basket of kids from junior infants to 6th class in the local state (catholic ethos) school:

• Everyday starts with a mandatory prayer, & one session of religion during the day for a half an hour.
• The prayer is usually sung - our younger kids refrain these throughout the day, mumbling the words.
• During the religion session (there is an abbreviation for it), any child who's parents sent an "opt-out" letter remain in their seats, while the rest of the class read and act out "alive-o" together - this process is the same for all years, with the opt-out activity changing from colouring to writing. It is not punitive, but it lets the other kids know who is different.

The level of influence from school depends on the teacher - the elder children seem to have had an understanding of the birth process & evolution, but are sometimes hit with a good dose of brainwashing. Around fourth or fifth class, the "Alive-O" books were taught seriously by a catholic teacher - the kids said they would be "given out to" if they questioned it - the part they were not allowed to question was about all humans being created from mud, as 10 year olds, they found non-sensical, but still believed the teacher, and the origins of humans had to be re-explained.

The preparation for sacrements treats kids in a similar manner, with "opt-outs" having to watch as the rest of the class prepare for around an hour a day up to a month beforehand. Also, they have never once discussed the other kids parents' religion in class discussion - formally or informally (we asked).

How science is treated also at the behest of the teacher, but luckily it is mandatory (another abbreviation for this, which is like the religion one). Their current teachers are pro-science, and they install some passion into thinking, even discussing evolution once, but we have had too many years of terrible 'biblical science' teaching to count.

btw: we didn't send in "opt-outs", so they take part in everything; we were forced to baptise the elder kids shortly before they started (otherwise, they wouldn't be admissed), but filled in 'no religion' on their applications regardless. The younger kids had the leverage of the older kids being in the school, so no baptism was required (even though it was requested!). So, none of the kids have a religion assigned to them on the school records and they are still treated as 'catholics' until we send in a letter asking can they be excused from brainwashing.

Every class has at least 2 'opt-out' non-catholics (or catholics - I don't know), and interestingly at least one child of 'islamic' families who doesn't opt-out.

It might seem painless, but having to constantly fight against 6 hours of influence in the short time we get after a few hours on the M50, over 8 years can take it's toll. Hopefully all this will change, but while schools are forced by the constitution to be ethosed, it cannot. We will see how they are treated to the local community school, which was hijacked by the church after it opened.

Anyone any suggestions as to how to get the system to treat kids as equals, and not targets for religions?

It's ridiculous you hve to go through all that in this day and age :mad: