Signing off - stage payment & Cert. Compliance

BERarchtech · 16-02-2009 7:37pm #1

some very good points made here folks.

I wonder if anyone might have a go at this one. I'm an arch technologist and I've done plenty houses etc privately aswell as tones of commercial/healthcare etc etc projects in the different offices Ive worked.

Privately I usually only get the client through planning and leave it at that. most clients just get a builder they know and it runs smoothly. Recently I was asked to to interim stage payment certs for a clients mortgage payments. I've never done these privately so I was wondering if there was anything I can get caught out on? i.e if the roof fell in after I signed the last payment cert does it come back to me? As I understand I would be signing that the work had been done in order for the bank to release the money. I wouldnt be signing a cert of compliance with planning or bld regs etc. can anyone help? any ideas how much the usual price for 4/5 certs would be?

also on the pricing debate I've often been asked for quotes and I've been laughed at because the client says they have someone else offering 800 or something stupid and they end up with a terrible looking "catalog" house. you really get what you pay for!

muffler · 16-02-2009 8:28pm

First thing is do you have PI insurance?

Poor Uncle Tom · 16-02-2009 8:31pm

And most of the interim forms have a box for you to tick to say the building and works to present stage are in compliance with planning permission and building regulations.

muffler · 16-02-2009 8:44pm

BERarchtech wrote: »

Recently I was asked to to interim stage payment certs for a clients mortgage payments.

Just picking up on this point - are you saying that you haven't inspected the foundations? If you havent then there could be problems both for yourself and your client (regarding the mortgage payment)

If its registered under HomeBond then it may be OK

BERarchtech · 16-02-2009 8:52pm

muffler wrote: »

First thing is do you have PI insurance?

yes. and I'm registered with the RIAI as a RIAI TECH member.....................

and no I haven't inspected the foundations but the work hasn't begun fully yet I've been told

Poor Uncle Tom · 16-02-2009 8:56pm

muffler wrote: »

......If its registered under HomeBond then it may be OK

or PREMIER.

muffler · 16-02-2009 10:28pm

Poor Uncle Tom wrote: »

or PREMIER.

They dont migrate to the northern hemisphere

ConfusedTech · 17-02-2009 9:52am

Berarchtech, I would suggest that you be very careful providing full services or certification of projects if you dont fully understand the requirements. This forum will be great for advice, but remember that many of the posts are opinions, or just comments, so dont put your house on them!!! Firstly, you should have PI insurance, as this will protect you personally if something should go wrong. Secondly, if you are certifying work, then you need to be qualified to do so, and will be held responsible for it. That said, there are ways around this, but the only safe approach is to understand that if you sign off, or give an incorrect professional opinion, or cert, then you will be held responsible for that and yes it could end up in court. Thirdly, If the certs are for the bank, check that the bank will accept your signiture. For example, the AIB are now very strict on this and other banks are following suit. They wont accept a signed cert from an Arch Tech. See other forums for the issues on this.

To be honest, I think that you need also to understand the reason we sign off on works. In my opinion, it would be crucial that the person signing the certs of compliance with building regulations and planning, is also the person who signs the certs and visits the sites, inspects the foundations etc. The reality is that we are signing that the works are done and done properly. For example, who will be signing the certs of compliance at the end? Will they be on site for teh duration of the project? If not, then the build and the client is at risk that the project may not be built properly, and it really does not matter how good the builder is!

Sorry for being negative, but I think that it is important to realise the importance of your role in this one, and not see it just as a form filling excercise.

muffler · 17-02-2009 10:04am

OK then. I have moved this over to tidy up the thread.

Poor Uncle Tom · 17-02-2009 1:23pm

muffler wrote: »

They dont migrate to the northern hemisphere

Well you live and learn...:)

Builderfromhell · 17-02-2009 9:51pm

I have supervised and certified a few builds and frankly I rarely find the fees sufficient to justify the costs;
1. Driving to and from site.
2. Answering endless questions from clients eventhough already made clear in wrtitng that I'm only doing stage payment certification.
3. Cost of profeesional indenity insurance divided by number of jobs per year. I am aware that as designers you need P.I. for that also.
4. Trying to come up with solutions or advise when things are done wrong. For example I arrived on site recently where powerfloater had ripped edges of Radon barrier all over. Strictly speaking I refuse to certify work and client and builder fight. Reality is you get drawn into offering opinions on solutions or suggesting solutions. This is only one of many examples. Others include;
- House not located on site exactly as per site layout. Floor level not as Site layout.
- Hedgerow removed when Planning conditions requires its retention.
- Chimney not built properly, Direct labour job, blocklayer paid and gone.
ETC, ETC.

BERarchtech · 18-02-2009 2:16pm

thanks very much folks.

I think I'll stick to planning and design work for a while. I passed on the cert job to a work mate of mine but the client said he had someone else to do the certs for €120 per cert so my buddy walked away. At that price I reckon its definately not worth the hasle!

have another friend that advised me never to certify works being done by direct labour as he's had some nightmares in the past! :eek:

anyway Thanks for all your advice! hope busniess is going well for everyone!

Quazzie · 18-02-2009 3:29pm

BERarchtech wrote: »

but the client said he had someone else to do the certs for €120 per cert

I know someone who got his done. Its an absolute joke. The person who issued the cert never even seen the house and the cert of compliance and all signing off for the mortgage arrived in the post.

BERarchtech · 19-02-2009 8:52am

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

I know someone who got his done. Its an absolute joke. The person who issued the cert never even seen the house and the cert of compliance and all signing off for the mortgage arrived in the post.

I think this happens quite a bit. while I was looking into the subject I asked around a lot of architects I know and I heard stories of one guy with his own practice thats known for signing the certs from his office! the house mightn't even have been started and he's happy to sign away! he's pretty "old school" alright but thats just scary really! :eek:

RKQ · 19-02-2009 10:17am

BERarchtech wrote: »

I heard stories of one guy with his own practice thats known for signing the certs from his office! the house mightn't even have been started and he's happy to sign away! he's pretty "old school" alright but thats just scary really! :eek:

Crazy, why is this tolerated?
(I hope this isn't true, just a bad rumour! - people like this do so much damage to us all)

How does he sleep at night?:eek:
Eventually the "silly signing" of Certs will come back to haunt him.

Marlar · 19-02-2009 12:20pm

I think you would need to get your client to check with their mortgage lender if you can sign the certs.

We are almost finished our house and our architect has signed the certs but he queried it at first as on one of his other projects the bank wanted an engineer to sign off an not an architect.

ConfusedTech · 19-02-2009 3:39pm

I have heard of a sign off cert issued at the start of a job. Somebody did visit the site, and it was a Greenfield site, still. Sorry RKQ, it is happening, and too much for my likin' as it gives us all a bad name...

No6 · 19-02-2009 5:00pm

In regards to certs of compliance around here they vary from being correct and above board (mine!!:D) to not being worth the paper they are written on, I have frequently had to get retention for a development for changes made during construction and for which the original supervising engineer has signed off on, copies of the certs have been supplied expensive toliet paper to my mind. :eek: Although the biggest problem I have around here with certs is the client leaves a little bit of the mortgage not drawn down so they are not needed (for a few years!!) and I don't get paid (for a few more years!!):eek:

muffler · 19-02-2009 6:28pm

No6 wrote: »

In regards to certs of compliance around here they vary from being correct and above board (mine!!:D) to not being worth the paper they are written on

Very much the same here in Donegal

Poor Uncle Tom · 19-02-2009 7:19pm

I've seen site purchase released before works begin, based on seen valuation of site by auctioneer/valuer. But that is purchase price, seperate to build cost.

My general rule for setting stage payments and releasing stages is only release what is needed and always leave enough in case another contractor had to come in and finish the works.

What gets my goat is finding out that the bank/building society has released more or less then you asked for, or if the client/bank try to change the amount of set stage payments, (both of which have happened before).

How many of you have had to step back and distance yourselves from a job because of attempted interference from clients, solicitors, third parties?

Signing off - stage payment & Cert. Compliance

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