B&W Speakers

cheapskate

Hi,

Why all the secrecy, does anyone know of a site where the B&W range are listed with prices

A mate of mine an audioholic has a pair of 805's (his pride and joy) and he says he can't remember how much they were?! (he purchased in cloney audio years back)

I having heard them would love to get a pair along with a b&w centre and sub for a 3.1 to start with (couldn't afford the 5.1 let alone 7.1/9.1 yet)

Thanks,

CS

Idleater

Would this be of any use?

Cloney are doing quite good deals re £/€ conversion, availability is generally good and I have found the service excellent.

Ive now got a pretty much full B&W/Rotel setup which I am very much enjoying.

Your suggested upgrade path is a sensible one, and depending on your listening room and speaker choice, you might not even need the .1 (or the centre). I run cd on analogue bypass to two XT2's and only switch to digital for HDCD/SACD which includes the sub.

cheapskate

Hi Nereid,

Thanks for the link, it's a start, I'd like to get a price of the HTM4S and the ASW825/855

I'm sure it will be heart stopping the price but as you say I mightn't need the centre immediately.

Thanks for that,

CS

viperirl

cheapskate wrote: »

......I'd like to get a price of the HTM4S and the ASW825/855

I'm sure it will be heart stopping the price but as you say I mightn't need the centre immediately.

CS

As far as I can remember, the price for the HTM4S is around about the same as the 805S. I dont know about the sub price but I do have a price list from Cloneys lying around somewhere so I'll see if I can locate it. Its 2 years old though so probably does not reflect todays prices.

If you are thinking of a pair of 805's, just remember that like all of the B&W 800 series, they really need very very good amplification in order to get them to shine. The impedence of the 805's drop to around 3.5ohms(the HTM4S can drop below 3 ohms), so if you are playing at high volumes, they will place high current demands on your amp. The 805's deserve a proper 2 channel amp, which you can integrate with an AV reciever without too much trouble. As a minimum, I'd lool at the likes of Rotel, which happen to match well with B&W gear.

Yes, you could hook these speakers up to a basic AV reciever and they will give you a nice sound indeed, but crank up the volume and the reciever may cut out or the sound may start to distort or clip. You dont want to be damaging your speakers.

On the subject of surround speakers or leaving out the centre, well I'd be more inclined to go for the HTM4S centre. A pair of 805S and a HTM4S are a perfect match across the front. You can then go for cheaper surrounds. Most of the sound from HT come from the front channels.
However, if you always sit central between your front speakers during movies then you might get away with not having a centre and just telling the receiver/pro that you have no centre speaker.

If you to listen music a lot, the 805's are a great performer here also.

Anyway, I thought I'd just chip in with my 2 cents since I've auditioned some of the B&W 800 series speakers for quite some time in the last few years.

c-note

my father bought 805 signatures about 4 years ago.
got nice pre and power amps and cd deck and tuner.
cant remember did the lot come to €3000 or was it €3000 just for the 805's,
i thought he was mad, but the quality blows me away everytime i listen to them.

i also get frustrated when you cant find prices on the net.
i think the bones of it is, if you need to know, you cant afford it!:D

viperirl

c-note wrote: »

my father bought 805 signatures about 4 years ago.
got nice pre and power amps and cd deck and tuner.
cant remember did the lot come to €3000 or was it €3000 just for the 805's,
i thought he was mad, but the quality blows me away everytime i listen to them.

i also get frustrated when you cant find prices on the net.
i think the bones of it is, if you need to know, you cant afford it!:D

4 years ago, I'd say he paid 3000 for the speakers plus their stands assuming it was all brand new. I bet the rest of the gear probably cost as much. As a matter of interest what type of amps/player did he get? This might give the OP and idea of what to be thinking of if he is looking at 805's.

Yes, its mad money but once you dip your toe into high end audio, the bug bites as I've found out but well worth it I think.

cheapskate

Hi Viperirl, c-note,

Thanks for your input, I don't mind spending money on quality but I don't want to buy twice, If I got a good Quality Receiver (Pioneer SCLX81) would this suffice?
I like music but I'm more into movies so I don't want to have to buy a seperate Amp.
I saw the price of the 805s on Nereid's link - £1565 and add 10% = £1721 in Cloney audio as Viperirl reckons the HTM4S is similar and I think the ASW825 is £1000+ this equates to £5000 approx ( as c-note says if you have to ask...)

But I like the idea of building up a quality system rather than buying a mediocre 5.1 system and then buying a better one in a few years, I'd imagine that quality speakers never go out of date...Really!

CS

viperirl

I've just looked at the specs for the Pioneer. Despite the specs saying it gives 190W per channel, there is no way that it will offer this power in normal conditions with all channels flat out. I think it will drive the 805's without too much trouble if you set the speakers to 'small' in the reciever settings. Its in the bass region where the impedence of the B&W 800 series usually dips so by using such settings, all the heavy bass will be sent to the sub instead.

How would you split the HT/music importance? i.e 70/30%

I'm sure the Pioneer is a capable amp but I reckon it would not have the quality to get the very best out of the 805s. It will still sound great I think but not in the same league that a good 2 channel amp would grip them.

Are the 805s a must for you?
How loud would you play when viewing movies?
I take it that your budget is around the 5K mark, correct?

Its a slight drawback of the 800 series speakers in that they need top amps to get the best out of them. There are other speaker brands available here that will give you just as good performance as 805s such as 'System Audio' or 'ProAc' without the need to spend a lot on top amps. Maybe this is a better option for you.

Perhaps give Cloneys a call and they'll be able to tell you if the Pioneer is ok for the 805's + HTM4S.
I'm sure a few other guys here will give their opinions or suggest some alternatives.

cheapskate

Hi Viperirl,

I guess my usage would be approx 70/30, To be honest I didn't realise how expensive the 800 series was, I had originally thought I'd get a 5.1 setup for about 4 - 5K euro!
I was originally looking at the MT 30 matched to a Denon 1909 amp but then I decided I'd prefer function over style so I knew I'd have to spend considerably more if I wanted to stay with the same brand (I don't like the look of the 600 series)
I'm not into very loud but I don't have many neighbours out here in the sticks to complain
I think I'll contact Cloney Audio and see what they can do for me for 5K!

Thanks again

CS

viperirl

well, its depends how you want to distribute your budget among the various components. I'd put most of you budget on the front and centre speakers with the appropriate amplification. Perhaps pick up second hand stuff or lower grade speakers for the surrounds. In future, you can upgrade these.
Not sure if you really need to spend 1K on a subwoofer unless your living room is very big. I havent looked at subs in quite a while so I cant really recommend anything here but the 'For Sale' section on Cloneys website has a REL Stadium sub going for 150Euro!!! Not sure why its so cheap or what condition its in but it was one hell of a sub when I heard a similar one a few years ago.

Also, dont forget about good speaker cable. You dont need to spend silly money here but dont skimp either at the same time.

Idleater

As regards power amplification the new Rotel 15 series is pretty good in a €/power quality scale.

I like the sound from the class D's and I think the 1572 2x250w would have enough power for the 805's. You could go to the 1091/1092 (500w mono or 2x 500w stereo) but I think the 15 series is cheaper than the 10.

They haven't released any stereo preamps in the 15 series yet so you are "limited" to the surround sound ones. All my equipment is in a cupboard so I don't mind a mix match of different looking components, but if it is prominently on display then that might be a factor.

I'd definitely leave out the sub till you hear what the front's can do on their own. That way you can put money to better use (less comprimises) as viperirl has pointed out.

Here is a good forum that have "club" sections for B&W and Rotel. A lot of people there have setup's similar to what is being asked for here so you might get some pointers

viperirl

Hi Cheapskate,

I've been thinking about other options for you. Rather than go with an expensive HD AV receiver(the Pioneer) which may not get the best out of a pair of 805's, perhaps u should go with a cheaper HD AV reciever and use a high end integrated or power amp in tow to drive the 805's to the level that they deserve.
Looking around on adverts, I've seen a Krell Kav300i amp going for around 900Euro and on cloneys site there is a Primare A30.2 power amp going for around the same price. Both of these amps will have no problems driving a pair of 805's.
I've listened to the Primare before and to the newer brother of the Krell300i, the Krell400i. Both sound great with the 805's.
Soundwise here, my preference would be the Krell but its up to you to listen to both and decide for yourself.

That leaves you needing an amp for the HTM4. I dont think a 'cheap' receiver is good enough here so maybe you could leave out the the centre speaker for now until you can afford both it and a good mono power amp.


Anyway, if your heart is set on a pair of 805's, the above approach I think is pretty good.


Dave

cheapskate

Hi Guys,

Been out to Blackrock since, spoke to Ivan in Cloney audio, He recommends to suit my budget; 805s and Htm4s in front with 685s at rear with an ASW610 in a 5.1 configuration Powered by a 5 channel Rotel.

When I say suit my budget this exceeds my budget by quite a bit, It seems prices have gone up since in the UK which effect Irish prices!

Of course I'd like to get the PV1 instead of the 610 which doubles the sub price.

Would it be a waste to just get the 805s, the HTM4s and the PV1 and wait till I can afford a second pair of 805s for the rear or is it a waste putting 805s at the rear

Ivan also recommended the dedicated stands which add a grand to the cost - is this necessary?

Don't get me wrong Ivan did listen to what I wanted and was very helpful but I was like a boy in a sweet shop...

Thanks,

CS

viperirl

Hi CS,

I think stands are necessary for a speaker like the 805. They do need to be standing in their own space for maximum effect. Ideally you want your speaker on a solid foundation so that the energy generated within is moving the air out in front rather than causing the speaker to vibrate or move around.

If movies are your concern then I think an extra pair of 805s at the rears might be overkill. A pair of cheaper dipoles might give you a better surround affect and you can put the extra part of your budget elsewhere.


Whatever you do, make sure you get to audition the stuff in your own home. The room interaction is so important.


D

Slaphead07

cheapskate wrote: »

Hi Guys,

Been out to Blackrock since, spoke to Ivan in Cloney audio,

Did you consider 2nd hand speakers? I know Cloney have a good range of demo/trade-in speakers at the moment and you'd get a good deal on 2 fronts, 2 rears and a centre. They also have a REL sub there for sensible money.

cheapskate

Hi Slaphead,

Hand me downs, me... Eh yea that would be great so long as they are in good nick and are reasonable!
But to be honest if I'm only going to save a few quid then I'd prefer the shiny new ones.
Ivan said the 700 series is being done away with so the alternative is the 684s or the preferred 805s

Thanks again, I'll just have to make up my mind (how much to spend)

CS

cheapskate

Jeeze,

After adding up everything the yamaha sound bar seems mighty enticing!

CS

viperirl

cheapskate wrote: »

.. Eh yea that would be great so long as they are in good nick and are reasonable!
But to be honest if I'm only going to save a few quid then I'd prefer the shiny new ones.
CS

I'd certainly consider 2nd hand kit too and I've pointed to a few examples in previous posts on this thread. 2nd hand kit at this level is usually very well looked after and can perform just as well as new kit. You'd be surprised what savings you can make by going this route.

Not too sure about the sound bar idea. I believe that they are very room dependant. It wont be anywhere near as good as a proper 5.1 system but try it out and see for yourself.

Slaphead07

cheapskate wrote: »

Hi Slaphead,

Hand me downs, me... Eh yea that would be great so long as they are in good nick and are reasonable!

Given the sort of customers Cloney have (I think I know most of them!) you're pretty sure they'll be well looked after. You might spend the same amount in the end but you get "better bang for your buck". Looked after speakers get better with age and frankly I can't remember the last time I bought a new pair (for context my current ones would be €10,000 new).
By the way be careful with the amp you use with B&Ws. They sound very harsh with the wrong amp and it's often hard to find a right one!

Idleater

cheapskate wrote: »

Powered by a 5 channel Rotel.

Which one if you don't mind me asking? I am very happy with my 1565. I use it for the surrounds and it is hardly stressed, but excellent.

If it were me, I'd leave out the surround channels, and get the front 3. The 610 is nice, but I'd prefer the pv1 myself personally.

Slaphead07

Ah, thanks to Nerid above I now see you'll be using a Rotel AV amp. That'll work well but avoid any silver in speaker cable or interconnects... it will add harshness and glare.

cheapskate

Thanks Guys,

Your input is invaluable in helping me choose.

Nereid, I think it was the RSX 1550 and the RB 1572 (2 ch Amp) for the 805s

I'll ask them what 2nd hand stock they have too, I know they had an ASW800 Sub, I couldn't get over the size of these monsters

CS

Idleater

cheapskate wrote: »

Nereid, I think it was the RSX 1550 and the RB 1572 (2 ch Amp) for the 805s

Excellent idea. You'd better check though that you can allocate the channels on the 1550 to surround duties and specify an external power amp for the fronts. I presume you can do this, but some amps are finicky when it comes to this. For instance, I don't thing you can bi-amp the channels in the 1550 (eg for the centre) so you will effectively have the ability to drive a 7.1 set-up.

I have the same configuration as yourself (seperate 2 channel amp for the fronts), and I really like it. Where it really shines is when using the absolutely astounding analogue bypass. I run analogue from the cd player through the cd bypass to the 2 channel power amp. No fuss, no signal degradation, just original audio.

The thing to note with this though is that analog bypass does not cater for subwoofers. It sends the left and right signals to the speakers.
The sub management etc kicks in when you switch on the digital processing.

Hence why I said you _could_ survive without a sub. It is certainly worth a listen without one.

The multi channel input also has an analogue bypass, if you have a good SACD/BD player.

If you wouldn't mind, would you post or pm me the price you got for the 1572?

L.

cheapskate

Hi Nereid,

I didn't actually get a quote on the either amp as he wasn't sure what they cost with the new prices but he reckoned 1400 for the 1550 and he said this should be fine but when I suggested that I had hoped to get a 7.1 capable receiver he then said pairing it with the 1572 would be ideal.

I think you might be right though, I think I'll get the 805S and HTM4S with the Rotel amp to start with and maybe the PV1 later

How much was the 1565?

CS

cheapskate

All,

Thanks for all your input, it has been invaluable! unfortunately though I've been doing some hard thinking and I'm going to hold off on these for a while.

(as the costs spiral upwards, I've had to rethink -> €6-7000 + a 50" Kuro on the way from Richer sounds)
I'll take your points on board though and when I do decide to take the plunge I'll be better informed.

B&W Panorama or Yamaha sound bar?

CS

cheapskate

Hi,

After some consultation with the Cloney Audio guys I've decided to go with the FPM Speakers 5's Left/Right & 6 center they match my KRP 500A perfectly and the PV1 sounds awesome
There supposed to be similar to the 685's in output (couldn't stretch to the 805S) I'll have M1's for rears
Trying to decide now whether I should power them with the Rotel, Pioneer or the Sony Amp ( I know I can hear you all shouting down the Sony but I've ordered the Sony ES Blu ray)
Anyway just thought I'd let you know!

Thanks again,

CS

viperirl

B&W and Rotel fall under the same parent company so there may be well some consultation between the two in the design stakes or testing.
B&W generally go very well with the likes of Classe, Krell, Rotel, McIntosh and Mark Levinson amps..........well the 800 series do anyway.
The Sony ES Blu-Ray is a good unit and Sony do make some very good players. Their amps at entry level are fine performers for the money but I'd suspect not quite in the same league as Rotel.

Idleater

If you can afford the rotel gear i'd recommend it. It is probably the cheapest of the brands mentioned by viperirl above, but does work very well with b&w speakers.

cheapskate

Hey thanks guys,

Yes I think you guys are right yet again, If only I'd listen!
I spoken the Cloney guys and I think I'll be going with the Rotel RSX 1550 in Black (very important accoustically:D)
The FPM's are ordered along with the PV1 but there is a delay in Black PV1's until end of April! (as I ordered the Plasma w/o speakers I'm not getting to enjoy it much so far)
Whenever I get around to installing them I'll give some feedback!

I'm wondering though is it worth upgrading the rear surrounds? (FPM 4's instead of FPM 2's as the 2's look very small);

Secondly should the surround Left and Right be sized similar to the Rear Left and Right in a 7.1 setup or should one be specced higher?

And last but not least which is better RSX 1550 (Class AB Amp) RSX 1560 (Class D amp) I know what they mean i.e. Class D on Demand, better efficency

Thanks again for your help and advice,

CS

viperirl

cheapskate wrote: »

Hey thanks guys,
Secondly should the surround Left and Right be sized similar to the Rear Left and Right in a 7.1 setup or should one be specced higher?

And last but not least which is better RSX 1550 (Class AB Amp) RSX 1560 (Class D amp) I know what they mean i.e. Class D on Demand, better efficency

CS

The rears are less important than the surrounds. Better to put more of your cash into the surrounds. That said, the front 3 speakers are by far the most important.


As for the type of amps you mentioned, in general AB amps have the edge sonically but Class D are very capable also. They generate less heat and consume far less power. My Krell amp is a Class A and the top of it gets so hot you could fry an egg on it. Unfortunately this has driven my electricity bill up a fair bit. No regrets though.

On the Rotels above, have a listen to both of them yourself and decide. I dont think you should be basing your decision on whether an amp is Class AB or Class D though.

Idleater

viperirl wrote: »

On the Rotels above, have a listen to both of them yourself and decide. I dont think you should be basing your decision on whether an amp is Class AB or Class D though.

Sonically I have no problem with the class D's so choice may come down to positioning of the amp.

If you want to "rack mount" or at least place equipment closer together than the recommended seperation, then you will be able to push the class d much further than the A or AB ones. I think most amps now have protection circuits which kick in to prevent it melting under circumstances, but my experience of having the equipment in a cupboard above underfloor heating, is that the Processor (using 80w when in use) is warmer than the amps (7x100w).

Just to note for digiphobes :pac: : class D amps are not digital, although it does use digital timings to regulate the output voltage.

common one

The best way to get prices is to deal directly with any hi fi dealer in the UK who carries the range. I bought a pair of 703s and a supernait (naim) amp in London last February and even allowing for shipping costs I could not gave gotten a better deal here. Its a good time to buy

hubiedubie

If you're looking for a good match for 805s or B&W speakers in general, I highly recommend the Bel Canto range. I had a pair of REF1000s powering my 803Ds and they were by far the best match for them I've heard (miles ahead of Rotel and Arcam). They are class D amps. You can pick them fairly cheap on Audiogon second hand. They are distributed in the UK through a company called Aanvil Audio but are way more expensive purchased this way. There is an integrated S300 or M300 power amps which would go well with the 805s.

Slaphead07

Classe or Krell are the usual partners for B&W as they need a bit of welly. I've only ever heard Bel Canto paired with electrostatic speakers and they worked well, I'm a little surprised they work with B&W but I'm not that familiar with those amps - I presume those are solid state mono blocs rather than the Bel Canto valve based range of old?

hubiedubie

The REF1000s are actually based on the 500 Watt ICEPower switching amps (i think Rotel and Pioneer use these now too). Not too sure how they got them to sound so good - probably my favourite hifi purchase when I was into it.

Idleater

hubiedubie wrote: »

Not too sure how they got them to sound so good

Ask Bang & Olufson, they invented icepower and make the modules.

Bel Canto, Rotel, Pioneer, Apple etc all use the boards under licence.

I've also a sneaking suspicion that Rotel were early adopters.