Cavity pumped or solid insulation

niall_walsh

Hi all

was wondering if anyone had any views on cavity insulation? What would you rec? I have 100mm cavity and was wondering pros and cons of pumped insulation or 60mm kingspan?......any help would be appeciated.

Quazzie

Is this a new build or are you installing insulation as a retro fit? Sorry for the confusing its just you say "I have 100mm cavity" as if its a retro fit.

niall_walsh

sorry i should have explained. New Build.

Thanks

newbuild79

Hi. I am doing a new build at the moment too and have choosen to pump the 6" cavity with aerobead insulation. Hard to know what to do giving all the options that are out there

Quazzie

The truth of the matter is there is no definitive answer. For that I apolgize. 60mm Kingspan is just about the minimum standard at the moment, and will probably shortly be below standard. The pumped bead insulation is not without its faults and the only answers you will get on this is largely based on opinion. My personal opinion is to stay away from pumped bead for a few basic reasons.
1. It is almost impossible to prove if its done right. Anythig as little as small snot of morar stuck to a wall tie can casue the bead to stop spreading. Pockets of air within the pumped bead will lead to condensation and mould build up in the long run. One possible way around this would be to get thermal imaging of the house at the end of the build and this could highlight such spots, but this can be expensive.
2. If done wrong it is next to impossible to fully remove the beads.
3. I am still not convinced personally about the fact that water ingress is eradicated.

Make sure that if you choose pumped bead that the product system you buy holds a IAB cert.

There is a good debate about it on this thread and its well worth a read.
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=59059396#post59059396

This is also an interesting read.
http://www.askjeff.co.uk/cavity.html

In terms of insulation boards I found this an interesting read.
http://www.josephlittlearchitects.com/documents/cavity_wall_paper.pdf
(the last one is a pdf so might be best avoided if on dial up)

The summary is whatever way you go you will be wrong for some reasons, and right for others. Hopefully after reading through them links you might be able to make your mind up about which suits you. Best of luck and don't forget to come back and let us know how you get on with whichever method you choose.

RKQ

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=59059396#post59059396 Arsenal V Cardiff ?

Quazzie

Oops I must've linked the wrong post. I'll edit now.

RKQ

Is this the thread you meant?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055480758&highlight=pump+cavity+insulation&page=2

Quazzie

RKQ wrote: »

Is this the thread you meant?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055480758&highlight=pump+cavity+insulation&page=2

Yes. I can't edit the original OP for some reason. :confiused:

RKQ

Here another Thread :-
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055413924&page=3&highlight=pump+cavity+insulation

My personal opinion tends to be similar to Jeff Howell of the Sunday Telegraph. Time will tell.

Quazzie

RKQ wrote: »

Here another Thread :-
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055413924&page=3&highlight=pump+cavity+insulation

My personal opinion tends to be similar to Jeff Howell of the Sunday Telegraph. Time will tell.

I'm thinking the same, and with it near impossible to remove/replace it simply isn't worth the risk in my opinion

fatherbuzcagney

I have not heard of any problems from anyone that got the cavities pumped. Any reports that i have heard were positive. Has anyone got a bad job done that they could let me know about?

gizmo555

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

The pumped bead insulation is not without its faults and the only answers you will get on this is largely based on opinion.

I would beg to differ - the Irish and British Agrément boards have concluded following laboratory and field testing that a number of different pumped cavity insulation systems work as intended if installed in accordance with their certification and present no risk of water penetrating the cavity. This is not opinion - it is objective fact.

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

Make sure that if you choose pumped bead that the product system you buy holds a IAB cert.

Amen to that! You should also go to the IAB website:

http://www.nsai.ie/index.cfm/area/page/information/irishagrementboard

and download and read the certificate for the product you are considering. Then make sure your supplier follows the correct installation procedures.

Quazzie2002 wrote: »

This is also an interesting read.
http://www.askjeff.co.uk/cavity.html

Interesting critique of Jeff Howell's views here:

http://markbrinkley.blogspot.com/2005/11/on-cavity-wall-insulation.html

RKQ

gizmo555 wrote: »

I would beg to differ - the Irish and British Agrément boards have concluded following laboratory and field testing that a number of different pumped cavity insulation systems work as intended if installed in accordance with their certification and present no risk of water penetrating the cavity. This is not opinion - it is objective fact.

Different strokes..... if everything on a drawing could be done simply on site then we'd have great buildings but if whats done in a laboratory could be done 100% on site ... by highly trained and highly skilled installers... wow! that would be amazing, a real miracle!

OP its your house, your money, your risk!

sydthebeat

gizmo555 wrote: »

I would beg to differ - the Irish and British Agrément boards have concluded following laboratory and field testing that a number of different pumped cavity insulation systems work as intended if installed in accordance with their certification and present no risk of water penetrating the cavity. This is not opinion - it is objective fact.

not to doubt anything youve posted above, but just to let you know there are stories circulating about that dont paint the 'pumped bead' in a good light. The water proofing additive is also the glue, as far as ive been led to believe. ive heard one story about a guy who decided to break open a new door in an external wall after getting the cavity pumped, and basically the whole wall of bead poured in on him when he broke open a hole.

anything used in accordance to their certification should always be ok, its the improper installation that i would be worried about.

Quazzie

sydthebeat wrote: »

ive heard one story about a guy who decided to break open a new door in an external wall after getting the cavity pumped, and basically the whole wall of bead poured in on him when he broke open a hole.

I recently got my semi-D house done along with my neighbours, and we both noticed that the little beads were appearing all over the place for about a week after. We eventually tracked it to a hole they hadn't filled properly(or maybe the mortar just didn't take) We were then worried about how big a gap was left by the beads falling out.

sydthebeat wrote: »

anything used in accordance to their certification should always be ok, its the improper installation that i would be worried about.

Thats my main worry about them. In lab conditions they might be the best in the world but on site is a totally different situation. If I was getting it done I'd seriously consider an infra-red heat loss test afterwards

sydthebeat

can someone in the business confirm whether the glue is the waterproofing factor please... because if it is, and there's loose beads in the cavity........

gizmo555

RKQ wrote: »

Different strokes..... if everything on a drawing could be done simply on site then we'd have great buildings but if whats done in a laboratory could be done 100% on site ... by highly trained and highly skilled installers... wow! that would be amazing, a real miracle!

OP its your house, your money, your risk!

Can I suggest you read what I wrote? "the Irish and British Agrément boards have concluded following laboratory and field testing that a number of different pumped cavity insulation systems work as intended if installed in accordance with their certification and present no risk of water penetrating the cavity."

Of course, if a crap job is done the result will be crap - not a huge insight and one which applies equally to any aspect of the building trades. All the same, I can't believe that the agrément boards certify products for use unless it is feasible for a reasonably competent tradesman to install them correctly.

RKQ

gizmo555 wrote: »

Can I suggest you read what I wrote?

I have read it and the tone is fairly strong.
You have your opinion and I have mine. This is allowed in a democracy. The one that shouts the loudest or the most is not always right.

I suggest you look into a cavity as it is built. Note the pointing to the internal sides of blocks within the cavity, note the inevitable mortar "snots" that even the finest Blockers can not avoid. Look at the wall-ties, vertical dpc's etc.

The best built walls, by the most skilled Block-layer will be difficult to fill with bead perfectly 100%, similar to Laboratory conditions. A 40mm cavity will be extremely difficult if not impossible to get right.

Factory formed prefabricated walls / units are desired because quality of materials and workmanship is easier to control, in a warm, dry factory.

Building on a wet and windy site bears no relation to a laboratory - even will highly skilled individuals. Only a niave or inexperienced individual would not appreciate or understand this point, I am sure you are neither of these.

I have given my opinion, as have others, so let the OP decide. I do not work for any Bead manufacturer, distributer or installer.

gizmo555

RKQ wrote: »

I have read it and the tone is fairly strong.
You have your opinion and I have mine. This is allowed in a democracy. The one that shouts the loudest or the most is not always right.

Of course it's allowed. My opinion is you latched on to the single word "laboratory" in my post, ignoring the overall context, to make a snide and spurious comment.

RKQ wrote: »

The best built walls, by the most skilled Block-layer will be difficult to fill with bead perfectly 100%, similar to Laboratory conditions. A 40mm cavity will be extremely difficult if not impossible to get right.

This may well be true but is irrelevant to the OP's situation - he has a 100mm cavity. As far as I have seen, these products are generally certified for use in a minimum existing cavity of 50mm.

RKQ wrote: »

Factory formed prefabricated walls / units are desired because quality of materials and workmanship is easier to control, in a warm, dry factory.

Again, 100% accurate, but 100% irrelevant to the OP's situation.

RKQ wrote: »

I do not work for any Bead manufacturer, distributer or installer.

Ditto.

RKQ

Same old aggressive tone....
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=58967908#post58967908 :eek:

Factory formed prefabricated walls / units are desired because quality of materials and workmanship is easier to control, in a warm, dry factory. This is completely relevant to the OP, read his post - new build block work walls - not factory made therefore not 100% perfect, therefore unlikely to install bead perfectly, 100% without voids! or sagging of material.

cork1

from my experience id pump it if i were you. ive never yet met a mason capable of putting in the solid stuff without leaving gaps

japbyrne

if you go with partial fill, lay down the law with your builder, block layer,
and make regular visits.

suitseir

Found this post on a search as I am thinking of going down the route of pumped bead insulation. Just wondered if the posters on this thread have any further up dates?

I hope to do the attic as well? Question: Do you have to do the whole job in order to qualify for the grant i.e. attic and walls or can the attic be done first? This is what I want to do firstly as I am waiting for proceeds of sale of house (well part thereof) before going ahead with the rest, if at all I go ahead with this type of wall insulation.

Any advice will be much appreciated.

tred

I pumped mine. Dont skimp. Get a reputable certifiied company.
I spotted enough on sites, as they were cutting the board with the back of the trowel!. There are pros and cons to all systems. The key to both is the guys putting it in. Throw the thermal imagining at them, tell them ur doing that, whether you are or not!!